TESTIMONY OF MARINA OSWALD PORTER--Resumed

Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I do.
Chairman STOKES - Thank you.The committee will operate under the 5-minute rule. At this time the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Dodd
Mr. DODD - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mrs. Porter
Mrs. PORTER - Good morning.
Mr. DODD - Mrs. Porter, yesterday in response to a question from Congressman Preyer, you said that you could not state an opinion as to whether Lee Oswald assassinated President Kennedy.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - Now as I understand it, you testified that you believed that Lee Oswald attempted to assassinate General Walker. You testified that you prevented Lee Oswald from leaving the house by locking him in a bathroom because you believed that he was going to shoot Richard Nixon. You further testified that you did not believe that Lee Oswald would have worked with an accomplice. And in answering the question as to whether Lee Oswald could have worked with an accomplice, you stated that although you weren't a psychiatrist, you knew him very well, and could say what he might and might not do. Now, Mrs. Porter, I am going to ask you again, just as Congressman Preyer did yesterday, do you believe that Lee Oswald killed the President of the United States?
Mrs. PORTER - I honestly don't know how to answer this question. I can just repeat what I said yesterday, I am not in position to make statement to force somebody to believe my way or if you just want my personal,----
Mr. DODD - You are not going to be forcing anyone to believe--- Mrs. PORTER [continuing]. Or convince somebody. If you want just my personal opinion---
Mr. DODD - That is what you were asked yesterday.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes. Yes, I do.
Mr. DODD - You do believe that your husband---What is your full answer to that question?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes; I do believe that the man was capable of doing such a crime.
Mr. DODD - Do you believe he acted alone?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I do.
Mr. DODD - Would you tell this committee what you believe to be, what the reasons are, on what basis do you draw that conclusion?
Mrs. PORTER - Maybe just a plain intuition, I don't know. But I did not claim that I knew the man very well, but whatever portion of his life that I shared with him, I came to conclusion, not conclusion, but at least I do not believe that Lee will trust and confide in someone.
Mr. DODD - I am sorry, I didn't hear your last statement. You didn't---
Mrs. PORTER - I do not believe that he would confide in somebody. He wasn't that open of a person.
Mr. DODD - Is what you are telling the committee--
Mrs. PORTER - Only from what I know.
Mr. DODD - I understand that. Is what you are telling the committee, that as a result of having lived with this man for 4 years----
Mrs. PORTER - I don't believe it was that long.
Mr. DODD - Well, 3 years, whatever the period of time was there. That you knew him well, knew him better probably than any other human being---
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know. Mr. DODD [continuing]. And that as a result of your knowledge of him, is it on that basis on which you draw the conclusion?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD - Are you aware, or do you have any knowledge of the fact that Lee Oswald attempted suicide at any point in his life?
Mrs. PORTER - I did not know when we were married. I find out about that later.
Mr. DODD - How much later did you find out?
Mrs. PORTER - After the assassination.
Mr. DODD - After the assassination?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - You never noticed any scars on his wrists?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I did notice scar.
Mr. DODD - Did you ask him about it?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - And what was his response to you?
Mrs. PORTER - He didn't want to talk about it, said it was something in his childhood he would rather not talk about.
Mr. DODD - Did you suspect that he may have attempted suicide?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - I would like to draw your attention, if I could, Mrs. Porter, to the time, period of time, in which you and Lee Oswald lived in Russia, in Minsk, if I could.
Do you recall the conditions under which you were living in Minsk, the type of conditions? It has been stated that you and Lee Oswald actually were living under circumstances that were better than the average Russian or the average Russian citizen, particularly an average working class Russian 22 years old. Now aside from the reason that you gave yesterday, that he was a foreigner, were there any other reasons why it was that you and Lee Oswald would be given special consideration in your living accommodations in Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER - No, that is only the reason that I could think of or I know of, only just what I said yesterday.
Mr. DODD - There is no other reason whatsoever?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't see any other reason.
Mr. DODD - Is it a fact that you were living under conditions that were better than the average 22-year-old Russian working class citizen?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, if it was only me, I would not be, I would not have that. Lee had apartment before we were married.
Mr. DODD - I understand that. But my question to you is, was it not in fact a better living condition, much better living circumstances, than the average working class 22-year-old Russian, and, if so, are there any other considerations that you are aware of that would explain why he received that special treatment, other than the fact that he was a foreigner?
Mrs. PORTER - That is only thing that I know, just because he was a foreigner--we had the privileges.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. DODD - Mr. Chairman, could I ask unanimous consent to proceed for 2 or 3 additional minutes?
Chairman STOKES - Without objection the gentleman is recognized.
Mr. DODD - Mrs. Porter, at the time you married Lee Oswald, did anyone from the Soviet secret service, the KGB, question you as to why you were marrying Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PORTER - It wasn't the permission to marry Lee wasn't granted that quickly, and the man who finally signed the papers, he tried to talk me out of it. He asked for my reasons.
Mr. DODD - He tried to talk you out of it?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - To convince you not to marry Lee?
Mrs. PORTER - "Why do a young girl like you marry a foreigner? Can't you find a Russian boy," and things like that. "You know him so little." It was more or less kind of fatherly advice.
Mr. DODD - Were you asked at that time, because you were marrying a foreigner, to report to the KGB, or provide any information that might come to your knowledge as a result of information that your husband might share with you?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - At the time of your departure or the application for departure from the Soviet Union, were you questioned by the KGB?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - Were you questioned by any Soviet authority as to the reasons why you wanted to leave the country, other than the people you would normally meet during the normal application, visa application process?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - Do you know whether or not your husband, Lee Oswald, at that time, was questioned by any Soviet officials as to why he wanted to leave the country?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know.
Mr. DODD - Do you remember when it was that you applied for an exit visa from Russia, what month?
