Groden Goes to CourtDay Two At the O.J. Simpson Trial
|
Groden Goes to Court Day Two At the O.J. Simpson Trial |
1
1 SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1996
2 9:14 A.M.
3 DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE
4 APPEARANCES: (AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
5
6 (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)
7
8 (The jurors resumed their
9 respective seats.)
10
11 THE COURT: Morning.
12 MR. PETROCELLI: Morning.
13 JURORS: Morning.
14 MR. GELBLUM: Based on Mr. Leonard's
15 representation that he has only three or four minutes
16 left, he's asked to reopen, and we've agreed. It's
17 three or four minutes.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 THE CLERK: Sir, you are still understand oath.
20 Would you state your name again for the
21 record.
22 THE WITNESS: Robert Groden.
23 THE CLERK: Thank you.
24 MR. LEONARD: Morning, Mr. Groden.
25 THE WITNESS: Morning
26
27
28
2
1 ROBERT GRODEN
2 the witness on the stand at the time of adjournment on
3 Wedensday, Decmeber 18, 1996, having been previously
4 duly sworn, was examined and testified further as
5 follows:
6
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
8 BY MR. LEONARD:
9 Q. Mr. Groden, did we have an opportunity
10 yesterday to come to the courtroom and work a little
11 more with the Elmo machine?
12 A. Yes, we did.
13 Q. As a result of that, were you able to
14 illustrate a couple of these points a little bit
15 better?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, with the Court's
19 permission, I'd ask that Mr. Groden be permitted to
20 walk down, and I can examine him from the Elmo, so he
21 can manipulate it.
22 And what I'd like to -- what I'd like to
23 do is, display one image that you -- but he's going to
24 point out some of these elements again.
25 We really need to turn all the lights out
26 in the courtroom, if that's acceptable, just for 30
27 seconds.
28 THE COURT: All right.
3
1 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.
2 MR. P. BAKER: The photograph on the machine is
3 1931.
4
5 (The instrument herein referred to
6 as Blow-up from the 1-1 photograph
7 purported to be Mr. Simpson's left
8 leg, was marked for identification
9 as Defendants' Exhibit No. 1931.)
10
11 MR. LEONARD: As soon as you're set up, turn
12 the lights out.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 THE COURT: Yes?
15 JUROR: I just need to ask the deputy something
16 real quickly, if you don't mind.
17 Pardon me.
18 THE BAILIFF: May I approach?
19
20 (Bailiff and court converse sotto
21 voce.)
22
23 THE COURT: (The Court indicates to candy.)
24 JUROR: Thank you. My fellow juror has saved
25 me.
26
27
28
4
1 (One juror hands another juror a
2 cough drop.
3 Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Do you have the -- do
4 you have the image in the position you want it, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE COURT: You're going to have to speak
7 loudly, because we can't hear you.
8 THE WITNESS: All right.
9
10(Lights are switched off.)
11
12 Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Now, can you -- first
13 of all, just so the record is clear, this is a --
14 would you describe what this is?
15 A. This is a close-up of the left leg from
16 the 1-1 photograph or a blow-up of the 1-1 photograph
17 purported to be Mr. Simpson's leg.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Now, why don't you show again, the
20 anomaly that you discovered in this portion of the
21 photograph.
22 A. Yes. What we were describing the other
23 day is this area along here (indicating), this darker
24 area with the vertical stripes on it, that looks very
25 much like a worm, or a retouching mark. It alternates
26 back light and so on, and so on, which -- what appears
27 to be brush strokes or digital domain, could be
28 interpreted as being cleaning, which is a way of
5
1 duplicating one specific area within the photograph
2 and putting it to another point.
3 This is an anomaly that is not common.
4 This is not graphic grain; it does not appear in any
5 way to be photographic grain, but does appear to be
6 retouching.
7 Q. There another elements on the other leg
8 that you wanted to illustrate a little more clearly?
9 A. Yes, there is.
10
11(Witness adjusts Elmo.)
12
13 The horizontal line I discussed is this
14 (indicating), where it is lighter, below that point
15 and darker above. And at the point where the
16 horizontal line goes through the line there, is what
17 appears to be obvious retouching or some anomaly that
18 does not belong. This is not part of the actual,
19 original photograph.
20 That pretty much displays it as much as
21 we can with this.
22 MR. LEONARD: Okay.
23 We can turn the lights back on.
24
25(Bailiffs comply.)
26
27 MR. LEONARD: You may retake the stand.
28
6
1(Witness complies.)
2
3 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, with that, I don't
4 have any further questions on direct.
5 THE COURT: Okay. You may cross-examine.
6 MR. GELBLUM: Thank you, Your Honor.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. GELBLUM:
10 Q. Morning, Mr. Groden.
11 A. Morning.
12 Q. You're aware, sir, aren't you, that
13 you're not the first person the defense hired to
14 examine this photograph?
15 MR. LEONARD: Misstates the evidence, Your
16 Honor.
17 Q. You're not aware what your -- that the
18 defense retained a man named Pat Clark, who took the
19 photographs -- Buffalo, New York --
20 THE COURT REPORTER: Your Honor, I didn't get
21 that question. I'm sorry.
22 MR. BAKER: Since it was stricken, we ask it
23 not be repeated.
24 THE COURT: No, you will not repeat it. You
25 will approach the bench.
26 MR. GELBLUM: I will, Your Honor.
27
28 (The following proceedings were
7
1 held at the bench, with the
2 reporter.)
3
4 MR. PETROCELLI: I was present at the Scull
5 deposition with Mr. Baker in Buffalo, New York, and he
6 had a man by the name of Pat Clark, from Hy Zazula
7 Associates present at the deposition.
8 A break was taken, and Mr. Clark, with a
9 magnifying glass and some lights, looked at the
10 negatives and looked at all the subject photos while
11 we're at the Scull deposition, over a period of time
12 in the course of the deposition. And his name is
13 identified right here (indicating) on the record.
14 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that --
15 MR. PETROCELLI: Now, because --
16 THE COURT: -- with regards to this witness?
17 MR. PETROCELLI: We're entitled to know whether
18 this witness is aware of the fact that there has been
19 another examination of that photo by the defense, and
20 what that expert's opinion was -- that expert opined
21 that it was an authentic photograph, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: You may ask him whether or not he's
23 aware of an opinion by somebody else in forming his
24 own opinion, but that's it.
25 MR. GELBLUM: Whether he's aware --
26 THE COURT: You can't get into the fact that
27 some other expert examined it through this witness.
28 MR. PETROCELLI: If he's aware of it --
8
1 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
2 MR. PETROCELLI: He relied on this deposition.
3 He read this deposition. That was brought out on
4 direct examination, that this is one of the pieces of
5 information that he relied on in rendering his
6 opinion.
7 MR. GELBLUM: In the transcript, it says
8 that -- it refers to the fact that he examined the
9 photographs, Mr. Clark, and he's read this deposition.
10 MR. LEONARD: Wait.
11 MR. BAKER: Your Honor, we're entitled -- and
12 we had, because we had never seen this photo, and we
13 were entitled to, and had a consultant there. That
14 consultant was never named as an expert in the case;
15 he was simply a consultant and to help me -- I'm not a
16 photo expert -- to ask questions. And he did
17 certainly look the at the photo.
18 They're not entitled to any -- ask any
19 questions about consultants that we had.
20 THE COURT: Did this consultant testify?
21 MR. PETROCELLI: No, he never testified, Your
22 Honor.
23 THE COURT: Then what's the relevance?
24 MR. PETROCELLI: Whether he relied on anything
25 that person said or did, which is part of the
26 deposition on which this witness relied upon in giving
27 his distinct opinion.
28 MR. BAKER: He did not. There's nothing in
9
1 this deposition about Mr. Pat Clark's opinion. It's
2 just a cheap shot.
3 THE COURT: Just a minute. Show me where he
4 stated an opinion.
5 MR. PETROCELLI: Whose opinion?
6 MR. GELBLUM: He didn't.
7 THE COURT: Their expert.
8 MR. PETROCELLI: He did not state an opinion.
9 This fellow, on direct, stated as part of his
10 testimony, that he relied on this deposition
11 transcript.
12 THE COURT: Excuse me. What is it that he
13 relied on with respect to the other expert?
14 MR. PETROCELLI: That's what we're trying to
15 find out, when he talked to him.
16 THE COURT: Excuse me?
17 MR. PETROCELLI: When he talked to --
18 THE COURT: Did the expert say anything about
19 those photographs?
20 MR. PETROCELLI: Did this fellow --
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. PETROCELLI: -- talk on the record? No.
23 THE COURT: Then it's sustained.
24 MR. PETROCELLI: On what theory?
25 THE COURT: On the theory there's nothing in
26 here which he relied upon with regards to his opinion.
27 MR. PETROCELLI: Suppose this fellow had a
28 conversation with Mr. Clark?
10
1 THE COURT: Why don't you ask him that.
2 MR. PETROCELLI: That's what we want to ask
3 him; that's what we're trying to do.
4 MR. BAKER: I'll represent to the Court they've
5 never spoken.
6 THE COURT: You can ask whether they spoke,
7 period.
8 MR. PETROCELLI: Fair enough.
9 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, why didn't they ask
10 him that at his deposition?
11 He never spoke to him.
12 THE COURT: Beats the hell out of me. And it
13 doesn't matter.
14
15 (The following proceedings were
16 held in open court, in the
17 presence of the jury.)
18
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, you ever
20 spoken with a gentleman named Pat Clark at Hy Zazula
21 and Associates in New York City?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Before you took this assignment,
24 Mr. Groden, you knew that the defendant and his
25 lawyers were trying to prove the picture was a fake,
26 right?
27 A. I knew there was an issue relating to
28 that, yes.
11
1 Q. You knew the defendant and his lawyers
2 were trying to prove the picture was a fake?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That's argumentative.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) The answer is yes, you
7 did know that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you knew you wouldn't be asked to
10 come to court to testify unless you said it was a
11 fake, right?
12 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A. I would assume I would not have been
15 called if I'd have not found that.
16 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) How much time did you
17 spend with Mr. Leonard preparing for your testimony,
18 on Wednesday?
19 A. Two or three hours.
20 Q. You went over your opinion you would
21 be --
22 A. Basically, we went over photographs that
23 morning, nothing else.
24 Q. And you went over what you -- what you
25 were going to say when you got on the stand, correct?
26 A. We discussed, yes, things relating to the
27 photographs.
28 Q. You looked at photographs?
12
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Leonard looked at the photographs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you and he both had the contact
5 sheets that we have today, so you had all the pictures
6 in front of you?
7 A. We had the two contact sheets and the
8 enlargements that we discussed, yes.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Leonard asked you whether you
10 were a professional witness, and you said you were
11 not; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And you're also not a professional photo
14 analyst, are you?
15 A. Well, I've been paid.
16 Q. Yes-or-no question, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You are?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And have you ever had any formal training
21 in analyzing photographs?
22 A. I have my own experience, yes.
23 Q. The question was asked, have you ever had
24 any formal training in learning how to determine
25 whether a photograph is authentic?
26 A. No.
27 Q. You've never taught a course in
28 photography, right?
13
1 A. No.
2 Q. Never published anything in the field of
3 questioned photographs, correct?
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 MR. GELBLUM: I can ask again:
7 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You never published
8 anything in the field of questioned photographs,
9 correct?
10 MR. LEONARD: Withdrawn.
11 A. That's not true.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Remember having your
13 deposition taken in this case --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- just couple months ago?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Page 43, line 24, Mr. Leonard.
18 Remember being asked this question:
19
20(Reading:)
21
22 Q. And you've never published
23 anything in the area -- in the field of
24 questioned photographs?
25 A. Like a textbook?
26 Q. Anything.
27 A. No.
28 Remember giving that testimony?
14
1 A. Relating to a textbook situation, yes;
2 but I have spoken about --
3 Q. Mr. Groden --
4 A. -- photographs.
5 Q. Mr. Groden, you don't have to make an
6 argument.
7 A. I'm not trying to.
8 Q. Remember giving that testimony that you
9 had never published anything in the field of
10 questioned photographs?
11 A. We've clarified it as a textbook. In
12 that case, yes; that is true.
13 Q. Would you like to see it?
14 Let me put the testimony up on the Elmo.
15 There was a second question, sir, page
16 43, line 24. See that, sir?
17 (Reading:)
18 Q. And you never published
19 anything in the area of the in the field
20 of questioned photographs.
21 A. Like a textbook?
22 Q. Anything.
23 A. No.
24 You see that?
25 A. Yes, I see that.
26 MR. GELBLUM: Okay. You can take it off.
27(Mr. Foster complies.)
28
15
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Would you tell the jury
2 which professional organizations you belong to in the
3 field of questioned photographs?
4 A. None.
5 Q. How about in the -- the field of
6 photography with a professional organization?
7 A. None.
8 Q. Do you know the names of any professional
9 organizations that deal with questioned photographs?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you certified by any professional
12 organization in the area of authenticating
13 photographs?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever received any awards for
16 photo analysis work?
17 A. Directly, no.
18 Q. And before this case, you've never
19 qualified to testify as an expert in court, have you?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. This is your first time in court as an
22 expert, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Pretty exited about doing this?
