Testimony Of William H. Shelley

The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 3 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a continuation of your deposition. You are still under oath, you understand that?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter.
Mr. BALL. And how did they get there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them in and stopped by to see us.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle the guns?
Mr. SHELLEY. I held the .22.
Mr. BALL. And was there another make of gun too---there was, wasn't there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle that?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. What happened to the guns?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he putts them back in the box and goes out of the door.
Mr. BALL. And did you ever see them again?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at any time after 12?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the shooting, do you?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where there was a window open?
Mr. SHELLEY. Not all the way; they had it blocked off.
Mr. BALL. Did you at a later time go over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for several days afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Did you several days afterward go over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. After they released us to go back to work in the corner. We kept out for several days.
Mr. BALL. When you went back there, were there two Rolling Readers on top of a larger box?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. The boxes---the Rolling Readers were there.
Mr. BALL. They were?
Mr. SHELLEY. But the boxes that they were originally packed in were gone--- they had been carried up to the police station.
Mr. BALL. You have seen pictures of the window, haven't you?
Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. With the larger box on the floor and two Rolling Readers on the top?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. One Rolling Reader resting in the sill of the window?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers were stacked three aisles away, I believe you testified, haven't you, before?
Mr. SHELLEY. I'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, but it was at least three aisles.
Mr. BALL. Away from the southeast corner?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were at least half way across the building from this corner.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out of the stack and over there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else.
Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor.
Mr. BALL. They were?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were little boxes. The rest of them are pretty good sized.
Mr. BALL. You had had a special place for the Rolling Readers?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then, the two Rolling Readers that were over in the southeast corner were out of place, were they?
Mr. SHELLEY. They sure were.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them out of place before?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen those Rolling Readers in that corner before?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor.
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. SHELLEY. You, mean the one under the Rolling Readers?
Mr. BALL. The one under the Rolling Readers.
Mr. SHELLEY. It was a carton of "Think and Do" books, first-grade level.
Mr. BALL. "Think and Do" books?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Of the first-grade level?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Those cartons were larger than the Rolling Readers, aren't they?
Mr. SHELLEY. About four time as large.
Mr. BALL. Can you describe their size in inches?
Mr. SHELLEY. I would say they are around 22 long, 18 wide, and 20 tall, approximately.
Mr. BALL. What would you say is the size---was the size of the Rolling Reader?
Mr. SHELLEY. It's about 12 inches long---6 by 6.
Mr. BALL. Now, was there a place where things and those books were usually stacked on the sixth floor?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. Along the west wall all the way across.
Mr. BALL. You had been doing work up there that day, had you?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I mean the east wall; I'm sorry.
Mr. BALL. Had they ever been in the west wall?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the west wall.
Mr. BALL. On the west wall?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the west wall; I mean the east wall.
Mr. BALL. Then, the "Think and Do" books were on the east wall?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And piled how many cartons high?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there were some of them as high as eight high.
Mr. BALL. Then, this carton of "Think and Do" books that was on the floor, near the window, under the two Rolling Readers, was stacked--would have been stacked along the east wall?
Mr. SHELLEY. No; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying the floor, we had to reeve all of the stock over there, including that particular type.
Mr. BALL. Then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these "Think and Do" book cartons?
Mr. SHELLEY. They are on the south side--along the south side of the building. We just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and then the row went right on back toward the west wall.
Mr. BALL. Along the west wall?
Mr. SHELLEY. We started rolling it east and then it went back west and as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see.
Mr. BALL. There was also a Carton of books where they found some handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? Don't you?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that carton?
Mr. SHELLEY. That was another carton of "Think and Do" books--sixth grade.
Mr. BALL. Where were those cartons usually stacked?
Mr. SHELLEY. They were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall.
Mr. BALL. About where that was found, was it not?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, the "Think and Do" books for the first-grade level, that was underneath the two Rolling Readers; was that out of place?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How far away from the place where those books were usually stacked?
Mr. SHELLEY. Where they were previously stacked was over near the west wall.
Mr. BALL. But where you had rolled them to; how far was it?
Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, about 3 feet.
Mr. BALL. About 3 feet?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And the "Think and Do" books, sixth-grade level, where the piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its proper place?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall on the cast side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of some more. There was an empty spot there and this one particular carton was sitting on it there.
Mr. BALL. By itself?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; by itself. By the side where the rest of them were.
Mr. BALL. Now, Lee Oswald was a checker, wasn't he?
Mr. SHELLEY. An order filler.
Mr. BALL. An order filler?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And do you recall that when he came to work he used a clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; all of the boys do.
Mr. BALL. All the boys use clipboards?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know where Oswald got the clipboard he used?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip on it and it was homemade---he could have made it himself.
Mr. BALL. You don't know who made it?
Mr. SHELLEY. No; I'm not for sure.
Mr. BALL. Were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth floor?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was Frankie Kaiser that found that and came down and told me and I told Mr. Pinkston with the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you go up and look at it?
Mr. SHELLEY. I went up with him and he got it.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a name on it?
Mr. SHELLEY. I think it had Frankie's name on it--Frankie Kaiser's name. He said he thought that might have been one he had made before he was all times making them.
Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. Your other deposition is going to come down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one.
Mr. SHELLEY. OK; I was coming back up the next day and we were awful busy down there is the reason I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and initial them. That's all, and thank you.
Mr. SHELLEY. All right; thank you.