Mrs. PORTER - If I recall correctly, it probably June.
Mr. DODD - I think June 1962 was when you actually left, June 2, 1962 is when you actually left. Do you recall when you made application?
Mrs. PORTER - June 1961.
Mr. DODD - I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER - It could be June 1961. It took whole year to wait for the permission and papers to be processed.
Mr. DODD - You made application in June of 1961?
Mrs. PORTER - If I am correct remembering the month, it took almost a year, a little over a year to wait for the permission.
Mr. DODD - When you left Russia, you went, you exited through Brest, I believe.
Mrs. PORTER - Brest, yes.
Mr. DODD - And then you went to Rotterdam.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - Was Lee Oswald with you the entire time, from the time you left the Soviet Union until the time you arrived in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - Was there any significant period of time when he was out of the area, when he was absent?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, we traveled by train to Rotterdam, and he didn't leave, I mean there is no way you can leave anyway on the train. He was present all the time.
Mr. DODD - All the time.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - Until you got to Rotterdam.
Mrs. PORTER - Except maybe when he went, you know, for the bathroom and things like that.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has again expired.
Mr. DODD - I ask, if I can, unanimous consent for 1 additional minute to finish this line of questioning.
Chairman STOKES - Without objection the gentleman is recognized.
Mr. DODD - You were in Rotterdam for how long?
Mrs. PORTER - I think we spent 1 night over there, I think.
Mr. DODD - If I told you it was 3 days, would you argue with me?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - During that 3-day period, did you see anyone, other than Lee Oswald? Did you meet any people?
Mrs. PORTER - Not--I seen some faces and people around, but I did not talk to anyone.
Mr. DODD - Where did you stay in Rotterdam?
Mrs. PORTER - It looked like a boarding house somewhat.
Mr. DODD - How did you get the name of that boarding house? Did someone give you that or did you just come across it?
Mrs. PORTER - I think Lee had some kind of preliminary--is that the correct word to use?
Mr. DODD - I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER - Anyway, it was Lee who arranged, or somebody arranged for him. I do not know who it was or who recommended certain---
Mr. DODD - I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER - I did not know who recommended a certain place.
Mr. DODD - But it was clear to you that when you arrived there, the people knew that you were going to be there.
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know.
Mr. DODD - When you walked in the door, did they say "Hello, it is nice to see you. We have been waiting for you"?
Mrs. PORTER - I did not speak English, so Lee was doing all the talking. I just followed him.
Mr. DODD - They spoke English then.
Mrs. PORTER - I assumed they were.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. DODD - I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will come back to this.
Chairman STOKES - The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Ford
Mr. FORD - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, back to the question of
Mr. DODD - When you and your husband received the visa to return to the United States, did you ever wonder why or inquire as to why it was so easy to obtain the visas?
Mrs. PORTER - It wasn't easy. It was lots of redtape and lots of agony of waiting period, and up to the last minute, I did not know if we going to be permitted to leave the country or not, so it really came as a nice surprise.
Mr. FORD - Over what period of time? Was it 1 month or 2 months?
Mrs. PORTER - It took almost a year, a little over a year.
Mr. FORD - A little over a year.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. FORD - Why is it you were unable to identify the rifle that allegedly belonged to Lee Oswald when you have testified that you saw it on numerous occasions, moved it around while cleaning the house, and had taken photos of Lee with the rifle in his hand?
Mrs. PORTER - Would you please pardon me, my ignorance, but all the rifles look alike to me, unless it is the very small size and a large size. I am not expert on the rifles or guns.
Mr. FORD - Did it look the same?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, unless they paint it black and white, I would not really know the difference, brown, you know, lighter color or darker color or something, but----
Mr. FORD - There wasn't anything about that rifle that stuck in your mind that you might have used to later identify it?
Mrs. PORTER - No; I don't.
Mr. FORD - Who brought it to your attention that you had destroyed some of the photos of Lee taken with the rifle and the handgun? How were they aware that you had destroyed some of the pictures?
Mrs. PORTER - Would you please repeat the beginning of your question?
Mr. FORD - Yes. Who brought it to your attention that you had destroyed some of the photos of Lee taken with the rifle and the handgun, and how were they aware that you had destroyed some of the pictures?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember who pointed out to me.
Mr. FORD - I didn't hear you.
Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember who pointed this out to me.
Mr. FORD - You don't recall who?
Mrs. PORTER - No; I don't.
Mr. FORD - Mrs. Porter, you have told so many different versions of this period for various reasons, to protect Lee, to protect yourself, to keep from being sent back to Russia because of fear or strong emotions. I want to ask now, are you sure that at this point you are really clear on these facts, or have your many stories confused you as well as the American people?
Mrs. PORTER - The question is so long it is not easy to answer.
Mr. FORD - Let me repeat it to you in parts then. You have told many different versions of this period for various reasons. You have testified that you did this to protect Lee, to protect yourself, to keep from being sent back to Russia, because of fear, or strong emotions. Are you sure that you have not confused yourself; do you know the truth at this point? What are you telling us? At what point are we to believe what you are saying before this committee?
Mrs. PORTER - May I consult with my attorney, please?
Mr. FORD - Yes. [Witness consults with counsel.]
Mrs. PORTER - I am sorry. If you are trying, if you are asking me if I do know anything more than I already said, that is what the question was.
Anyway I am telling absolutely the truth. I do not know anything more. Of course, it is very confusing when you read so many things in the newspapers, and I am just as anxious to find the answers as everybody else.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. FORD - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan,
Mr. SAWYER -
Mr. SAWYER - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, I am curious. Why have you not obtained citizenship or applied for it by now?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, because I am quite lazy about to do so. I would love to become American citizen. I will be honored to become American citizen, but with the household duties, and you do have to take time to study certain literature and really be prepared to be accepted, you know, to pass exams and things like that. Another thing, I am afraid that maybe I will be refused, and I don't want to take a defeat.