25 A. Not particularly.
26 Q. New way for you to make some money?
27 A. Strange question.
28 Q. Can you answer it?
16
1 A. Would you repeat the question.
2 Q. Yeah.
3 You see this as a new way for you to make
4 some money in your career, sir, testifying as an
5 expert in court?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How much you being paid, by the way?
8 A. About $8,000.
9 Q. That's how much you've been paid so far?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What's your daily rate?
12 A. $2,000.
13 Q. Per day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And have you been paid everything you've
16 billed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And have you done some work you haven't
19 billed for yet?
20 A. I'm here today. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. You already got paid for
22 Wednesday --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- did you?
25 A. That's not true.
26 Yes, I have been, yes.
27 Q. That's pretty serious money for you,
28 isn't it, Mr. Groden, $8,000?
17
1 A. Not really, no.
2 Q. Well, as recently as a few months ago,
3 weren't you spending some of your time out on the
4 street in Dealey Plaza, hawking videotapes?
5 A. I was selling my videotapes, yes.
6 Q. Out on the street in Dallas?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, why don't you tell the jury what you
9 do for a living?
10 A. I'm a writer.
11 Q. What do you write about?
12 A. The assassination of President Kennedy.
13 Q. Mr. Leonard asked you something about if
14 you retained an interest in the Kennedy assassination
15 since the late '70s. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Little more than an interest in it, isn't
18 it, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It's your life, isn't it?
21 A. It's my life's work.
22 Q. Okay.
23 How many books have you written about the
24 Kennedy assassination?
25 A. I've been involved in writing five books
26 on the case.
27 Q. You haven't written a book about any
28 other subject, have you?
18
1 A. No.
2 Q. And how many videotapes did you produce
3 about the Kennedy assassination?
4 A. Two.
5 Q. Was one of them reedited, and -- two
6 forms of one of them?
7 A. That's correct, yes.
8 Q. Which one is that?
9 A. It's called JFK, The Case for Conspiracy.
10 Q. And you also have consulted on some
11 movies about the Kennedy assassination?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is there anything else you do for a
14 living?
15 A. Right now, no.
16 Q. Can you tell the jury what the JFK
17 Presidential Limo Tour is, sir?
18 A. The JFK Limo Tour is a recreation of the
19 motorcade route for students of history, people who
20 are concerned with the issues of the assassination.
21 And it -- it started, I believe, last August in
22 Dallas.
23 Q. And what's your role in that?
24 A. Now?
25 Q. Yeah.
26 A. None.
27 Q. You had some role in August?
28 A. Yes.
19
1 Q. And you would write, and what happens is,
2 they take -- is it a mock-up of the actual
3 presidential limo that President Kennedy was shot in?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You drive that from Love Field, where he
6 landed that day, and take that route, and end up at
7 Parkland Hospital?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You have speakers in the car that have
10 the gunshots and things like that --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you sit in the car and narrate?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you not repair photo-processing
15 machines anymore?
16 A. I haven't in many, many months.
17 Q. Are you doing any photo processing these
18 days?
19 A. Not these days, no.
20 Q. When did you stop doing that work?
21 A. Possibly, last summer. I would say a
22 year ago this past summer.
23 Q. Before your deposition on September 27?
24 A. Of this year?
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Don't you recall telling me on
28 September 27, that you repair photo-processing
20
1 machines?
2 A. I do.
3 You just asked me whether I was still
4 doing it now, and I said I haven't done it in several
5 months.
6 Q. You said you stopped before your
7 deposition, right?
8 A. Well, I would still do it if the
9 opportunity came up. I'm not doing it now.
10 Q. Okay.
11 But you weren't doing it at the time of
12 the deposition, even though you told me you were,
13 right?
14 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, Mr. Leonard asked
17 you some questions on Wednesday about the House Select
18 Committee on Assassination. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the only one congressional
21 committee you've been a consultant to?
22 A. As a formal consultant, yes.
23 Q. Now, in terms of your education, you
24 dropped out of high school after the 11th grade; is
25 that right?
26 A. That's correct.
27 Q. Okay. Then you spent a year in the Army?
28 A. That's correct.
21
1 Q. And a year of college in the Army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. No photographic courses during that year?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Am I correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why did you leave the Army after one
8 year?
9 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Not relevant.
10 THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not.
11 MR. LEONARD: Can we approach?
12 THE COURT: You may.
13
14 (The following proceedings were
15 held at the bench, with the
16 reporter.)
17
18 MR. GELBLUM: What our argument, Your Honor, is
19 going to be, is that this man is not playing with a
20 full deck and was discharged from the Army; it is
21 related to that.
22 THE COURT: Excuse me?
23 MR. GELBLUM: His discharge from the Army is
24 related to instability.
25 MR. LEONARD: What?
26 THE COURT: You have to be a little more
27 specific than that.
28 MR. GELBLUM: Medical reasons relating to his
22
1 inability to cope with military life.
2 MR. LEONARD: What does that have to do with
3 anything?
4 MR. GELBLUM: Our contention is that this man
5 is not a particularly stable person. He doesn't have
6 any business testifying in court at all, much less as
7 an expert.
8 MR. LEONARD: Number one is, why wasn't this
9 raised during the voir dire, if you felt he was
10 unstable. You were making an argument that he wasn't
11 an expert.
12 Number two, how can you -- the guy's 51
13 years old -- you're trying to connect up a problem
14 which he may or may not have had when he was 18 years
15 old to now. Is that what you're trying to do, based
16 on -- on a -- on perceived problems he had in the
17 Army? How is that relevant?
18 MR. GELBLUM: Remember, Dan, you went back to
19 when he was 12 or 13 years old when his interest in
20 photography --
21 MR. LEONARD: I remember, yeah.
22 MR. GELBLUM: This is more recent.
23 THE COURT: I'll allow you reasonable --
24 MR. GELBLUM: It's just one question. I'm just
25 going to ask him the reason. Whatever he says --
26 THE COURT: All right.
27
28
23
1 (The following proceedings were
2 held in open court, in the
3 presence of the jury.)
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Sir, you left the Army
5 after only one year because of some health problem; is
6 that right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. What was the problem?
9 A. Sinus problems.
10 Q. Sinus?
11 A. Sinus problems.
12 There are actually two -- two separate
13 issues. One was a sinus problem that they were not
14 able to resolve, and the second was the fact that I
15 was -- I was beaten up by a sergeant. And to sweep it
16 under the rug, they gave me a discharge instead.
17 Q. Did you have some inability to cope with
18 military life, sir?
19 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative,
20 irrelevant.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 A. Did I?
23 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Yeah.
24 A. I coped with it for a year until the
25 discharge.
26 Q. Didn't you testify before the Rockefeller
27 Commission, sir, in the 1970s sometime?
28 A. Yes.
24
1 Q. Didn't you tell them the reason you left
2 the Army was you had an inability to cope with
3 military life, having something to do with a medical
4 problem?
5 A. I don't recall what I said to them back
6 then.
7 Q. Would you like to see your testimony?
8 A. Sure.
9
10(Mr. Gelblum hands document to
11 witness.)
12
13 MR. LEONARD: Can I see it, Counsel?
14 MR. GELBLUM: Before he gives the answer.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Wait. Before you give
16 this answer, do you recognize this as your Rockefeller
17 Commission testimony?
18 A. No, I don't, but it might well be.
19 MR. GELBLUM: Want to look it over?
20 MR. LEONARD: May we have a date?
21 MR. GELBLUM: I don't -- I have just an
22 excerpt.
23 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, can we approach?
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) When did you testify
25 before the Rockefeller Commission?
26 A. I believe 1975.
27 Q. Does that look like your testimony?
28 A. I can't say that it is; I can't say it
25
1 isn't.
2 I don't recognize this as my testimony.
3 Q. You don't?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You sure you testified before the
6 Rockefeller Commission?
7 A. Yes. Oh, yes.
8 Q. What did you testify about?
9 A. About the Kennedy assassination.
10 Q. Remember being questioned at length about
11 your credentials?
12 A. No, I don't have any --
13 Q. Why don't you read that over.
14
15(Witness reviews document.)
16
17 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You recognize that now
18 as your Rockefeller Commission testimony?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Is this a fake?
21 A. I don't know. I have not seen my
22 Rockefeller Commission testimony since I gave it.
23 Q. You don't remember being questioned about
24 your credentials by the Rockefeller Commission?
25 MR. LEONARD: Asked and answered.
26 A. It was more than 20 years ago.
27 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) That's when your
28 experience with altered photographs is, 20 years ago?
26
1 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Misstates his
2 testimony. It's argumentative.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, speaking about
5 that experience, Mr. Leonard had you talk about your
6 experience creating fake photographs on Wednesday.
7 Remember that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That was mostly what you talked about,
10 was creating advertisements with a can of hair spray
11 in the air. Remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, when that's created, what
14 elements -- is that created from that fake
15 advertising?
16 A. It -- it can vary. Depends on what's
17 submitted. It could be flat art; it could be slides;
18 it could be negatives; it could be photographic
19 prints. It could be any number of things.
20 Q. Those are things that are submitted and
21 created for the purpose of creating that composite
22 photograph, correct?
23 A. Um-hum, yes.
24 Q. It's not taking a photograph as to be
25 taken for some other purpose and altering it, correct?
26 A. That could happen if somebody wanted a
27 background that was taken for some other reason.
28 Q. Is -- you just said, generally speaking,
27
1 you're taking pictures or other elements that are made
2 for the purpose of creating this composite, and then
3 you create the composite, correct?
4 A. That's a fair assessment, yes.
5 Q. Now, you also testified on Wednesday that
6 you -- this is a quote -- "I believe I occasionally
7 consult with others regarding the authenticity of
8 photographs." Is that right?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. "Occasionally" means that, in your entire
11 life, there have been two times where somebody has
12 paid you to try to determine the authenticity of a
13 photograph, correct?
14 A. I can't say that's accurate, no.
15 Q. Do you remember testifying Wednesday
16 morning, outside the presence of the jury, sir, in
17 this courtroom?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And do you remember we talked about this,
20 and you identified two times where you had done that?
21 You going to change your testimony now?
22 A. I don't want to change anything.
23 What you asked me then, I do not believe
24 is what you asked me now.
25 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that in your entire
26 life, that you have been paid to determine whether a
27 photograph is authentic exactly twice?
28 A. That is not true.
28
1 Q. Okay. How many times, sir?
2 A. I can't tell you how many times. I can
3 tell you several occasions, more than two.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Did you forget to mention those at your
6 deposition two months ago, sir, three months ago?
7 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you remember having
10 your deposition taken?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Remember I asked you about all the times
13 you had been paid to determine the authenticity of
14 photographs?
15 Remember that question?
16 And you remember how many you listed?
17 A. I don't remember exactly how many. I
18 don't remember the terms of the question.
19 Q. In fact, at the time of the deposition,
20 you actually identified once, didn't you?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. Do you have a problem with your memory?
23 A. You've just asked me a question.
24 Q. Answer my question. Do you have a
25 problem --
26 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative.
27 THE COURT: Overruled.
28 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) This is a real
29
1 question, sir.
2 Do you have a problem with your memory?
3 A. My memory is not always the greatest.
4 Q. You've had some strokes, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did it affect your memory?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 I'd like to you look at --
10 MR. GELBLUM: Mr. Leonard, this is on pages 30
11 to 31 of the deposition.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) If you can review this,
13 sir, starting at page 30, line -- line 2 -- I'm sorry.
14 Up here, page 29, line 21, down to page 31 line 17.
15
16 (Witness reviews transcript.)
17
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Remember I asked you about jobs you had,
21 where somebody had paid you for determining the
22 authenticity of a photograph?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. You said the National Enquirer, 14 years
25 ago?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And then you said -- I asked you if there
28 were any others, and you said, "none I can think of
30
1 right at the moment"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you thought of another one?
4 A. How do you mean?
5 Q. Did you think of another one because you
6 told me at deposition there was the one?
7 A. No. During the deposition, you asked me,
8 except for the House Assassinations Committee.
9 Q. You weren't a paid consultant?
10 A. For the House Committee?
11 Q. Yeah.
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And your job there was what?
14 A. Many things, such as determining the
15 authenticity of photographs.
16 Q. Let me put aside the House Committee for
17 a second. We'll deal with that in quite a bit of
18 detail later on.
19 Putting that aside, how many times have
20 you been paid to determine the authenticity of a
21 photograph?
22 A. Not counting the House Assassinations
23 Committee, as I recall, twice.
24 Q. Twice.
25 So, a minute ago, when I asked you how
26 many times, you said you couldn't remember.
27 It's three, right? Two plus the house?
28 That's 3?
31
1 A. I did it several times for the House
2 Committee. It wasn't just once.
3 Q. That's one job, right? The House and
4 then two other jobs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 And let's talk about those two jobs.
8 One was the National Enquirer, 14 years
9 ago?
10 A. Approximately.
11 Q. That was something about a voodoo ritual?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in fact, you didn't have to examine
14 that closely; you looked at it and saw there was
15 static electricity that was causing the problem?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That wasn't an altered photograph, right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How much were you paid for that, by the
20 way?
21 A. I don't recall at all.
22 Q. You sure you got paid?
23 A. Pretty much so, yes.
24 Q. Now, the second one was -- was what?
25 What was your second job that you had
26 where somebody paid you to determine the authenticity
27 of a photograph?