Mr. SAWYER - As I understood your testimony, you never heard of Jack Ruby before this assassination and subsequent events.
Mrs. PORTER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - Did Oswald ever mention anything about the Carousel?
Mrs. PORTER - I was quite surprised when they start talking about Jack Ruby and asking questions about, did he ever went to the bar? Of course I wasn't present there, so I would not know. But Lee wasn't drinking. I mean he did not drink. So I don't see any reason for him to go to a bar or places like it.
Mr. SAWYER - But you never heard Lee mention the Carousel, I assume.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - And did he ever mention any friends that he might have had, or acquaintances in the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - Never mentioned--that he had--
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER [continuing]. Any acquaintance there. Referring now to the writing on the reverse side of the picture that is up there on the board, what do those top two lines say in Russian? Can you tell me?
Mrs. PORTER - You want me to translate it to English?
Mr. SAWYER - Yes.
Mrs. PORTER - "Hunter for the fascists."
Mr. SAWYER - "Hunter for the fascists."
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, "Ha, ha, ha," You know.
Mr. SAWYER - But the writing before the "Ha, ha, ha" is "Hunter for the fascists" is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And then the writing down in the lower right "To my friend George. From Lee Oswald" did I understand whether or not you could identify that as Lee's writing?
Mrs. PORTER - I cannot identify it as Lee's writing. I cannot, I do not remember what Lee's handwriting looks like in English. I do not have anything in my hands to compare.
Mr. SAWYER - So that when you can't, it is merely that you don't know whether it is or not. You don't have an opinion that it is not his handwriting.
Mrs. PORTER - That is true. It is for experts to compare.
Mr. SAWYER - And the way the date is written,,there, "5," and then a slant, and then "IV, and then slant and 63 do I understand that would be a way in writing it in Russian of 5 April 1963, in effect?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. SAWYER - Because they use a Roman numeral for the month.
Mrs. PORTER - Some do, yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And usually they have the month follow the date, like they do in the Navy or other.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I guess so.
Mr. SAWYER - I presume that George is DeMohrenschildt; am I correct on that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - Because down where it says "Copyright," then in the same handwriting as the copyright is written, it has "G" and then "de" and then "M" which I presume are George DeMohrenschildt's initials.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes; I presume that is.
Mr. SAWYER - Do you know whose writing it is in Russian up at the top, where it says "Hunter for fascists. Ha, ha, ha"?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, some letters would be, look like I would write, but some not, so I am confused about that inscription in the back.
Mr. SAWYER - You don't know whether that is your writing or not, or do you know it is not? You are not clear on it?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, like if I look at first, you know, I think yes, it is my handwriting, until I start to analyze it, and it is not. Those letters "Ha, ha, ha," you know, the letter "Ha," that is not my way of writing this certain letter.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. SAWYER - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - The gentleman from the District of Columbia,
Mr. FAUNTROY -
Mr. FAUNTROY - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Porter, would you refresh me on why you moved to Minsk?
Mrs. PORTER - Why did I move to Minsk? I did not have very good relationship with my stepfather, and it was lots of static in the air and friction between two of us, so I felt like I was in his way, and I had nowhere else, no other place to go, except where my aunt and uncle live. So I took a chance to go with them, find a job during the summer.
Mr. FAUNTROY - And you lived with your aunt and uncle?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. FAUNTROY - And your uncle never talked to you about his work at all?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Did you know where he worked?
Mrs. PORTER - At a building?
Mr. FAUNTROY - No; did you know for what agency he worked?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FAUNTROY - He never talked about his work.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FAUNTROY [continuing]. To you?
Mrs. PORTER - It wasn't customary for people who worked for MVD to discuss their job at home. Excuse me. [Witness consults with counsel.]
Mrs. PORTER - Oh, excuse me, sir, did I understand you right? You said did I know if my uncle was working for MVD? That was your question?
Mr. FAUNTROY - Yes.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I did know that he was working for MVD, yes.
Mr. FAUNTROY - So your testimony is that you knew he was working---
Mrs. PORTER - For MVD, but I did not know what he did.
Mr. FAUNTROY - He never discussed that with you.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FAUNTROY [continuing]. In any way?
Mrs. PORTER - Or with his wife either.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Was it customary in your experience as a teenager that people met and married within 6 weeks?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't think so. Some do and some don't.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Some do and some don't. Would you say that your relationship with Lee Oswald was one of love at first sight?
Mrs. PORTER - No. I like him, but I did not fall in love right away.
Mr. FAUNTROY - It does strike at least this member as strange that you could get married in 6 weeks.
Mrs. PORTER - Well, he was appealing to me. I did not marry him because he was American who will bring me back, I mean who will take me to United States. In fact, if I knew that he will come back, I would not marry him.
Mr. FAUNTROY - So it was not a motivation of your wanting to come to United States?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FAUNTROY - That may have been.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FAUNTROY - That is not the explanation for the 6 weeks?
Mrs. PORTER - No, it is not, because of my hatred of United States.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Nor is it that you were head-over-heels in love with him.
Mrs. PORTER - Pardon me?
Mr. FAUNTROY - Nor was it that you were head-over-heels in love with him.
Mrs. PORTER - Well--
Mr. FAUNTROY - I guess that is a difficult question to answer. Yousimply state it wasn't---
Mrs. PORTER - It wasn't for the reason of becoming, I mean to come here.
Mr. FAUNTROY - All right. I just have one other question which relates to the question of Mr. Oswald's attitude toward the FBI. You do recall that you indicated to the Warren Commission that he became involved with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans after he had lost his job?
Mrs. PORTER - I guess that is correct.
Mr. FAUNTROY - And then to the FBI you indicated that he lost his job because of his work with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Mrs. PORTER - Well, that is correct.
Mr. FAUNTROY - And yesterday you said that Lee blamed the FBI for the loss of his job?
Mrs. PORTER - Every time he lost job, he told me that the reasons for that were probably because FBI harass him so. I got the impressions that FBI are not treating him, you know, fair.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. FAUNTROY - May I ask unanimous consent for 1 additional minute, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman STOKES - Without objection, the gentleman is recognized.
Mr. FAUNTROY - And I understand yesterday that you also said, you admitted you were lying to the Warren Commission?
Mrs. PORTER - No; I didn't.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Which was it?
Mrs. PORTER - I wasn't lying. I wasn't delivering maybe correct or right away on-the-spot information to FBI. I think that is what was said yesterday. Much testimony to FBI and Warren Commission sometimes were contradictory.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Tell me what your recollection now of the truth is?
Mrs. PORTER - In what regard? I mean everything I am telling is the truth.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Did Mr. Oswald begin his work with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee after losing his job, or did he lose his job in your view because of the work with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and as a result, of FBI intervention?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, when I was married to Lee, and because only most of information or whatever I got from him, then I blame FBI for him losing the job, but analyzing later on, him as a person, that wasn't the reason for him losing the job, so in my mind now he did not lose the job because of the FBI.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has again expired.
Mr. FAUNTROY - Thank you.
Chairman STOKES - The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Fithian
Mr. FITHIAN - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, I want to return to the inscription on the back of the photograph briefly. Before I do that, let me ask you how much education have you had, how many years of schooling?
Mrs. PORTER - I finish school and I attend pharmacy school afterward for 4 years. I have a diploma, you know, to be a pharmacist.
Mr. FITHIAN - I have only had a little bit of study of the Russian language, but even a very cursory, very brief glance at the back of that photograph would indicate that not even a grade school student of Russian writing would have written that. Now I could go through several reasons why I cannot believe you would ever have written it, unless you were intentionally trying to mislead someone. Just a couple of very quick things. The differences between the Russian "t" or "ta" in the what the Russian word "okhotnik" as compared to the "fash(i)stami" are clearly either written by someone who doesn't know Russian, or the two words are written by different people, because in that sequence of an internal "t" you would simply not make the English "m" with a crossbar over in one case and turn around and use the English "t" in "fash(i)stami." I could go on. The three "a' s" in "ha, ha, ha" do not match. The "e" in the Russian word "okhotnik" is printed in a very awkward and broken fashion. The "f' in the "fash(i)stami" it seems to me is written in a very unusual manner with the loops on the "f' at the top of the cross staff and so on. Can't you testify to this committee that you did not indeed write that on that photograph?
Mrs. PORTER - As I told you, I am just puzzled, and I am just as curious as you are.
Mr. FITHIAN - But we will get later today to discussing the handwriting. I am simply asking you, cannot you at this point specifically testify to this committee that that is not your writing?
Mrs. PORTER - Yesterday I was thinking after I left this room, I was thinking exactly the same thing as you did, or that had been written by a very old person, because sometimes people with the age, they don't have such a good grip, or a child.
Mr. FITHIAN - Anyone trained in Russian schools after 1930 or 1935 would not have been trained with the bar over the "m" to make the Russian "t" and there are just a number of other items of caligraphy and handwriting and I am not a handwriting expert, but all I am saying is you cannot testify---
Mrs. PORTER - I cannot claim this as my handwriting. But I told yesterday this is my way of writing "t." I put the dart, whatever you call it, line on top of "t." This is my habit of writing "t."
Mr. FITHIAN - You do use the equivalent of the English "m" with the bar across it---
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I use both. Mr. FITHIAN [continuing]. As in the Russian word of "okhotnik"?
Mrs. PORTER - In the word of okhotnik, if I have time, I write "t" that way. If I am in a hurry, writing a letter another "t" with the word fascist.
Mr. FITHIAN - That is the way you write "t."
Mrs. PORTER - In a hurry I write "t," yes, but I cannot claim the whole world, I mean the whole word, or the whole sentence was written by me.
Mr. FITHIAN - Let me ask you this: Is it possible that the word "okhotnik" was on the photograph written by someone else, and then you added the "sa" fash(i)stami?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FITHIAN - You did not do that.
Mrs. PORTER - NO; I do not remember ever writing anything on the photograph.
Mr. FITHIAN - And then looking at the words, isn't it your best judgment that you indeed did not write any of those words?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't recall writing--anything.
Mr. FITHIAN - I am not asking what you recall. I am asking you to look at it, and you know your handwriting over some years, and can't you simply flat out testify to this committee that you did not, that that is not your handwriting?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I told you yesterday my handwriting is not very consistent. You know, like if I start a letter, I do not finish it with the more or less same handwriting. But as I said, I am not expert. I am very confused about this picture. I do not remember writing anything on it. If I started studying the handwriting and claim it as my own, I can't.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. FITHIAN - I ask unanimous consent to proceed for a few minutes.
Mrs. PORTER - Excuse me, can I talk to my lawyer? [Witness consults with counsel.]
Chairman STOKES - Without objection, the gentleman is recognized for an additional 3 minutes.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did you tell Mrs. McMillan that that was not your writing?
Mrs. PORTER - I probably have. We discussed that, yes.
Mr. FITHIAN - And you told her it was your best guess, your best judgment, that that was not your writing?
Mrs. PORTER - I can't say I can say that that doesn't look like my handwriting.
Is that what you are asking?
Mr. FITHIAN - No, I am asking you what you told Mrs. McMillan.