28 MR. LEONARD: I assume we're still setting
32
1 aside the House --
2 MR. GELBLUM: We are indeed.
3 MR. LEONARD: Okay.
4 A. Someone came to me about -- about four
5 years ago, and had a series of photographs that
6 purported to show what was claimed to be spiritual
7 entities within a photograph. And I was asked to see
8 if I could find any evidence of tampering with the
9 photographs.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And again, it was
11 pretty easy to look at. You looked at it and saw
12 there was fogging on the print, right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Well, not a big, detailed analysis of
15 altered photographs, right?
16 A. Not to determine that, no.
17 Q. All right.
18 And again, putting aside the House
19 Committee for a minute, in addition to those two,
20 there's only one other time in your life when somebody
21 has asked to you determine the authenticity of a
22 photograph, where you didn't get paid, correct?
23 A. No, that's not true.
24 Q. Well --
25 Reading from your deposition, starting at
26 page 31, line 18.
27 Q. Now, tell me about any
28 time that you've worked for somebody
33
1 else, without getting paid, where the
2 job involved determining the
3 authenticity of a negative or a print.
4 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I'm going to object.
5 That is -- there's -- that's a different question than
6 he just asked. He asked if he had ever been asked by
7 anyone. Now's he asked him if he ever worked for
8 anyone. That's a different question. I object to
9 that.
10 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer it.
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) All right. Let me ask
12 you this one, sir, since we're apparently splitting
13 hairs up there.
14 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Move to strike that
15 statement.
16 THE COURT: Stricken.
17 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Other than the National
18 Enquirer and this other photo with the nothing gone,
19 and the -- and the spirits, how many times have you
20 worked for somebody without getting paid, determining
21 the authenticity of a photograph?
22 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 A. How would you define "worked?" Looking
25 at a photograph, studying it? What do you mean by
26 that?
27 Q. Well, did you just phase out for a
28 second?
34
1 Didn't you hear your counsel use the word
2 "work" and you nodded?
3 A. No. I nodded that you were
4 misrepresenting the question.
5 Q. I see.
6 Let's read the deposition now.
7 Now, tell me about any time that
8 you've worked for somebody else without
9 getting paid, where the job involved
10 determining the authenticity of a
11 negative or a print.
12 You didn't say anything about not
13 understanding the word "worked."
14
15 A. About a month ago, a new
16 photograph turned up in Dallas that
17 shows the road sign that's blocking the
18 view from Abraham (phonetic) section
19 up -- standpoint from where the
20 president was in this photograph, which
21 had never been seen before, seemed to
22 show what appeared to be a bullet hole
23 in the sign.
24 Now, if there had been a
25 bullet hole there, it would have been
26 very interesting, because it would have
27 proven other than what was found.
28 What it actually was, it
35
1 was just a printing mistake. The way I
2 determined that was the so-called bullet
3 hole was about 300 percent sharper than
4 the rest of the picture, which is a
5 physical impossibility with photographic
6 signs.
7 Q. Did you get the negative?
8 A. No, but I can get the
9 negative.
10 Q. What?
11 A. Just from the print
12 itself, I could determine that -- I
13 could determine that if it had been a
14 closer situation, if it hadn't been so
15 incredibly obvious to me, if it had
16 looked genuine, I would have had to -- I
17 would have to examine the negative to
18 determine one way or the other.
19 Q. Did you determine that was
20 a printing error or a deliberate
21 forgery?
22 A. No; it seemed to be an
23 error. It didn't seem to be a forgery.
24 Q. And that's the same thing
25 with the National Enquirer photo of the
26 spirit; it was static electricity in the
27 negative?
28 A. In that particular case,
36
1 yes.
2 MR. LEONARD: I'm going to object at this
3 point.
4 MR. GELBLUM: It's the next couple of
5 questions.
6 Q. Any other time where
7 somebody else has asked to you determine
8 whether a photograph was authentic?
9 A. None that I can think of
10 at the moment. But if I do, I'll let
11 you know.
12 Q. Now is the time?
13 A. No. I can't think of any
14 right now.
15 Remember that testimony?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you have a resume, don't you, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Leonard didn't use this yesterday,
20 but I want to show it to you.
21 MR. GELBLUM: If we could have this marked next
22 in order.
23 THE CLERK: 2284.
24
25
26 (The instrument herein referred to
27 as Copy of Mr. Groden's resume
28 was marked for identification as
37
1 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2284.)
2
3
4 MR. LEONARD: Peter, can I see a copy of that,
5 please.
6 MR. GELBLUM: Yes.
7
8 (Mr. Gelblum hands Plaintiffs'
9 Exhibit 2284 to the witness.)
10
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Take a look at that and
12 confirm if that's your resume -- actually, three pages
13 of a resume and another five pages of what you call a
14 profile?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you created this document, these
19 documents?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Now, this resume starts out on the first
22 page, work history, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the first entry is videotape
25 production and editing?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Let the jury see what are you're looking
28 at here.
38
1
2 (Document displayed on Elmo.)
3
4 Q. First entry is videotape production and
5 editing, next entry is photographic optical affects
6 experience, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you say in the second sentence there
9 that you've worked on many major motion pictures
10 including one called "Executive Action."
11 What did you do on that movie, sir?
12 A. I was a consultant, not hired by the
13 production company itself, but had made suggestions to
14 deal with the creation of motorcade footage relating
15 to the assassination.
16 In other words, finding relevant footage
17 and connecting between the production company as
18 liaison and the optical house where it was produced.
19 Q. Who did you make those suggestions to?
20 A. Well, among others, there were probably a
21 couple of researchers involved, I did, from the
22 optical house itself.
23 Q. You didn't get a credit on the film, did
24 you?
25 A. No.
26 Q. And on the second page -- I'm sorry, the
27 bottom of the first page, Steve, I apologize --
28 there's another heading down there, photographic
39
1 laboratory technician?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the second page you say you're
4 familiar with all portions of black-and-white lab
5 work; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then we get some management
8 experience, and there's your repair work, and then now
9 we get your photographic consultant work, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Now, the first sentence says:
13 (Reading:)
14 Robert Groden has been a photographic
15 consultant for the United States House
16 of Representatives since 1975.
17 Q. That's just not true, is it, sir?
18 A. It certainly is true.
19 Q. You just told us that you worked for the
20 House Select Committee in the late '70s and that's the
21 only committee you've been a consultant for, right?
22 A. That's true.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And that sentence goes on to say:
25 (Reading:)
26
27 And was staff photographic consultant
28 with the initial capital letters to the
40
1 House Select Committee on assassination
2 from 1975 to 1979.
3
4 Q. That's not true either, is it, sir?
5 A. It is true.
6 Q. Well, remember testifying here on
7 Wednesday? Was your memory that bad?
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. Remember testifying Wednesday, sir?
11 Do you remember testifying in this court
12 on Wednesday?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Two days ago?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember the dates you gave the
17 jury then?
18 A. From the middle of 1976 until the middle
19 of 1979.
20 Q. Right.
21 And this says 1975, right?
22 A. I was working with the people who were
23 creating the committee. I was helping raise support
24 for it.
25 Q. Oh, okay.
26 But you weren't, in fact, called a
27 consultant in 1975, were you?
28 A. No.
41
1 Q. Okay.
2 You then say that you authored the
3 dissenting opinion report for the Committee.
4 That's also not true, is it, sir?
5 A. It is true.
6 Q. Well, in fact what you wrote was
7 something called "comments" on the panel's report,
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 And the Committee printed a page before
12 your little comments saying that they disagreed with
13 you, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this was a panel of photographic
16 experts that you were a consultant to, right?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You disagreed with the panel of
19 photographic experts, right?
20 A. In many issues, yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And they did not adopt your conclusions
23 at all.
24 In fact, they rejected them, right?
25 A. They adopted some, they rejected some.
26 Q. This was not a dissenting report for the
27 Committee, this was just your little add-on that they
28 agreed to publish for you, right?
42
1 A. No, they asked me to publish my opinions.
2 Q. No.
3 You asked them if you could publish -- if
4 they would publish it, right?
5 A. I don't believe so.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Let's take a look.
8 I'm going to show you portions of the
9 appendix to the hearings, it's Volume 6 from the
10 Senate -- from the House Select Committee on
11 Assassinations, page 295.
12 MR. LEONARD: May I look, so I see that before
13 it's published in any way.
14 MR. GELBLUM: Yeah.
15
16 (Witness reviews document.)
17
18 Q. Is this your -- sorry, wrong side of the
19 pen.
20 Is this the letter you wrote to the
21 chairman of the Committee in January 3, 1979?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you asked them to publish it, right?
24 A. I was told by Jane Downey (phonetic) that
25 this is the form it should take.
26 Q. Somebody told you to ask them?
27 A. Yes, um-hum.
28 Q. Do you agree now that you did ask them?
43
1 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Q. Well, here's the preface that the
4 Committee wrote.
5 THE COURT: Why don't you show it to
6 Mr. Leonard if you're going to use it.
7 MR. GELBLUM: Sure.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Gelblum.
9
10 (Mr. Gelblum shows document to
11 Mr. Leonard.)
12
13 MR. GELBLUM: I think I may have an extra copy.
14
15 MR. LEONARD: Is this mine?
16 MR. GELBLUM: No.
17 MR. LEONARD: I'd love to keep it.
18 Okay, thanks.
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) See the last sentence
20 of the first paragraph. It says:
21 (Reading:)
22
23 As a consultant to the Committee, Groden
24 was given access to the work of the
25 photographic evidence panel and asked
26 that the Committee publish his comments
27 on the panel's report.
28
44
1 Q. Is that a true statement?
2 A. Yes, it's true.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. But only in the respect that's what I was
5 told I had -- the way I had to represent the question,
6 the issue.
7 MR. LEONARD: You going to read the rest of it
8 now or do I have to?
9 MR. GELBLUM: I'll read the rest of it later or
10 more of it later.
11 MR. BAKER: Can we have that identified by
12 number.
13 THE CLERK: Next in order.
14 2285.
15
16 (The instrument herein described
17 as a Curriculum Vitae of Robert
18 Groden was marked for
19 identification as Plaintiffs'
20 Exhibit No. 2285.)
21
22 THE COURT: What?
23 THE CLERK: 2285.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, you know a man
25 named Robert Blakey?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Who's that?
28 A. G. Robert Blakey is the -- or was the
45
1 director of the House Select Committee on
2 Assassinations.
3 Q. Say it again?
4 A. He was the director and chief counsel, as
5 I recall, of the House Select Committee on
6 Assassinations.
7 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I'm going to object
8 to this line of questioning.
9 May we approach briefly?
10 THE COURT: You may.
11
12 (The following proceedings were
13 held at the bench with the
14 reporter:)
15
16 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object to this. I
17 thought we were talking about the photographs in this
18 case. If he wants to go back and relitigate the
19 assassination, the conspiracy theory, we're willing to
20 do that.
21 I mean he's prepared to justify his
22 opinions in this case. I didn't ask him any of his
23 opinions in that case. I simply asked him if he was a
24 photographic consultant. He was.
25 The rest of that report says he made an
26 important contribution to the Committee.
27 MR. GELBLUM: That's one line.
28 MR. LEONARD: Yeah, it's an important line.
46
1 MR. GELBLUM: The rest of it says that they
2 disagree with him, he made lots of mistakes.
3 THE COURT: How much longer are you going to go
4 through this?
5 MR. GELBLUM: Not much further.
6 MR. LEONARD: I want an offer of proof.
7 MR. GELBLUM: You don't get it.
8 Your Honor, he's relying on this
9 Committee as his sole claim to fame for any
10 credibility of any kind of expertise.
11 MR. LEONARD: No, that's not true.
12 THE COURT: I'm not prepared to litigate the
13 contents of that report.
14 MR. GELBLUM: I'm not going to ask my more
15 questions about his report.
16 MR. LEONARD: That's an absolute misstatement.
17 His primary expertise is the fact that he
18 did this --
19 THE COURT: Mr. Leonard, you submitted that as
20 part of his qualifications. He has a right to
21 cross-examine.
22
23 (The following proceedings were
24 held in open court in the presence
25 of the jury.)
26
27 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Blakey was the
28 director of the Committee?
47
1 A. As I recall, the director and chief
2 counsel.
3 Q. Okay. You've heard him say that.
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You think Mr. Blakey
7 would vouch for your --
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant, hearsay.
9 THE COURT: Sustained. Argumentative.
10 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative. Ask the jury be
11 admonished.
12 THE COURT: Jury is admonished that anything
13 Mr. Blakey has said has not been received into
14 evidence. You're to disregard any reference thereto.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, your resume goes
16 on to say that he was called upon to testify about the
17 photographic evidence in the assassination of
18 President John F. Kennedy before four governmental
19 investigative bodies; the Rockefeller Commission --
20 that's the one you couldn't recognize in your
21 testimony, right?
22 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That's argumentative.
23 MR. GELBLUM: I showed him the transcript.
24 MR. LEONARD: That assumes the transcript is
25 authentic.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) When you did the
28 Rockefeller Commission, you were you showed the
48
1 Zapruder film?
2 A. Yes, among other things.
3 Q. You didn't testify about altered
4 photographs, did you?
5 A. I said it was 21 years ago. I don't
6 recall exactly what I testified to, but I know the
7 Zapruder film was one of the issues.
8 Q. Altered photographs was not one of the
9 issues, right?
10 A. I can't say that. I don't know that.
11 Q. You don't remember whether it was?
12 A. Over 20 years ago, no, I don't --
13 Q. The Senate Intelligence Committee, showed
14 them the Zapruder film?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What did you do with them?
17 A. Spoke about various issues relating to
18 the assassination questions that were raised by the
19 photographic evidence and the Zapruder film.
20 Q. What year was that?
21 A. As I recall, that was 19 -- probably --
22 probably around 1977 or so.
23 Q. You didn't testify about altered
24 photographs there, did you?
25 A. I don't recall.
26 Q. Okay.
27 And then we have the House Select
28 Committee, which we've talked about.
49
1 Then you say:
2 (Reading:)
3 I've been called upon to testify before
4 the Assassination Record Review Board.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is the Assassination Record Review
7 Board?
8 A. The Assassination Record Review Board
9 does -- an investigation is going on now to try to
10 determine what issues relating to the assassination,
11 photographic and documentary, should be released to
12 the public.
13 Q. You didn't testify, you didn't give
14 expert testimony before them about altered
15 photographs, did you?
16 A. I believe I did.
17 Q. Well, in fact, sir, you were deposed
18 twice by the Assassination Records Review Board
19 relating to your theft of photos from the government
20 when you worked in the House Select Committee,
21 correct?
22 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That -- There's a
23 lack of foundation. It's argumentative.
24 I'd asked to approach at this point.
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Isn't that correct?
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 You can answer yes or no.
28 A. No, that is not. If you're asking if I
50
1 stole photographs from the government, the answer is
2 absolutely no.
3 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) I'm asking you the
4 subject of what you put on your resume is your
5 testimony before the Assassination Records Review
6 Board, it was not expert testimony, it was depositions
7 that you were required to submit to about the subject
8 of your theft of government documents, correct?
9 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, first of all, there's
10 no inconsistency. It's also argumentative. It's --
11 MR. GELBLUM: This is a speaking objection.
12 MR. LEONARD: It's a lack of foundation.
13 I'd ask to approach.
14 This is character assassination. It has
15 nothing to do with the photographs in this case.
16 THE COURT: Bring your proof.
17 MR. PETROCELLI: I'd ask --
18 MR. LEONARD: Ask some questions about the
19 photographs.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Leonard.
21 MR. GELBLUM: I'd ask the jury be admonished
22 and Mr. Leonard be admonished in front of the jury
23 about these improper remarks.
24 THE COURT: I think I'd admonish both of you to
25 stop your outbursts.
26 (The following proceedings were
27 held at the bench with the
28 reporter:)
51
1
2 MR. BAKER: I'll stand in between them.
3 THE COURT: Good idea.
4 Where's the proof?
5 MR. GELBLUM: I spoke with the man who took the
6 deposition. I don't have the documents. I don't have
7 depositions. I have to subpoena him. I have a
8 subpoena I can serve --
9 THE COURT: Excuse me.
10 MR. GELBLUM: I don't have the depositions,
11 Your Honor. I spoke with the man who took the
12 depositions for the Assassination Records Review Board
13 and he told me that this is what happened.
14 MR. LEONARD: What happened?
15 MR. GELBLUM: The man was deposed twice. He
16 knows full well it's absolutely true, and he took -- a
17 man named Jeremy Gunn (phonetic) from the
18 Assassination Review Board took his deposition twice
19 in June of this year and a little later.
20 THE COURT: Why don't you have the depositions?
21
22 MR. GELBLUM: Because I just found out about it
23 last week, Your Honor. I just found this man.
24 THE COURT: I'm not going to permit you to
25 admit these inflammatory accusations without some
26 proof.
27 MR. LEONARD: He said --
28 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
52
1 MR. PETROCELLI: He admits he was in a
2 deposition.
3 THE COURT: Excuse me. You just got somebody
4 that I don't know anything about telling you --
5 MR. GELBLUM: I'll give you his phone number.
6 THE COURT: I don't want his phone number.
7 MR. GELBLUM: He is the man who took the
8 deposition.
9 THE COURT: I'm not letting you shoot from the
10 hip.
11 MR. GELBLUM: I'm not shooting from the hip.
12 THE COURT: Don't do it.
13 MR. GELBLUM: I have documents.
14 THE COURT: Don't do it.
15 MR. LEONARD: I move for mistrial.
16 MR. GELBLUM: Oh --
17 MR. LEONARD: Yes. He put before the jury --
18 he said you were deposed because you did steal, that's
19 outrageous. They cleared him.
20 MR. PETROCELLI: Shhh.
21 MR. LEONARD: I move for a mistrial.
22 THE COURT: You're request for a mistrial is
23 denied.
24 MR. GELBLUM: Can I ask him if he was deposed?
25 THE COURT: No. I don't like the way you asked
26 him based on what you know.
27 MR. LEONARD: Ask the jury be admonished there
28 is no evidence that he stole anything.
53
1 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, what better
2 evidence --
3 THE COURT: You don't have any evidence at this
4 point.
5 MR. GELBLUM: The person who took the
6 deposition --
7 THE COURT: Where is he?
8 MR. GELBLUM: He's in Washington, D.C.
9 THE COURT: Exactly.
10 MR. GELBLUM: If you want --
11 THE COURT: Exactly.
12 MR. GELBLUM: I'll bring him in. We'll
13 subpoena the records and bring him in.
14 THE COURT: You bring him in.
15 But you're not going to do it now.
16 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, he's on the stand, I
17 have to ask him the question.
18 It's absolutely true, Your Honor. It is
19 absolutely true.
20 MR. LEONARD: What's true?
21 THE COURT: You're not going to ask it in that
22 fashion.
23 MR. GELBLUM: Let me ask it --
24 THE COURT: You've already done your damage.
25 MR. GELBLUM: Let me ask him whether he's been
26 deposed.
27 THE COURT: You've already done the damage.
28 And you can ask him whether he's been
54
1 deposed, period.
2 MR. GELBLUM: On the subject --
3 MR. PETROCELLI: Can we ask him about the
4 subject matter?
5 THE COURT: No.
6 MR. LEONARD: He already did that and
7 misrepresented to the jury --
8 MR. GELBLUM: I did not.
9 MR. LEONARD: You did.
10 MR. GELBLUM: I did not. Knock it off.
11 THE COURT: I'm not going to permit this.
12 MR. LEONARD: Ask the --
13 MR. GELBLUM: I ask him if he's been deposed --
14 THE COURT: You already asked him --
15 MR. GELBLUM: I thought you could ask him that,
16 but he didn't answer that question. If you go back in
17 the record, he doesn't answer.
18 THE COURT: You can ask him if he's been
19 deposed, period.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Okay, fine.
21 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I ask that the jury
22 be -- he made a representation in his question --
23 THE COURT: I'm not going to -- I have already
24 admonished them.
25 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.
26 MR. LEONARD: I ask that they be admonished.
27 THE COURT: You've already asked me. I said I
28 would. Why do you have to ask me again?
55
1
2 (The following proceedings were
3 heal in open court in the presence
4 of the jury.)
5
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 Ladies and gentlemen, the Court is
8 instructing you to disregard Mr. Gelblum's question to
9 the effect that the question accuses this witness of
10 having stole anything.
11 This is a case in which the law requires
12 that evidence be produced to show a fact.
13 The plaintiff or any counsel, even
14 defense counsel, cannot establish evidence by
15 innuendo.
16 That was a question that had innuendo in
17 it. There is no evidence whatsoever before you to
18 show that this witness stole anything at any time.
19 Everybody understand that?
20 JURORS: Yes.
21 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.
22 THE COURT: Now, let's cut out that type of
23 question.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, isn't it
25 true you've been deposed by the Assassination Report
26 Review Board twice this year?
27 A. That is correct.
28 Q. On the next page of your resume you say
56
1 Mr. Groden has been called to present photographic
2 evidence as an expert consultant in the Manning case,
3 international bombing incidents, and several other
4 court cases.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In fact, you never testified in court as
8 an expert on photographic evidence before this case,
9 correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. But you have appeared on -- what does it
12 say, 2,000 television and radio shows?
13 A. Approximately, yes.
14 Q. That includes nine times on "Inside
15 Edition"?
16 You want to look at page three of your
17 profile?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "Oprah Winfrey" and "Geraldo," right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, turn to the last page of the
22 profile, please. It talks about your videotape you
23 produced?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I think you told us before that the
26 "Case for Conspiracy" you re-edited and are selling a
27 second version; is that right?
28 A. That's correct.
57
1 Q. And that's because somebody asked you to
2 take some footage out?
3 MR. LEONARD: Objection, hearsay, irrelevant.
4 Ask to approach.
5
6 (The Court reviewed real-time
7 computer screen.)
8
9 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
10 Your request to approach is denied.
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay.
12 Are you using footage in that videotape
13 from somebody named Haskel (phonetic)?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And somebody else named Tower (phonetic)?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have their authorization to use
18 that?
19 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 A. I had permission from the agent, for
22 Steve Haskel prior to it's use. And I had not had
23 permission from Tina Tower. I tried to get it but
24 could not locate her, she had changed her name and
25 moved to a different town.
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) So you used the footage
27 anyway?
28 A. Yes. I had done a lot of work for her
58
1 that I had not been paid for and I didn't think that
2 she would mind.
3 Q. And is she suing you now because of that?
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 A. Yes, she has filed suit.
7 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, turning to the
8 photograph in this case --
9 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a 10-minute
10 recess, ladies and gentlemen.
11
12 (Recess.)
13
14 (Jurors resume their respective
15 seats.)
16
17 THE COURT: You may examine.
18 MR. GELBLUM: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) On Wednesday, sir,
20 you and Mr. Leonard had an exchange about a couple
21 times you've had deals with "National Enquirer."
22 You recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The one we talked about this morning
25 already, 14 years ago with the voodoo ritual?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. The second is with the photo at issue in
28 this case?
59
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And you were contacted by the "National
3 Enquirer" and asked to look at this photograph; is
4 that right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you agreed to do it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then they didn't call you back?
9 A. No. They called me back once after that
10 to try to set up an appointment, and they never called
11 me back after that.
12 Q. They didn't hire you to do it, right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now, were you trying to suggest, sir,
15 with that testimony that you -- the "Enquirer" didn't
16 ask you to render an opinion about this photograph
17 because you would have said that it was not authentic?
18 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 A. What I told the gentleman who contacted
21 me was that I would tell them whatever it was that I
22 found no matter which way it went.
23 I never heard from them again.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay.
25 You hadn't seen the photo at that point?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Are you telling -- trying to suggest,
28 sir, that the reason -- I'm sorry -- that one reason
60
1 that you think this photo may not be genuine is
2 because it was first published in the "Enquirer"?
3 A. I never said that.
4 Q. You're not trying to suggest that, are
5 you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Because you yourself have sold photos to
8 tabloids, correct?
9 A. That's a misrepresentation.
10 Q. Okay.
11 In December 1991, sir, didn't you sell
12 autopsy photographs of John F. Kennedy to the "Globe"
13 tabloid?
14 A. I did not.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Did you enter into a contract with the
17 "Globe" to sell autopsy photos of John F. Kennedy for
18 $50,000, sir?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. Do you recognize what I'm putting in
21 front of you now?
22 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object, not
23 relevant.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25
26 (Witness is handed magazine.)
27
28 A. Yes, I recognize it.
61
1 Q. What is it?
2 A. It a copy of the "Globe" dated
3 December 31, 1991.
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And the cover story is
5 about autopsy photos of John F. Kennedy, correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 MR. GELBLUM: I'd like to mark next in order, a
8 contract between you and the "Globe" for the sale of
9 those photographs.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Is that what that is,
11 sir?
12
13 (Witness reviews document.)
14
15 A. Would you repeat the question.
16 Q. Yes, sir.
17 MR. GELBLUM: What's the number on that?
18 THE CLERK: 2286.
19
20 (The instrument herein described
21 as a copy of appendix to hearings
22 was marked for identification as
23 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2286.)
24
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Exhibit 2286, that's a
26 contract between you and the "Globe" bearing your
27 signature on page 2, for $50,000 to sell autopsy
28 photographs of John F. Kennedy to the "Globe," isn't
62
1 it, sir?
2 A. No, it is not.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Is your name on it?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Okay.
7 And you're agreeing to sell some
8 photographs for $50,000?
9 A. No, I'm not.
10 Q. What are you agreeing to do, sir?
11 A. To give them exclusive rights to a story
12 about autopsy photographs being faked and to consult
13 with them for the writing of such a story.
14 Q. Okay.
15 And you gave them the photographs to use
16 in the story?
17 A. I allowed them to use the photographs in
18 the story.
19 Q. You were paid $50,000 for that, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you didn't sell them the photos, you
22 just sold them the right to publish the photos?
23 A. I sold them the rights to the story and
24 allowed them to use the photographs in the story to
25 prove a point.
26 Q. Those are some of the photos you obtained
27 from the House Select Committee when you were there?