Mrs. PORTER - Well, we work on the book. Do you mean when we work on the book?
It was so long ago, I don't remember what we were talking about, and this picture didn't come, I mean I never seen this.
Mr. FITHIAN - Let's turn to the picture, the pictures, and the negatives which went along with them. You told the committee yesterday that you burned some of the evidence, some pictures, et cetera, after the assassination of President Kennedy; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. FITHIAN - Do you remember burning any negatives, that is, the film from which the picture is made?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FITHIAN - All you remember is burning pictures themselves?
Mrs. PORTER - I vaguely remember destroying the pictures, a picture.
Mr. FITHIAN - What other evidence or material did you destroy in your haste to try to get rid of evidence?
Mrs. PORTER - As far as I know, only that, this picture.
Mr. FITHIAN - In Lee's practice of writing a kind of a diary, did he keep letters from other people as a part of that sort of keeping a track or keeping a record of things?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN - What?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not know.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did you ever see any letters in his writing and material from others?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't have a habit to go through, you know, somebody's belongings, so I don't remember everything, letters, unless they were addressed to me and would receive some letters, sometime Lee let me to read them, or tell me what it was all about.
Mr. FITHIAN - Was it his custom when he wrote a letter to a person to make a copy for himself?.
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know, sir.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has again expired.
Mr. FITHIAN - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - The gentleman from Ohio,
Mr. DEVINE -
Mr. DEVINE - Mrs. Porter, how did you happen to land in Mrs. Paine's residence? Who found that place to live? Was it you or was it Lee?
Mrs. PORTER - I forgot how I was introduced to Mrs. Paine and how we met. But she was a very kind and generous person. She did study Russian in Berlitz School, and in order not to offend me by just inviting to live as a charity to her house, she asked if I can help her with her Russian studies, and that was my payment for.
Mr. DEVINE - Who knew her, met her originally?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't recall. I am sorry.
Mr. DEVINE - Who made the initial contact with her to live in her home?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember.
Mr. DEVINE - You don't know. Was she aware that Lee had ammunition and guns among your personal property there?
Mrs. PORTER - I wouldn't know. I did not tell her.
Mr. DEVINE - I believe you said that he kept the gun in a blanket in the garage; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - He kept rifle in the garage, yes.
Mr. DEVINE - So she wouldn't necessarily know that.
Mrs. PORTER - I don't think so.
Mr. DEVINE - Following the assassination of the President, this committee has received evidence that your then husband left the book depository, walked several blocks, caught a bus. The bus became involved in traffic. He left the bus, hired a taxicab which took him back to the neighborhood. Did you see Lee after seeing the announcement on television that the President had been assassinated?

Mrs. PORTER - Did I see him?

Mr. DEVINE - Yes.

Mrs. PORTER - No. I saw him the last, the next time, in jail.

Mr. DEVINE - He did not come to the residence, as far as you know.

Mrs. PORTER - Sir, Irving is quite far away from Dallas.

Mr. DEVINE - I didn't understand.

Mrs. PORTER - I was at Ruth Paine's house, a suburb of Dallas. Unless somebody drove him there, he could not come.

Mr. DEVINE - You don't know whether he had the handgun then when he left that morning or not?

Mrs. PORTER - I don't know. I didn't see him leaving.
Mr. DEVINE - The evidence further shows that after he was in the neighborhood of the Paine residence, he then on foot went several blocks away, at which time he was confronted by Officer Tippit.
Mrs. PORTER - I believe you are a little bit confused about Paine residence, sir.
Mr. DEVINE - Right, right, but then you would reaffirm the fact that you did not see Lee from the time he left early that morning to go to work until you then saw him in jail.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DEVINE - I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Indiana; the gentleman from Pennsylvania, rather, Mr. Edgar
Mr. EDGAR - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Porter, just to follow up on that question, we had an opportunity to go to Dallas and look at the neighborhood where Lee Oswald had his apartment. You had indicated that he came the night before to your residence with Mrs. Paine. How did he get there?
Mrs. PORTER - I forgot this man that he worked with at the school book depository, he was a neighbor, and he usually gave Lee a lift, he dropped him off.
Mr. EDGAR - I am interested in trying to develop a personal picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, and you have given us some clues. You have indicated that he did not drink. You had indicated that he sat for long periods of time looking, and playing and using his rifle. What is a description of him as a person? This individual you met, and within 6 weeks married, must have made some impression on you in terms of his personality. Can you describe for the committee what Lee Harvey Oswald was like as a person?
Mrs. PORTER - I am afraid I cannot describe person just in one statement or one small phrase.
Mr. EDGAR - What did he look like?
Mrs. PORTER - You mean physically?
Mr. EDGAR - Physically.
Mrs. PORTER - He wasn't very tall man. He was a little bit taller than me. I mean, whatever, he was neat in appearance, he had good manners, in Russia.
Mr. EDGAR - Was he strong?
Mrs. PORTER - Pardon me?
Mr. EDGAR - Was he strong?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, he was stronger than me, but he wasn't a he man.
Mr. EDGAR - What was his attitude towards himself?.
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know. I am sorry.
Mr. EDGAR - Let me ask you this question: Did you get the sense from him that he wanted to feel like a man, that is, to be very strong and very powerful?
Mrs. PORTER - Not physically powerful, I don't think that was.
Mr. EDGAR - Mentally powerful?
Mrs. PORTER - I think he want to be somebody, I guess. He want to be recognized by people, or maybe have a better job that he think that he was entitled to.
Mr. EDGAR - So he had the sense of himself that he was more important or he wanted to be more important than people were recognizing him to be.
Mrs. PORTER - That is correct.
Mr. EDGAR - And how did he treat you? Was he gentle to you as an individual?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, part, some, like when we were in Russia he was quite gentle and nice and thoughtful. But when we came to United States, his personality was changing, and he was cruel many times.