28 A. That's correct.
63
1 Q. Those are autopsy photos of John F.
2 Kennedy, right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. So you certainly don't have any problem
5 with Harry Scull selling the photograph of Mr. Simpson
6 to the "Enquirer," do you?
7 MR. LEONARD: Objection argumentative.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, you read
10 Mr. Scull's deposition, didn't you?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And you saw he testified that he had the
13 original negative of the photograph of Mr. Simpson
14 wearing the Bruno Magli shoes at the Buffalo Bills
15 game, right?
16 A. That's what he testified to, yes.
17 Q. Are you're saying he's lying, right.
18 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague, argumentative.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 Q. You're saying he's lying when he says he
21 has the original negative because you think it's a
22 copy negative, right?
23 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
24 THE COURT: Why don't you ask a question
25 instead of a -- why don't you ask a question as a
26 question instead of an accusation.
27 MR. GELBLUM: I'm entitled to ask leading
28 questions.
64
1 THE COURT: Now, you may ask a question so it
2 sounds like a question.
3 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, isn't it
4 true that you're contending that Mr. Scull was lying
5 at his deposition when he said he had the original
6 negative?
7 MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 MR. LEONARD: Vague. Had the negative when?
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 A. I don't know whether he has the original
12 negative or not. What I testified to in my deposition
13 is what was shown to me, and purports to be the
14 original negative, is not.
15 Q. Well, and that's what was shown to you by
16 Mr. Scull's attorney, right, Michael O'Connor?
17 A. In Buffalo?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As the purported original negative,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So if it's another negative and Mr. Scull
24 says he still has the original negative, then your
25 position is he's lying about that, right?
26 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative, asked
27 and answered.
28 THE COURT: That's argumentative. Sustained.
65
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You also read the
2 deposition of Gerry Richards (phonetic), didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object, at this
5 point. Ask to approach.
6 THE COURT: Are we going to spend our time up
7 here?
8 MR. LEONARD: No, Your Honor, but --
9 THE COURT: Okay, approach.
10 MR. LEONARD: Thank you. Very briefly.
11
12 (The following proceedings were
13 held at the bench with the
14 reporter.)
15
16 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, Gerald Richards is
17 the ex -- photographic expert that the plaintiffs
18 retained and did not call in their case.
19 MR. GELBLUM: So what?
20 MR. LEONARD: I'm objecting to any publishing
21 of his opinion through this expert. This expert did
22 not rely on his opinion in any way. I think that's
23 improper hearsay.
24 MR. BAKER: This is their second attempt to get
25 this in.
26 MR. LEONARD: They tried to do this through
27 Bodziak.
28 THE COURT: Was his deposition taken?
66
1 MR. LEONARD: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Did their witness take this -- read
3 this deposition?
4 MR. LEONARD: Yes. But he's not relying on his
5 opinion. I think it's improper.
6 THE COURT: Okay. I'll sustain the objection.
7 Lay foundation that he relied on it. If
8 not, then you can't use it.
9 MR. GELBLUM: He reviewed it.
10 THE COURT: I don't care whether he reviewed it
11 or not. If he didn't rely on it, you can't use it.
12 You got it?
13 MR. GELBLUM: He also opined about
14 Mr. Richards' credentials. Can I ask him about his
15 credentials?
16 THE COURT: If you don't lay foundation that he
17 relied on it, you can't use it. Period. Okay.
18 Let's get going. Get to the subject
19 matter.
20
21 (The following proceedings were
22 held in open court in the presence
23 of the jury.)
24
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You read Mr. Richard's
26 deposition?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you rely on that in any way in forming
67
1 your opinion in this case?
2 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague what portions.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A. I'm not sure that I did. I noted what he
5 said.
6 Q. Did you rely on any portion of it in
7 forming your opinions in this case?
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 A. I don't specifically remember whether I
11 did or I didn't.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Well, you recall that
13 he said that?
14 MR. LEONARD: Objection, calls for hearsay.
15 THE COURT: The witness says he may have, he
16 may not have.
17 You may inquire.
18 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you recall
19 Mr. Richards opined that he made no -- found no
20 indication of forgery whatsoever in this photograph?
21 A. I read his -- that he found no
22 indication.
23 Q. Do you recall that he opined that he did
24 not find any indication of forgery of this photograph?
25 A. I do not specifically recall that he said
26 that.
27 Q. Okay.
28 He didn't say it was a fake, did he?
68
1 A. I don't believe he did, no.
2 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike. No
3 evidence he relied on that.
4 MR. PETROCELLI: Said he may have.
5 THE COURT: He said he may have, may not have.
6 It's vague.
7 MR. LEONARD: Now he's refreshed his
8 recollection to a specific portion. I ask that it be
9 stricken.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 MR. LEONARD: Without a foundation being laid.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, you recall
14 from reading the deposition of Mr. Richards an expert
15 witness being retained by the plaintiffs in the case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You found, as you said, his deposition,
18 that he had incredible credentials?
19 MR. LEONARD: Objection.
20 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
21 MR. LEONARD: Move to strike.
22 THE COURT: Stricken.
23 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
24 THE COURT: You already tested me.
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Are you also -- in
26 preparation for this -- in connection with this
27 photograph, you read the article in the "Enquirer"
28 where this photograph is printed, didn't you?
69
1 A. No, I have not.
2 Q. Did you look at it?
3 A. I glanced at it for a moment in a
4 supermarket, while standing in the checkout line.
5 Q. And you recall that in the article --
6 MR. LEONARD: Objection, calls for -- this is
7 going to call for hearsay.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. LEONARD: I'm trying to -- okay.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Did you rely on
11 anything in the article in forming your opinion that
12 you've given in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You also recall Mr. Scull's deposition
15 that he said he -- he testified at his deposition that
16 about a week after he took the picture, he sent a
17 print of this very photograph that we're talking about
18 to Pro Football Weekly?
19 A. I don't remember the specific timing. I
20 remember that he said he sent a copy of it. But I
21 don't recall that --
22 Q. Do you recall he said he sent it shortly
23 after he took it?
24 A. He said that he took it --
25 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant.
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 A. I remember that he said he sent it, but I
28 don't -- I don't recall exactly when he said he did
70
1 it.
2 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Just want to show you
3 Mr. Scull's deposition --
4 MR. LEONARD: I have an objection to that.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE COURT: Witness has indicated he relied on
7 portions of Scull's deposition.
8 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I withdraw the
9 objection.
10 THE COURT: As there is no opinion?
11 MR. LEONARD: I assumed he was going to publish
12 it. I withdraw the objection.
13 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) On page 84 of
14 Mr. Scull's deposition, the question from Mr. Baker:
15 Why is it that you sent an image of Mr. Simpson to Pro
16 Football Weekly?
17 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, he's publishing to
18 the jury.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Would you read that to yourself.
21 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike what
22 he just said.
23 MR. GELBLUM: The witness said he didn't
24 recall.
25 THE COURT: Well, let him read it.
26 MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, for the record,
27 this entire deposition was played to the jury in our
28 case in chief, this entire deposition, on videotape.
71
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Does that refresh your
2 recollection, sir, that Mr. Scull testified that he
3 sent the picture to Pro Football Weekly about a week
4 after he took the picture?
5 A. That appears to be what he said.
6 Q. That was about nine months before the
7 murders here?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Well, if the murders were in June of '94,
10 the picture was taken September 1993, about nine
11 months, right.
12 MR. LEONARD: Objection.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A. Would be about nine months, yes.
15 Q. Obviously long before any issue arose in
16 this case -- or in the criminal case, rather, about
17 the shoes that were worn by the killer, right?
18 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Now, Steve, could you put the
21 contact sheet up. 1832.
22
23(Exhibit 1832 displayed.)
24
25 THE CLERK: 1832.
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, there's two
27 photographs of Mr. Simpson on this roll, right? And
28 then one on the other roll; is that right?
72
1 A. Technically no, technically it appears
2 that there are three in this one.
3 Q. There are three photographs of
4 Mr. Simpson?
5 A. Technically, the back of somebody, second
6 from the top, second from the left, that may be the
7 back of Mr. Simpson, I don't know.
8 Q. There's two that you can recognize
9 Mr. Simpson, right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And one on the other roll?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. I want to be clear before we get deeply
14 into that photograph.
15 Your opinion is that just the one
16 photograph of Mr. Simpson walking, where you can see
17 his shoes, that's the only one that you say is fake?
18 THE COURT: Just a minute.
19 Did you guys screw this thing up.
20
21 (Referring to focusing Elmo
22 screen.)
23
24 MR. P. BAKER: I didn't touch it.
25 MR. FOSTER: The --
26 MR. PETROCELLI: The witness was working with
27 it and can't get it back to its original shape, Your
28 Honor.
73
1 MR. LEONARD: He can correct it in a second.
2 You want to have him come down?
3 THE COURT: It was working perfectly before
4 yesterday.
5 MR. LEONARD: Because there was a manual
6 override. I can actually adjust the focus.
7 MR. PETROCELLI: Can you fix it the way it was?
8 MR. LEONARD: Can you come down and fix it?
9 THE WITNESS: Sure.
10 MR. LEONARD: With the Court's permission.
11
12 (Witness adjusts Elmo.)
13
14 THE COURT: That used to be a thousand percent
15 better than that.
16 THE WITNESS: If they had this top light it
17 would possibly be better. They have this bottom
18 light.
19
20(Witness adjusts Elmo.)
21
22 THE WITNESS: There you go.
23 MR. GELBLUM: You have the slides, Mr. Groden,
24 from yesterday -- from Wednesday?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
26 MR. GELBLUM: May I?
27
28 (Witness produces slides from
74
1 brief case and hands them to
2 Mr. Gelblum.)
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) The question is, so
5 everybody's clear about what you're saying, you're
6 opining only that the one photo of Mr. Simpson
7 walking, where you can see his shoes, that's the
8 one -- only one that's fake, right?
9 A. That's the only one that I've determined
10 is fake.
11 Q. Right.
12 Well, part of your determination is that
13 there's things there you don't see on any other of the
14 photographs, right?
15 A. That's part of it, yes.
16 Q. Now, one of the things you mentioned was
17 something about a blue line on the bottom of the
18 photograph, right?
19 A. That's correct -- well, no, that's not
20 correct. It's outside the bottom of the photograph.
21 Q. Right between the image and the sprocket
22 holes, right?
23 A. Well, would you clarify that?
24 MR. GELBLUM: Well, let's put the slide up.
25 Steve, would you put this up.
26 THE COURT REPORTER: Does that have a number?
27 MR. P. BAKER: It's number 4 of 2282, I
28 believe.
75
1 THE CLERK: Yeah.
2
3 (Number 4 of Exhibit No. 2282 displayed.)
4
5 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You're saying the fact
6 there's a blue line in the blackness there or the --
7 or a cyan line is, and it's only on this photograph on
8 all the images on the contact sheet is evidence that
9 it's fake, right?
10 A. Well, may I -- maybe it's not my position
11 to do so. I'd like to clarify. You asked me about
12 the bottom of the photograph. This is the side.
13 Q. As you told us yesterday, it was the
14 bottom of the strip of negatives?
15 A. Oh, that's true, yes.
16 Q. You know the film goes in horizontally?
17 A. Yes, of course I know.
18 Q. Can you point where the blue line is?
19
20(Witness indicates to Elmo TV
21screen.)
22
23 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You've got an
24 enlargement here. It might be a little easier to see.
25 This is an enlargement of that photograph.
26 MR. LEONARD: Can I see it before it's
27 published to the jury?
28
76
1 (Mr. Gelblum displays enlargement
2 to Mr. Leonard.)
3
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) It's this blue line
5 here that you're talking about?
6 A. Yes, it's the series of short blue lines
7 by the sprocket holes.
8 MR. GELBLUM: May I exhibit this to the jury,
9 Your Honor?
10 THE COURT: You may.
11 (Blow-up of number 4 of 2282
12 displayed by counsel.)
13
14 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And you're saying this
15 indicates -- this is one indication that this
16 photograph is a fake, because that's not on any of the
17 other pictures, right?
18 A. What I'm saying is that we're seeing an
19 anomaly there that I cannot detect on any of the other
20 negatives in the contact sheet.
21 THE COURT: Is that particular board you held
22 up, was that marked as something or other?
23 MR. FOSTER: Enlarged of 2071.
24 MR. GELBLUM: Enlarged version of 2071. Do you
25 want to call it a new number or 2071X?
26 THE COURT: You want to use it?
27 MR. GELBLUM: Next in order.
28 THE CLERK: 2287.
77
1
2 (The instrument herein referred to
3 as copy of a photograph with
4 markings was marked for
5 identification as Plaintiffs'
6 Exhibit No. 2071.)
7
8 (The instrument herein referred to
9 as copy of a photograph with
10 markings was marked for
11 identification as Plaintiffs'
12 Exhibit No. 2072.)
13
14 (The instrument herein referred to
15 as copy of a photograph with
16 markings was marked for
17 identification as Plaintiffs'
18 Exhibit No. 2076.)
19
20 (The instrument herein described
21 as a blow-up of Exhibit 2071 was
22 marked for identification as
23 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2287.)
24
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Let me show you an
26 enlarged version of 2076 (sic). It's another
27 photograph of Mr. Simpson taken by Mr. Scull that day.