Mr. EDGAR - He was cruel. You indicated that he was cruel in the activity around General Walker, and you indicated some other illustrations of his cruelty. Can you recollect any time in which he was cruel to you? Did he beat you physically?
Mrs. PORTER - That is not very pleasant thing to talk about, but the answer is yes.
Mr. EDGAR - The answer is yes.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. EDGAR - He physically hit you--
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. EDGAR [continuing]. At some point. Did you ever require any medical treatment because of his cruelty?
Mrs. PORTER - No, I did not.
Mr. EDGAR - You indicated that you knew that he had the rifle, and you knew about the attack on General Walker. You knew about the suggested or attempted attack on Mr. Nixon. To your best recollection, were there any other incidences that you can recall where he fired the rifle, either at someone or in your presence?
Mrs. PORTER - That is only facts that I know.
Mr. EDGAR - Can you recall whether he committed any crimes that have so far not been brought out in your testimony?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know any of those.
Mr. EDGAR - Did he have any other rifles or any other weapons other than the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. PORTER - Not to my knowledge. That is all I know of.
Mr. EDGAR - Let me ask you this question. This is a little bit off the course of those questions but it is one that has intrigued me. Lee Harvey Oswald met you in Russia. You spent a little over a year together married and then you came to the United States. You had a job, and he was bringing home a paycheck. You were living fairly well off, at least for Russian standards at the time. How did you pay for your trip from Russia to the United States? Where did that money come from?
Mrs. PORTER - As far as I know, Lee told me he borrowed from the American Embassy.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. EDGAR - May I have two additional minutes, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman STOKES - Without objection, the gentleman is recognized for an additional 2 minutes.
Mr. EDGAR - Thank you. To the best of your recollection, he borrowed the money from U.S. Embassy?
Mrs. PORTER - That is what he told me.
Mr. EDGAR - Did he at any time, to your knowledge, physically go to the U.S. Embassy--
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir
Mr. EDGAR [continuing]. To pick the money up?
Mrs. PORTER - Oh, I answered the question: that did he physically go to the Embassy? I said yes. But then you said to pick the money. I do not remember how and when he picked, you know, he got the money.
Mr. EDGAR - When you arrived in the United States, did Lee seem to have some money to hold you over until he got a job?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember how much money he had left. I do not recall if he had any left or not.
Mr. EDGAR - How did you pay for your food?
Mrs. PORTER - We live with his brother for a while.
Mr. EDGAR - How did you pay for just your general expenses?
Mrs. PORTER - I never handled the money when I was married to Lee. He was the one.
Mr. EDGAR - He handled all of the money.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. EDGAR - How long after you returned to the United States did he get a job?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember.
Mr. EDGAR - Two weeks, three weeks?
Mrs. PORTER - That sound right.
Mr. EDGAR - So there is a 2- or 3-week period where he was looking for a job and not working.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. EDGAR - Thank you. I yield back my time, and I will come back to questions later.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. Mrs. Porter, this morning in response to a question from Mr. Dodd, relative to your opinion as to whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald killed the President, you said your opinion was yes. Now this is not the first time you have expressed that opinion, is it?
Mrs. PORTER - That is correct.
Chairman STOKES - Let me see if I can refresh your recollection to this extent. Do you recall during the Warren Commission hearings the late Congressman Boggs saying this to you: Let's get an answer. I think this answer is quite important.
Mrs. OSWALD. On the basis of all the available facts, I have no doubt in my mind that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy. At the same time I feel in my own mind, as far as I am concerned, I feel that Lee, that my husband, perhaps intended to kill Governor Connally instead of President Kennedy. Do you recall that question being asked by the late Congressman Boggs, and your answer being as I read it?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not recall. I never, you know, went back and read my testimony. But if it is printed, that is--since you refresh my memory, that is possible. I am for sure I said that.
Chairman STOKES - So that I understand you, my having read this to you, does this now then refresh your recollection of what you said on that occasion?
Mrs. PORTER - Because I do not remember Senator so and so that you mentioned it, it was so many people around, so many faces, I did not remember, you know, person.
Chairman STOKES - I can understand you perhaps dO not remember that particular Congressman. What I am saying to you is, with my having read this to you now, does this refresh your recollection of what was asked of you and what you said on that occasion?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I really do not remember what I said, but if under oath to the Warren Commission I gave that testimony, that is my testimony.
Chairman STOKES - Then you do not deny that that was your testimony.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Chairman STOKES - Now again you know Priscilla Johnson McMillan, don't you?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES - That is the lady who wrote the book "Marina and Lee."
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - And you talked with her with reference to what she was writing about the book, didn't you?
Mrs. PORTER - Sure.
Chairman STOKES - You have read that book?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes; not recently but a year ago.
Chairman STOKES - I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PORTER - A year ago, yes.
Chairman STOKES - A year ago, right. Let me read this passage to you from the book. I am reading at page 436. Marina was now certain that Lee was guilty. She saw his guilt in his eyes. Moreover, she knew that had he been innocent, he would have been screaming to high heaven for his rights, claiming he had been mistreated, and demanding to see officials at the very highest levels, just as he had always done before. For her, the fact that he was so compliant, that he told her he was being treated all right, was a sign that he was guilty. Did you tell Miss Johnson that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - Now in addition to it, you told Miss Johnson, did you not, about the police coming and taking away many possessions, and one of the possessions that they left was a small demitasse cup, and when you looked and discovered the fact that they had not taken the cup, you also found in there Lee's wedding ring. Did you tell her about that?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I do not--I remember the demitasse, but it is missed. I don't know where it is. Are you asking me did I find Lee's ring?
Chairman STOKES - Did you find his ring?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES - And then did you tell Miss Johnson this: "Oh, no," she. thought, and her heart sank again, "Lee never took his ring off, not even on his grimiest manual jobs. She had seen him wearing it the night before. Marina suddenly realized what it meant. Lee had not just gone out and shot the President spontaneously. He had intended to do it when he left for work that day. Again things were falling into place. Marina told no one about Lee's ring." Did you tell Miss Johnson that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - As my time has expired, the Chair would request unanimous consent to proceed for 3 additional minutes. Without objection. Now did you tell--
Mr. FAUNTROY - Over ruled, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - That is democracy. Mrs. Porter, it has always been important for the American people to ascribe some motive to this killing. And I notice further that, in the same book, Miss Johnson writes this, and I am reading at page 434 of the book: In his eyes, his political ideas stood higher even than himself. He would talk about Marxism, Communism, and injustice all over the world. Did you tell Miss Johnson that?
Mrs. PORTER - That was Miss Johnson's conclusion about studying Lee as a person. Her findings weren't based only on what I told her. She did great research and met with lots of people who knew Lee. That was her conclusion, and I agree with her.
Chairman STOKES - Did you tell her that he talked about Marxism to you, and about communism to you, and about injustice all over the world to you?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, probably. [Witness consults with counsel.]
Mrs. PORTER - Well, when you live with person, you know, a few years, and then you have to put bits and pieces of phrases that have been told, and Priscilla worked, will have to go and think about what conversations we have, not to make them up, but to relive them again. That is correct statement that she made.
Chairman STOKES - So that we understand you, he did express himself to you on these kinds of subjects, did he not?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, it is not maybe directly to me or maybe he discussed with somebody else and I overhear the conversation.
Chairman STOKES - And when you overheard the conversations, these were conversations you understood?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - What he was saying?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - And did he have strong views?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I cannot recall right now the contents of conversation. The book had been started long time ago. My memory was much fresher then.
Chairman STOKES - There has been some discussion with you with reference to the fact that you told certain untruths to both the FBI and the Secret Service for the reason that you wanted to protect Lee. At the same time you were the individual who revealed to the FBI what you knew about the General Walker shooting; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - Can you explain to us why you would attempt to protect him by telling untruths about other things, such as the rifle, the trip to Mexico, things of that nature, and then would reveal to them something that no one else in the world knew but you?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't think just FBI little by little get all information that I know of, and I just did not come to them and say hey, you know, Lee tried to shoot Walker. But they have been probing and they have, how do you call it, some facts, you know, and by questioning me, you know, quite often I had to reveal the information. You know what I mean? I was cooperative then.
Chairman STOKES - But prior to your revealing it, the FBI had not found out on their own that Lee Harvey Oswald had shot at General Walker, had they?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know how they done their work. I do not remember when is exactly happen and how it is happened. I told you my reason for withholding it, information, or did not tell exact truth to FBI during the questioning was because of fear for my well being, for my children. I did protect Lee when he was alive because I didn't know what to make of it. I thought maybe he is innocent. It was a hope that he is. It was a very confused state of mind that I had then.
Chairman STOKES - But when you told them about the Walker incident, was it because you were afraid that they would find out about it?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember what the reasons exactly were at the time, and maybe didn't happen in one session, maybe just little by little, but I just want to clean my conscience completely. I want to give everything that I could.
Chairman STOKES - I don't quite understand. You said you wanted to clear your conscience of everything that you knew?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, eventually I said everything that I know of Lee and I try to be helpful to a matter by testifying before Warren Commission, talking with you right now.
Chairman STOKES - What I am talking about was the FBI and the others who were talking with you at that time.
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I have hours of testimony with the FBI and Secret Service, so whatever they put together can reveal some kind of picture, and I know it is not flattering, I mean to me, but that is the way it was.
Chairman STOKES - Let me go into another area with you. You have given some testimony with reference to the fact that when you and Lee were living in Russia, that you felt that your mail was being opened, that your telephones were being tapped.
Mrs. PORTER - We did not have telephone.

Chairman STOKES - I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER - We did not have telephone.
Chairman STOKES - You did not have a telephone?
Mrs. PORTER - No not at our apartment.
Chairman STOKES - At any time there in Russia, did you have a telephone?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Chairman STOKES - I am not quite clear on whether you have told us that you were aware of the fact that you were being watched and monitored by someone there. Were you?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I really did not have any doubts that they would keep eye on a foreigner.
Chairman STOKES - By "they," whom do you mean?
Mrs. PORTER - Some authorities, I don't know.
Chairman STOKES - I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PORTER - Some authorities who were supposed to do that. I don't know. Anyway it is gossip or whatever, that people in Russia do think, you know, they are watched.
Chairman STOKES - Can you be more specific when you say "some authorities"? Tell us whom you are talking about.
Mrs. PORTER - Well, it is not somebody dressed in a uniform, you know, like maybe secret police maybe. I don't know.
Chairman STOKES - Didn't you tell Miss Johnson about someone that you walked over to, that you recognized in a railroad station, that you walked over to, a KGB agent?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember that right now.
Chairman STOKES - Do you recall talking with anyone in the organization that you were in, the Komsomol, about the fact that you were being watched?
Mrs. PORTER - I probably have, but I do not recall right now.
Chairman STOKES - Again in Priscilla Johnson's book, at page 139, where she says this: "The chairman told her that the Komsomol knew everything about her and her husband.' We knew each time you had a date. We knew when you applied for your marriage license. We knew the date of your wedding,' he said. Marina was chilled but not surprised. She had long been aware that the Komsomol was a tool of the police. Its members were often assigned to report on the activities of their friends." Did you tell Miss Johnson that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes; and all the facts in the book are true. But when you ask me right now, I could not remember; you know what mean? Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, if this is a convenient time, can we take a break, a 5-minute break?