28 You see the same blue lines, Mr. Groden?
78
1
2(Witness reviews blow-up.)
3
4 A. I see blue lines, but it did not appear
5 to be the same.
6 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) They're in the same
7 position, aren't they, sir?
8 A. I would think not.
9 Can I compare the two?
10 Q. Absolutely.
11 MR. GELBLUM: This would be next in order.
12 This is the enlargement of 20 -- what does the back
13 say? 2076.
14 THE CLERK: 2288.
15
16
17
18 (The instrument herein described
19 as a blow-up of Exhibit 2076 was
20 marked for identification as
21 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2288.)
22 A. They do not appear to be the same.
23 Q. They're in the same location, aren't
24 they, sir?
25 A. No, they're not. They're close but
26 they're not in the same location.
27 Q. They're between the sprocket holes and
28 the image, right?
79
1 A. That's correct.
2 MR. GELBLUM: Show these to the jury?
3 THE COURT: You may.
4
5 (Counsel displays Exhibit 2288 to
6 jury.)
7
8 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, just for the
9 record --
10 MR. GELBLUM: A juror has asked that we hold
11 them up together, if that's okay with you.
12 THE COURT: You'll be able to examine the
13 photographs when you go into the jury room, ladies and
14 gentlemen. Right now you're just looking at the
15 exhibits.
16 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Also want to show you
17 an enlargement of 2072.
18 MR. GELBLUM: Next in order.
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Another blow-up of
20 Mr. Simpson. This one is horizontal so relatively to
21 the others we're looking at this side, right, the
22 bottom of a negative, sir, this would be the bottom of
23 the negative --
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. -- over here?
26 See a blue line on that one, too, sir?
27
28(Witness reviews blow-up.)
80
1
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Also between the sprocket holes and the
4 image?
5 A. Yes, but not the same as either of the
6 other two.
7 THE CLERK: That's Exhibit 2289.
8
9 (The instrument herein described
10 as a blow-up of Exhibit 2072 was
11 marked for identification as
12 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2289.)
13
14 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Same color, same
15 position?
16 A. No, different position.
17 MR. LEONARD: Object.
18 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Different position?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Between the sprocket holes and image?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. GELBLUM: May I show this to the jury as
24 well?
25 THE COURT: You may.
26
27 (Counsel displays Exhibit 2289 to
28 jury.)
81
1
2 MR. GELBLUM: Steve, could you put up the --
3 the enlargement of the two negatives.
4 MR. FOSTER: 1929.
5
6(Exhibit 1929 displayed.)
7
8 MR. GELBLUM: Can you enlarge -- zoom in on the
9 top one.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) See the same blue line
11 here, Mr. Groden?
12 A. I see a blue line. I can't determine
13 that it's the same.
14 Q. It's between the image and a sprocket,
15 and it's the same color, right?
16 A. I can't tell. This appears white.
17 Q. Are you color-blind?
18 A. No.
19 Q. That appears white to you?
20 A. Um-hum.
21 Q. Like Mr. Simpson's shirt appeared pink to
22 you?
23 A. Mr. Simpson's shirt is pink.
24 Q. It is?
25 A. In this photograph it is.
26 Q. You sure you're not color-blind?
27 A. I'm positive.
28 Q. Okay.
82
1 How did you miss all these lines,
2 Mr. Groden?
3 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
4 THE COURT: Excuse me. I didn't hear the
5 question.
6 MR. GELBLUM: I'll withdraw it.
7 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) How did you simply not
8 see these lines when you were doing your examination?
9 Are you trying to deliberately mislead
10 the jury?
11 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 A. They don't appear on what I was furnished
14 with.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Oh?
16 A. They're not there.
17 Q. Okay.
18 You looked at the original negatives,
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Why didn't you show the jury these other
23 frames, Mr. Groden?
24 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, Mr. Groden, these
27 lines are caused by scratches and caused by the
28 camera, right, Mr. Groden?
83
1 A. I have no way of knowing that.
2 Q. Right.
3 MR. GELBLUM: Can you put up, please, the
4 photograph of the back of the camera.
5 Q. So that for all unique these lines are
6 caused by the scratch caused by the camera than on the
7 film?
8 A. It can be a negative transport.
9 Q. It can be a scratch?
10 A. It could be.
11 Q. Okay.
12 You can recognize this, Mr. Groden?
13 A. Do I recognize it?
14 Q. Yeah. You know what kind of camera it
15 is?
16 A. There's no indication as to what kind it
17 is.
18 Q. You're an expert. You don't recognize
19 it?
20 A. It's a 35 millimeter SLR camera, appears
21 to be an SLR camera.
22 Q. That's all you can say about it?
23 A. From what I'm seeing here.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Take as close a look as you want.
26 A. It's a 35 millimeter SLR camera with the
27 back open and has a motor drive attached at the
28 bottom.
84
1 Q. You recognize this as a Canon F1, the
2 same kind of camera used by Mr. Scull to take these
3 pictures?
4 A. It may very well be.
5 Q. But you don't know?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And the way that the film works -- you
8 know what these are called, Mr. Groden?
9 A. Film guides.
10 Q. You ever heard them called rails?
11 A. Could be called rails.
12 Q. Okay.
13 When the film comes across here, it's
14 loaded on the -- what's on the left side of the
15 screen, and it's pulled across into -- it's called the
16 take up reel --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- on the right side of the screen, and
19 it rides on these rails in between -- I'm sorry, it
20 rides on the two center rails in between the outer
21 rails which are guides, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And on a Canon F1, sir, you have these
25 rollers here, right?
26 A. It's a sprocket drive.
27 Q. Okay.
28 You don't have those on all cameras, do
85
1 you?
2 A. You have it on most.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And when the film comes over this edge of
5 the inside rails, there can be spurs or deformities on
6 the edge of the metal that cause scratches, right?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. That's what caused the scratches here,
9 nothing about fakery, right?
10 MR. LEONARD: Objection.
11 A. That's an absurd thing to say. I have no
12 idea that they came from the camera. They could
13 have -- they could have come from when they were
14 printed.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Exactly. You have no
16 idea.
17 A. There's no way to determine that if you
18 don't have the original camera.
19 Q. Well, you're willing to sit here and tell
20 the jury what it is.
21 On Wednesday you sat here and told the
22 jury there was -- that was evidence of fakery or
23 something being overlaid on top of the negative,
24 didn't you?
25 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, objection,
26 argumentative.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You have no way of
86
1 knowing what it is. But I'll tell the jury -- you
2 told the jury what it was, you told the jury it was
3 evidence of something being laid over the negative,
4 didn't you?
5 A. I said it could be.
6 Q. But you have no idea.
7 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, argumentative, asked
8 and answered.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 A. You asked me now if I could determine
11 that these scratches came specifically from the camera
12 and I said, no, I could not.
13 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) By the way, can you
14 tell the jury what the structure of color film is?
15 A. The structure of color film?
16 Q. The structure of color film?
17 A. Color film basically is an acetate base
18 with an emulsion made up of grain with three separate
19 layers; yellow, cyan, and magenta.
20 Q. You forgot the yellow block in between
21 the first and third layers, didn't you?
22 A. There are other aspects to it as well.
23 There are binders, things of that nature, certainly.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Now, another point that you talked to the
26 jury about on Wednesday with Mr. Leonard, was that the
27 photographs weren't properly -- that this frame was
28 not properly aligned with the others, right?
87
1 A. That's correct.
2 MR. GELBLUM: Can you put up the slide?
3 THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Did he have a
4 number for this?
5 THE CLERK: 2290.
6 THE COURT: Back of a camera.
7
8 (The instrument herein described
9 as a photograph back of a camera
10 was marked for identification as
11 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2290.)
12
13 MR. GELBLUM: Put up the frame which was 2 of
14 2282.
15
16 (Frame No. 2 of Exhibit 2282
17 displayed.)
18
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Remember that testimony
20 on Wednesday, you said that wasn't aligned?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And you also said that's the only frame
23 in the whole roll that's not aligned, right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And that's false?
26 A. What do you mean it's false?
27 Q. I mean it's false, isn't it?
28 A. What are you talking about?
88
1 Q. There are other frames that are
2 misaligned, aren't there?
3 A. No, there are not.
4 MR. GELBLUM: Steve.
5 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) I show you frames -- I
6 show you and the jury the alignment of No.'s 12 and
7 13, same contact sheet, the picture of Mr. Simpson.
8
9 (No. 12 and No. 13 displayed.)
10
11 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object. That's a
12 different contact sheet.
13 A. It is a different contact sheet.
14 MR. GELBLUM: You want to use their contact
15 sheet.
16 MR. P. BAKER: We need --
17 MR. GELBLUM: If you give it to us we'll use
18 it.
19 MR. P. BAKER: Mr. Groden.
20
21 (Mr. Groden removes contact sheet
22 from brief case.)
23
24 MR. GELBLUM: If these are the Court exhibits,
25 if they are, I'd like to have them all.
26 THE COURT: Why does he have the exhibits?
27 MR. P. BAKER: We -- I just --
28 MR. PETROCELLI: Are those the original copies?
89
1 MR. P. BAKER: We laser copied --
2 THE COURT: Where are the ones we used?
3 MR. P. BAKER: We used prints in Court.
4 THE CLERK: I need a number. I don't know --
5 MR. P. BAKER: I believe --
6 MR. PETROCELLI: Where are the slides he used
7 on Wednesday?
8 MR. LEONARD: The slides --
9 MR. PETROCELLI: What does he have in his brief
10 case?
11 MR. GELBLUM: Is this the rest of the exhibits?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 MR. GELBLUM: May I?
14 THE COURT: What exhibit are we using?
15 MR. P. BAKER: We're using 1924.
16
17 (The clerk reviewed exhibit book.)
18
19 THE CLERK: That's a new exhibit.
20
21 (The instrument herein referred to
22 as contact sheet was marked for
23 identification as Plaintiffs'
24 Exhibit No.1924.)
25
26 MR. LEONARD: Is Mr. Foster using a post-it to
27 do this?
28 I object.
90
1 THE COURT: What are you objecting to?
2 MR. LEONARD: His using a post-it as a straight
3 edge.
4 THE COURT: So he's using a post-it.
5 What's the problem? Is it a wrong
6 exhibit? If it's a wrong exhibit, tell me it's a
7 wrong exhibit.
8 MR. LEONARD: No. I'm objecting to this
9 demonstration with a post-it.
10 MR. PETROCELLI: Served me well, Your Honor.
11 MR. LEONARD: What?
12 MR. PETROCELLI: These post-its.
13
14 (Pause for counsel to review
15 exhibits.)
16
17 MR. GELBLUM: Can you put up on the Elmo,
18 please, the contact sheet showing frames 12 and 13.
19
20 (Contact sheet displayed.)
21
22 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, you didn't use a
23 square when you showed us, you just lined something up
24 on the side?
25 THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Is there a
26 number for this?
27 MR. GELBLUM: What number is this?
28 MR. P. BAKER: 1929.
91
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, you see,
2 Mr. Groden, how this is lined up along the top of this
3 frame?
4 A. That's crooked. It's diagonal. There's
5 nothing here in this space over here. This is not
6 accurate.
7 MR. GELBLUM: Exactly. Move it up. I'm sorry.
8 I see what you're saying.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. LEONARD: I'm going to object. This is not
11 a valid --
12 MR. GELBLUM: We didn't have the right contact
13 sheet because Mr. Groden had it in his brief case.
14 MR. LEONARD: That was the original contact
15 sheet.
16 THE COURT: Will you stop that, Mr. Leonard?
17 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, but I object --
18 THE COURT: Mr. Leonard, will you stop that?
19 MR. LEONARD: Yes.
20 THE CLERK: For the record, that's not exhibit
21 1929. I don't know what number that is.
22 MR. GELBLUM: We'll come back to it and deal
23 with it.
24 MR. GELBLUM: We'll come back to that when we
25 handle the contact sheet properly.
26 MR. FOSTER: 1932 --
27
28(Indicating to the clerk.)
92
1
2 THE COURT: Let's take a 10-minute recess.
3 Why don't you get your act together.
4 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, Mr. Groden took the
5 Court exhibits with him.
6 MR. FOSTER: 1832.
7 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, that was not the
8 exhibit. Your Honor --
9 THE BAILIFF: We're in recess.
10
11 (Recess.)
12
13
14 (A bench conference was held which
15 was not reported.)
16
17 (Jurors resume their respective
18 seats.)
19
20 (The following proceedings were
21 held in open court in the presence
22 of the jury.)
23
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) We were talking about
25 the alignment of the pictures, remember that,
26 Mr. Groden?
27 A. Yes.
28 MR. GELBLUM: Steve, could you put up Exhibit
93
1 1832, please.
2
3 (Exhibit 1832 displayed.)
4
5 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, when you measured
6 on your slide, you didn't square it off at the top,
7 you just put a straight edge along the side, correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Wouldn't you agree squaring it off is a
10 more accurate way of measuring it?
11 A. No, not necessarily.
12 Q. It's crooked if you don't square it off?
13 A. It depends what you're comparing it to.
14 Q. Yeah, okay.
15 Do you agree -- focus up here, please,
16 the top. This is 12 and 13. That's square across the
17 top.
18
19 (Indicating to individual slide on
20 the exhibit.)
21
22 A. No, it's not.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. GELBLUM: I guess --
25 A. There's a greater space on this side than
26 there is here.
27 MR. GELBLUM: Move it up, Steve.
28
94
1 (Elmo adjusted.)
2
3 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Is it straight along
4 the side?
5 A. I can't tell.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. It's because it's part of the picture.
8 MR. GELBLUM: Move it up, Steve.
9 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) This is the next frame
10 down, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 You see a gap in the space here, a gap,
14 much more showing on that than the one above it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Okay.
17 Just like the picture of Mr. Simpson
18 where you showed the gap between the straight edge and
19 the side, right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You viewed from the outside, this is the
22 inside?
23 A. No. This appears thinner on top and
24 wider on the bottom, it's diagonal, it's not a
25 straight edge.
26 Q. The post-it is not straight?
27 A. That's what I'm saying. That's what I
28 said before.
95
1 Q. We'll let the jury decide.
2 MR. GELBLUM: Can you show me 33 and 34,
3 please.
4
5 (Slide No. 33 displayed.)
6
7 A. This is 33.
8
9 (Indicating to slide 33.)
10
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Is it straight along
12 the bottom, covers up the side? Agree with me on
13 that?
14 A. Again, I can't tell because you have part
15 of the picture covered up.
16 Q. They're all covered up.
17 MR. GELBLUM: Go ahead up to 34.
18
19 (Slide 34 displayed.)
20
21 Q. Do you see that there's a space showing
22 that is not showing in 33?
23 A. Again, it's diagonal, it's not flush to
24 the edge.
25 Q. It's because it's misaligned, right?
26 A. No. No.
27 Q. Do --
28 A. No, wait, you asked me a question.
96
1 Q. Do you know how film --
2 MR. LEONARD: I object and ask that he be
3 allowed to answer the question.
4 THE COURT: Ask another question.
5 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you have any idea
6 how film moves through a camera?
7 A. Of course.
8 Q. This is a camera?
9 A. It's a camera. Of course.
10 MR. GELBLUM: Let the record reflect I'm
11 holding up a 35 millimeter single lens reflex camera?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Pentax?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, load the film in the camera like
16 this, right, pull it over, across the -- what do you
17 call that?
18 THE COURT: I'm sure the jury has a nice view
19 of your back.
20 MR. GELBLUM: I'm trying to coordinate and the
21 witness --
22 THE COURT: Why don't you stand over here.
23 MR. GELBLUM: All right.
24 Good idea. Thank you.
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Pull the lens across --
26 what do you call this opening?
27 A. It's frame aperture.
28 Q. And then you stick it in the take-up
97
1 reel, right?
2 A. Um-hum.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And to get it flat you have to advance
5 the film; is that right?
6 A. You have to put the film in the right
7 place.
8 Q. Right. Okay.
9 Now, as we looked at it before, it rides
10 on top of two rails and inside the metal guides; is
11 that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And there's a little bit of play up and
14 down, isn't there?
15 A. May I examine it?
16 MR. BAKER: With the camera open or closed?
17 MR. GELBLUM: With the camera open. You can't
18 see it if it's closed.
19 MR. LEONARD: The question is is there play?
20 MR. GELBLUM: Little bit of play up and down
21 with the film, right?
22 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) That's how cameras
23 work, right?
24 A. On this particular camera there appears
25 to be an extreme --
26 Q. On all cameras there's some play so that
27 the film can move through, right?
28 A. I can't say on all cameras.
98
1 Q. And even with the camera closed, with the
2 pressure plate, there's still some play because the
3 film has to be able to advance, correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Okay.
6 May I pass this to the jury so they can
7 see the play in here, Your Honor.
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That is not the
9 camera that was used for this shot. I think it's an
10 improper demonstration. I don't think -- I think it's
11 not relevant.
12 THE COURT: It's not the same camera.
13 Sustained.
14 MR. GELBLUM: It's a typical camera.
15 THE COURT: Excuse me, are you an expert on
16 cameras? You haven't been sworn.
17 MR. PETROCELLI: I object to the Court's
18 comment.
19 THE COURT: Well, it's overruled.
20 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, it is
21 typical in 35 millimeter single lens reflex cameras
22 for there to be some play up and down so the film can
23 move through the camera, correct.
24 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.
26 A. I would say that it would vary from
27 camera to camera it that there is no specific
28 instance, for instance, an Icon camera perhaps would
99
1 have less.
2 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) But some play because
3 it has to move through, right?
4 A. They can't bind it, they can't seize it,
5 yeah.
6 Q. Okay.
7 It has to have some play?
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, asked and answered.
9 MR. GELBLUM: I think that what the witness
10 said -- can I pass the camera around?
11 THE COURT: No.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And because the film
13 moves up and down a little bit because there's some
14 play, it is absolutely typical on every contact sheet
15 in the world for adjoining frames to not be perfectly
16 in line with each other, true or false?
17 A. False.
18 Q. Now, another of your points, sir, you
19 said that the questioned frame was too long, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that simply is false, isn't it?
22 A. Of course, it's not false.
23 Q. Of course, it is false.
24 MR. LEONARD: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You --
27 THE COURT: Jury to disregard that last
28 comment.
100
1 MR. GELBLUM: I apologize.
2 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You said you used a
3 compass like this to measure it?
4 A. Not like that.
5 Q. This type of compass?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. GELBLUM: Steve, would you put the contact
8 sheet up, please.
9
10(Mr. Foster complies.)
11
12 MR. GELBLUM: Would you put the compass point
13 around the edge of frame --
14 How do you want to do it, frame 2 versus
15 frame 1 or frame 1 versus frame 2, Mr. Groden?
16 THE WITNESS: Doesn't matter.
17 MR. GELBLUM: Do it on frame 2.
18 THE COURT REPORTER: And this exhibit, please?
19 MR. FOSTER: 1832.
20
21(Exhibit 1832 displayed.)
22
23 MR. GELBLUM: Compass point right at the edges,
24 top and bottom.
25 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, can we ask the
26 witness to be able to do it.
27 MR. GELBLUM: No, I don't want the witness to
28 do it.
101
1 MR. LEONARD: Not Mr. Foster.
2 THE COURT: It is sustained.
3 Let the witness do it.
4 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, the jury can see --
5 it's for -- this is not expert -- this is holding a
6 compass next to a photograph. The jury can see
7 whether they're aligned or not.
8 MR. LEONARD: Object, and ask the witness be
9 permitted --
10 THE COURT: Witness, you do it.
11 THE WITNESS: He's damaging the original. I'm
12 sorry.
13
14 (Indicating to Mr. Foster placing compass
15 on contact sheet.)
16
17 MR. PETROCELLI: Let him do it.
18 MR. LEONARD: We got a couple of holes.
19 THE COURT: Do it on the copy.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, we have to do it on
21 the original.
22 THE COURT: I don't want the original damaged.
23 MR. GELBLUM: This witness testified that he
24 did this with this frame. It's a very important
25 point. We have to demonstrate it's exactly the same
26 size. We have to do it on the original. We have
27 other copies of 1832, we have other copies of that
28 one.
102
1
2(Witness approaches Elmo.)
3
4 MR. GELBLUM: Not with an enlarged one that you
5 made, sir, with the actual size.
6 THE COURT: Use the -- use a laser copy from
7 that original.
8 MR. GELBLUM: No, Your Honor, use the compass
9 that has the fixed compass, not the one that can be
10 adjusted with your fingers with pressure.
11 MR. BAKER: Adjusted what?
12
13(Compass is placed on copy.)
14
15 MR. GELBLUM: The record should reflect that
16 the compass points are around the top and bottom of
17 frame 2.
18 THE COURT: Well, it appears that the bottom
19 part of the compass is within the frame.
20 MR. GELBLUM: It does indeed. That's why I
21 wanted my person to do it.
22 THE WITNESS: Mine has an easier to see point
23 than this. This is -- has a somewhat strange 2-stage
24 point.
25 Your Honor, if I may, the one that I've
26 been using uses a straight fixed point. These are
27 adjustable and have a 2-stage taper to it, this would
28 not be as accurate.
103
1 THE COURT: A point is a point.
2 MR. GELBLUM: Another suggestion.
3 THE COURT: No, use the fixed compass so that
4 it cannot be moved.
5 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, I might suggest it
6 might take less time to let the jurors have the
7 compass and contact sheet and pass it around, they can
8 see for themselves.
9 MR. LEONARD: I would object to that.
10 THE COURT: I would sustain the objection.
11 MR. GELBLUM: Just a suggestion.
12 You're still inside. Top one's inside.
13 THE WITNESS: You said the bottom.
14 MR. GELBLUM: Now they're both inside, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: Now they're both outside. That's
16 outside.
17 MR. GELBLUM: Let the record reflect those are
18 at least pretty close to on the line.
19 THE WITNESS: The bottom is still outside.
20 MR. GELBLUM: I don't think so.
21
22 (Witness continues to place
23 compass on slide.)
24
25 THE WITNESS: All right.
26 THE COURT: Go ahead.
27 MR. GELBLUM: Go ahead, put it on frame 1.
28 Don't push the edge out there, sir.
104
1 THE WITNESS: On the other one we would make
2 adjustments. This one I'm not.
3 MR. GELBLUM: No adjustments.
4 THE WITNESS: That's what I said. Can't lay it
5 flat.
6 THE COURT: Okay, counsel, this is ridiculous.
7 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
8 THE COURT: You put your own expert on and you
9 can give measurements. This --
10 MR. GELBLUM: There you go, Your Honor, it's
11 done.
12 THE WITNESS: It's on the inside.
13 MR. GELBLUM: That's why I wanted the jury to
14 pass it around, so they can see for themselves.
15 MR. LEONARD: Object, he's arguing at this
16 point.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 MR. GELBLUM: All right.
19 THE COURT: Go off of measurements -- off your
20 own expert to make measurements.
21 MR. GELBLUM: We will, Your Honor.
22
23 (Witness resumes seat at witness
24 stand.)
25
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, you said at
27 your deposition something you didn't say yesterday
28 about the measurements, which is you actually measured
105
1 the difference?
2 A. I measured it by examining it with a
3 compass.
4 Q. At your deposition you said you measured
5 it and it was a quarter of a millimeter difference at
6 8 times enlargement, remember that?
7 A. Approximately.
8 Q. Okay.
9 So actual size, that would mean a 32nd of
10 a millimeter, right, one-eighth times one-fourth,
11 one-thirty-second?
12 A. Where, on the contact sheet?
13 Q. Yes, one-eighth of a millimeter?
14 A. It's an arbitrary figure.
15 Q. Your measure is arbitrary?
16 A. As I've said time and again, the
17 measurement is so small that it would be virtually
18 impossible to do an accurate measurement. You can
19 only compare one to another.
20 Q. Exactly.
21 Because one-thirty-second of a millimeter
22 is about 10, 12 thousandths of an inch, and you can't
23 possibly measure that?
24 A. I can't with this.
25 Q. With any measuring tools when you
26 measured it, right?
27 A. That's correct. That's why I blew it up
28 400 percent and measured one to the other.
106
1 Q. Exactly.
2 When you made that enlargement, did you
3 make any adjustment to your enlarger?
4 A. No, I didn't make it, it was a xerox copy
5 directly, no changes, nothing, no alterations.
6 Q. With the enlargement?
7 A. Sorry?
8 Q. With the enlargement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's why you got a quarter millimeter
11 at 8 X?
12 A. No, it was much greater than a quarter of
13 a millimeter.
14 Q. Like to show you what was marked as
15 Exhibit 4 at your deposition, sir.
16 MR. GELBLUM: Mark that next in order.
17 THE CLERK: 2291.
18
19 (The instrument herein described
20 as copy of notes of Mr. Groden was
21 marked for identification as
22 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2291.)
23
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Point number 9: The
25 negative is too long, one-quarter millimeter at 800
26 percent?
27 A. That's an approximation. This was a
28 rough note to myself. That was not a report.
107
1 Q. That's what you provided to me at your
2 deposition, the record of your observations, right?
3 A. You asked me --
4 Q. Isn't that right?
5 A. You asked me --
6 Q. Isn't that right? Please answer the
7 question.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 You made a written report?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, another of your points was this,
13 what you call a second edge or something like that, a
14 false edge; is that right?
15 A. At the bottom of frame 1, below frame 1?
16 Q. Right, yes.
17 MR. GELBLUM: Remember which slide number that
18 was, Phil? I think you had it.
19 MR. P. BAKER: Slide 3, I think this is.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Slide 3.
21 MR. P. BAKER: Is that the correct slide?
22 THE WITNESS: It appears to be.
23 MR. P. BAKER: Slide 3 of 2282.
24
25(Slide 3 of Exhibit 2282
26displayed.)
27
28 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And just to refresh the
108
1 jury's recollection, you're talking about this space
2 down here where it gets lighter than the black, right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And it has some of those vertical lines
5 in it that appear to get closer together over here --
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. -- is that right?
8 And you said there is no natural
9 phenomenon in photography whatsoever that could
10 possibly account for that, right?
11 A. It didn't appear by itself.
12 Q. You said there's no -- I'm going to quote
13 you, "no natural situation in photography that would
14 give you that false edge by itself"; is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. GELBLUM: Can I have the camera, please?
18
19(Mr. Petrocelli hands camera to
20Mr. Gelblum.)
21
22 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) As we saw before with
23 the camera, you put the film in and you shoot off a
24 few frames and you advance it, right?
25 A. That's correct.
26 Q. When you first load the film?
27 A. That's correct.
28 Q. And you're aware, sir, that when people
109
1 use long lenses like the 500 millimeter lens, they
2 don't have a lens cap on them, you're familiar with
3 that, that's a practice of professional photographers?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. So you've got the film in, and you're
6 loading it up and you're clicking away a few clicks,
7 there's going to be some film (sic) that comes in
8 through the camera lens, right?
9 THE COURT: Some what?
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Light, I call it some
11 light that comes in through the lens?
12 A. I'm not sure that you're representing
13 that exactly -- what do you mean by "comes in"?
14 Q. Light enters through the lens.
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. And hits the film?
17 A. Not if it's a good camera it won't.
18 Q. Not if you're clicking like that, it
19 won't come in, it won't enter through the lens and hit
20 the film?
21 A. As you're advancing it?
22 Q. Yes, as you're advancing it.
23 A. Um-hum.
24 Q. Frame 1 isn't the first numbered frame on
25 a roll?
26 A. There should be a zero.
27 Q. And a zero zero and a zero zero zero?
28 A. No.
110
1 Q. Haven't seen that?
2 A. Not a zero zero zero.
3 Q. But there is a zero?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this picture would be just below
6 frame 1, right?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And that frame as you're clicking through
9 to advance the film could get exposed a little bit,
10 right, through the lens, 'cause there's no lens cap
11 on, 'cause there's a long lens?
12 A. It would be exposed a lot.
13 Q. Not if the camera is stopped down to a
14 small aperture, right, then it could be underexposed?
15 MR. LEONARD: I object to this. There's no --
16 there's a lack of foundation, assumes facts not in
17 evidence.
18 THE COURT: Overruled. He's asking him a
19 question.
20 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) If the camera is
21 stopped down to a small aperture, could be
22 underexposed, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 And so you could get an image on frame 0,
26 it could be very underexposed, correct?
27 A. Theoretically.
28 Q. Okay.
111
1 When you take the film -- when the
2 photographer takes the film out of the camera -- in
3 this case Mr. Scull developed it himself; you read
4 that, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And he takes it out -- and he takes it
7 out of the -- the little cartridge and he just cuts it
8 off, right, because -- he cuts off the first couple
9 ones because they're over -- 'cause they're exposed
10 from the back of the camera?
11 MR. LEONARD: Objection, that assumes facts not
12 in evidence.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 MR. LEONARD: Scull never testified to that.
15 Never sustained to that.
16 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You're familiar how you
17 process film?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. And you clip off the end?
20 A. You cut the tongue off at one end.
21 Q. Right at this end, right (indicating),
22 the front of it?
23 A. Much farther down.
24 Q. Right.
25 But you don't want to cut too far --
26 close to the image, the film, and on frame 1, because
27 you don't want to cut into the image?
28 A. Correct.
112
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. GELBLUM: Now, can you put up -- leave that
3 up and put up frame 12 from the contact sheet
4 THE COURT REPORTER: Again, this exhibit,
5 please?
6 MR. GELBLUM: Zoom in on frame 12.
7 MR. FOSTER: 1924.
8
9(Exhibit 1924 displayed.)
10
11 MR. FOSTER: They both won't fit.
12 MR. GELBLUM: That's all right. Just leave
13 this one up, then.
14 Can you focus?
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) See a series of
16 parallel lines that get closer together as they go
17 back, sir?
18 A. You mean on the field?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. GELBLUM: You want to put the other one
22 back up, please.
23 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) A lot like these
24 parallel lines getting closer together only turned the
25 other way, don't they?
26 A. No, of course not.
27 Q. Well, in fact, say that's what that is,
28 isn't it? That's a very underexposed image of the
113
1 field caught when Mr. Scull was loading his film in
2 the camera and clicking off the film to get to frame
3 1?
4 A. No way in the world.
5 Q. No way in the world?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are you sure of that?
8 A. Not that I can see photographically.
9 First of all, they're too sharp.
10 Q. You're just as sure as you were that
11 there were no blue lines on any of the pictures except
12 frame 11?
13 MR. LEONARD: Argue -- objection,
14 argumentative.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 THE WITNESS: Can you make that lighter?
17 (Indicating to Elmo).
18
19(Elmo screen adjusted.)
20
21 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay.
22 Let's go to -- let's talk about your
23 retouching mark.
24 MR. LEONARD: I object to that. It's not his
25 mark.
26 MR. GELBLUM: There is no mark.
27 Let's go to the mark we talked about.
28 MR. FOSTER: 1931.
114
1
2(Exhibit 1931 displayed.)
3
4 MR. GELBLUM: On the -- let's start with the
5 left, left pant, left leg. This one. Can you zoom in
6 on this area.
7
8(Elmo adjusted.)
9
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And you're saying the
11 mark is where, sir, right along here?
12 A. (Witness indicates.)
13 MR. LEONARD: Might be helpful to get a
14 back light.
15 MR. FOSTER: It is back lit.
16 MR. LEONARD: And adjust it like we had on
17 direct.
18 MR. GELBLUM: They saw it this morning.
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Just point the area
20 out?
21 A. Right along here.
22 Q. Right along the crease in his pants,
23 right?
24 You see a crease in his pants there?
25 A. I don't see a crease. Do you see a
26 crease?
27 Q. You don't see a crease in his pants
28 there?
115
1 A. I see a bend in the material. I don't
2 see a crease.
3 Q. A fold in the material?
4 A. Okay. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay.
6 What are you saying here-- by the way,
7 are you saying that how this was this done -- were
8 false pants put on, a false shirt on, false shoes?
9 What happened with this picture?
10 A. I didn't create the picture. I have no
11 idea what was done to it.
12 Q. You have --
13 A. There are many ways it could have been
14 done. I have no personal knowledge of how it was
15 done.
16 Q. You have an opinion about how it was
17 done, given all your expertise?
18 A. In this particular place, in this
19 particular place, the issue that we're talking about
20 now, looks like somebody took either a retouching
21 brush and attempted to hide something, either a crop
22 line or something of that nature, or if it was done
23 digitally, it could be a process known as cloning.
24 Q. Now I'm talking about the whole
25 photograph. You're saying this a photograph of
26 Mr. Simpson that somebody put new pants and shoes on,
27 or is it a photograph of somebody else entirely that
28 somebody put Mr. Simpson's head on? What are you
116
1 saying was done here?
2 A. What I'm saying is there are anomalies in
3 the photograph that are not typical, that you would
4 not find in an unretouched photograph or that you
5 would not expect to find in an unretouched photograph,
6 and there are indications of more than one process
7 possibly being used.
8 Q. In fact, sir, you're not sure whether
9 this is a fake, are you?
10 A. I'm sure, to my satisfaction I'm sure
11 it's a fake.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Do you remember at your deposition --
14 MR. GELBLUM: 14, Mr. Leonard.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You're sure it's a
16 fake?
17 A. I'm convinced to a great deal of
18 certainty that it's a fake.
19 Q. Let's look at your deposition
20 testimony -- but you're not sure?
21 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague, Your Honor.
22 MR. GELBLUM: Put it up.
23 MR. LEONARD: Asked and answered.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) (Reading:)
25 Your bottom line opinion here is
26 that you observed what you perceived are
27 some problems with the negative?
28 Yes.
117
1 That leads you to believe on
2 balance it's probably not genuine, it's
3 probably a fake, but you're not sure; is
4 that fair?
5 I'd say that's accurate, yeah.
6 Remember giving that testimony?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay. 1:30.
9 Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about
10 the case, don't form or express any opinions.
11
12(At 12 P.M. a recess was taken
13until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
118
1 SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1996
2 1:37 P.M.
3 DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE
4 APPEARANCES: (AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
5
6 (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)
7
8 (Jurors resume their respective seats.)
9
10 MR. PETROCELLI: To accommodate Mr. Blasier
11 we're going to suspend our examination of Mr. Groden
12 for now, but we're not finished.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you.
15 MR. BLASIER: Defense calls Dr. Frederic
16 Rieders.
[Rieders testimony omitted -- does not relate to
photographic evidence]
16
17 THE COURT: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we're
18 going to be adjourning until January the 6th.
19 I want to restate the admonition that I
20 gave to you earlier.
21 That you not allow yourself to be
22 influenced by anything that you may hear outside of
23 this courtroom, or see outside of this courtroom with
24 regard to this case.
25 You must only be relying upon the
26 evidence as you will learn it through the trial
27 process and the law that the Court will give to you at
28 the end of the case.
205
1 You must not conduct any research on your
2 own.
3 You must not permit others to address you
4 about anything connected with this case.
5 On occasion, the Court is aware that
6 there may be people around the courthouse that may
7 make an effort to display themselves or somehow convey
8 something to those persons who are involved in this
9 trial that may possibly include you. You're not to
10 permit yourself to be influenced by anything like that
11 that you may occasionally come across.
12 In this case, we are trying specific
13 aspects of what occurred underlying the circumstances
14 of this case.
15 We have heard at one stage or another
16 that there was another proceeding ongoing in another
17 county, Orange County, that has to do not with our
18 case specifically, but with regard to Mr. Simpson and
19 the children. And I am bringing this to your
20 attention because in the two weeks or so that you will
21 be away from the court, it is entirely possible that
22 you will be inadvertently exposed to some accidental
23 or inadvertent exposure to news casts or broadcasts or
24 whatever.
25 You are instructed that whatever happens
26 in any other case involving Mr. Simpson and/or the
27 children has nothing to do with this case. The issue
28 involved in that matter has nothing to do with our
206
1 case.
2 Our case is fact specific and is
3 dependent only upon the evidence that we receive in
4 our case, and you must not be influenced by whatever
5 anybody says, whatever anybody does with regard to any
6 other matter outside of this trial.
7 This is a very important point.
8 Everybody understand that?
9 (The jury panel nodded affirmatively.)
10 THE COURT: Don't allow yourself to be exposed
11 to any such information. If you see a headline in the
12 newspaper or you inadvertently see it on television,
13 switch it off.
14 Do not permit yourself to be influenced
15 by those things. Okay.
16 And over this long course of the holiday,
17 I hope that it refreshes you, but at the same time, I
18 am making every effort to make sure that you not allow
19 yourself to be subtly or inadvertently or otherwise
20 influenced by what friends or relatives or others may
21 say to you during your period of absence in connection
22 with your service on this case. Okay.
23 It's very important that you -- while
24 people may know you're on this case, I don't know if
25 they do or not, but you are instructed that you're not
26 even to tell them that you are on this case, confirm
27 it or anything. You have absolutely no comment with
28 regard to this case.
207
1 Everybody understand that?
2 (The jury panel nodded affirmatively.)
3 THE COURT: I appreciate your patience and hard
4 work and being here every day. We get late starts
5 often because we have matters that we have to address
6 outside of your presence. These are legal matters
7 oftentimes that should not ever be a matter of concern
8 for the jury. Okay. You are only concerned with what
9 you actually get through the trial process. Whatever
10 else occurs outside of your presence, that is not
11 before you in the case.
12 Everybody understand that?
13 (The jury panel answered affirmatively.)
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 I hope to see all 16 of you back
16 January 6.
17 Stay in good health. Enjoy the holidays.
18 And every day bear in mind the admonition
19 I have given you, okay.
20 Thank you very much, and you're excused
21 until January 6, 8:30.
22 JURORS: Thank you, Your Honor.
23
24 (Jurors exit courtroom.)
25
26 (The following proceedings were
27 held at the bench with the
28 reporter.)
208
1
2 THE COURT: Mr. Baker, with regards to what you
3 were concerned about, Julius -- Vicki, my regular
4 bailiff, informs me that the two deputies who escort
5 the two elevator jurors are the two bailiffs right
6 behind you. And they indicated to her that the
7 incident that you were concerned with did not happen.
8 MR. BAKER: Okay.
9 THE COURT: So I've also reinforced --
10 MR. BAKER: You have.
11 THE COURT: -- their attentiveness to the
12 potential of such a problem so --
13 MR. BAKER: That's --
14 THE COURT: I want to reassure you of that.
15 MR. BAKER: Thank you. I appreciate that.
16 MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, have a happy
17 holiday.
18 MR. BAKER: Have a good holiday.
19 MR. PETROCELLI: We'll see you on January 6.
20 You too, Gina.
21 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
22
23 (The following proceedings were
24 held in open court outside the
25 presence of the jury.)
26
27 THE COURT: One announcement I'd like to make.
28 Ladies and gentlemen in the media, you
209
1 are ordered not to bring in any audio or other
2 broadcast equipment into this courtroom. You're
3 not -- you're allowed to be here. You don't have the
4 right to broadcast out of this courtroom.
5 Everybody understand that? Okay. Thank
6 you.
7
8 (At 4:03 P.M. an adjournment was
9 taken until Monday,
10 January 6, 1997 at 8:30 A.M.)
11
|
Return to Kennedy Assassination Home Page