Chairman STOKES - Just one other question and then we will take a break. You just said everything in this book--
Mrs. PORTER - The facts are true, yes. Chairman STOKES [continuing]. Are true, the facts are true. And here, where you refer to the chairman, who were you talking about?
Mrs. PORTER - The chairman?
Chairman STOKES - Yes.
Mrs. PORTER - I guess the person who conduct meeting or something like that.
Chairman STOKES - Counsel, we will at this time grant your request. We will take a 5-minute recess. Everyone, please remain seated while the witness leaves the room. [Recess.]
Chairman STOKES - The Committee will come to order. All persons are requested to take their seats and remain in their seats until the witness has again come into the room and been seated at the witness table. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Sawyer
Mr. SAWYER - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Coming back to, well, the picture is gone now, but the writing on the reverse side, they do not in Russia use exclamation marks, do they?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - Do they? Would they use three exclamation marks after---
Mrs. PORTER - Any number you like.
Mr. SAWYER - Pardon?
Mrs. PORTER - Any number that you like, yes; one or three, yes.
Mr. SAWYER - Do you know whether or not that writing in Russian onthe top that says "Hunter for Fascists, ha ha ha" would have been Lee's writing?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not know, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - You do not think so?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not know whose writing that is.
Mr. SAWYER - You do not know; is that right?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - Did you ever see any writing by Mr. DeMohrenschildt?
Mrs. PORTER - Not that I recall.
Mr. SAWYER - I remember your testifying yesterday that you were startled, I think were your words, or shocked to find that DeMohrenschildt knew about Lee's having shot at General Walker. Do you recall that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And you were startled because you knew you had not told him about it?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And I notice that the date on the transmittal of this picture to George DeMohrenschildt is April 5, 1963, whereas Walker was shot at on April 23, 1963, so presumably DeMohrenschildt not only knew about the fact that Lee had shot at Walker, but had received this picture from Lee before that date, before the date of that shooting; is that right?
Mrs. PORTER - So what would you like me to--so what is the purpose of this question? I mean, I did not send this picture.
Mr. SAWYER - Well, just as I look at this, and I do not purport to be any kind of a handwriting expert, but the writing at the bottom, "Copyright G.dM." appears to have some considerable significance, similarity to the letters of the title written up there in Russian. Did DeMohrenschildt speak and write Russian?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I think he did.
Mr. SAWYER - Fluently?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And as I recall, you said that Lee referred to General Walker as a fascist; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.

Mr. SAWYER - But you are not familiar with the handwriting of DeMohrenschildt yourself?.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - But you do not think this is your handwriting, in any event?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not think so, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - And as to whether it would be Lee's or not, you just do not know; is this right?
Mrs. PORTER - No. I mean if anybody have my handwriting, you know, in Russian somewhere they are welcome to compare.
Mr. SAWYER - When DeMohrenschildt led you to understand, from whatever he said, let you understand he had known about the shooting by Oswald at Walker, what precisely did he say then?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not recall the incident, you know, very clearly, but I think that I was kind of surprised that he made the remark like that, and I assumed that Lee told him, you know. I look at him and then Lee look at me and was thinking that I told him about. Maybe it was just his joking guess or something. Maybe he knew Lee quite well or better than---
Mr. SAWYER - Did you ask Lee about how he knew about it?
Mrs. PORTER - If I did, I do not recall right now, or remember.
Mr. SAWYER - Was there anything in what DeMohrenschildt said that may have been given the impression that he may have participated in that shooting?
Mrs. PORTER - It never crosed my mind, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - It never occurred to you?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - Did Lee ever say anything about DeMohrenschildt having participated in it with him?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - When he told you about it, did he tell you he did it alone?
Mrs. PORTER - As far as the Walker incident?
Mr. SAWYER - Yes.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - Is your answer yes?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And he never at any time mentioned that DeMoh- renschildt may have participated?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - Or aided or abetted in any way?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - NOW, when you saw on television that the President had been shot or were told that that is what was on television, you stated that the blood rushed to your face and that you were very upset momentarily. Do you recall that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - Did you then proceed immediately to go out and check in the garage to see if the rifle was gone?
Mrs. PORTER - I went outside in the backyard, you know, to the clothesline, because I do not want Ruth to see, you know, my face, and then I went in the garage, I think, I mean what I remember right now, and I did not check. I just looked and the blanket was there.
Mr. SAWYER - But did you not check to see if the rifle was there?
Mrs. PORTER - NO, and when police came and asked if my husband had the rifle, I said yes, and he said, "Where is it(?"'' )I said, "It's in the garage." And when they opened the blanket, it was empty.
Mr. SAWYER - Would not the first thing that you would do logically, if the thought crossed your mind sufficient to upset you enough so that you went outside that he may have done it, was to check to see if that rifle was there or not?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, maybe it is logical thing to do, but I did not check the inside. If I went and check, the blanket was folded, I mean as kind of long like something was in it.
Mr. SAWYER - But you did check to see if the blanket was there?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, but I did not check inside.
Mr. SAWYER - You did not check inside the blanket?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Chairman. STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. SAWYER - Mr. Chairman, I want to just make one correction, and that is that when I said General Walker was shot at on April 23, I misstated. It was April 10, which still is 5 days after that date. Thank you.
Chairman. STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Preyer.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make one more effort in this area of the motive that Lee Harvey Oswald might have had in the assassination. I think the American public has found it easier to understand how it happened, and they have to understand why it happened. I understand your answer yesterday to my question about what was his motive to in effect say that motivation is complex, and you were reluctant to say any one thing caused him to do this, but I would like to ask your help, not in saying any one thing caused him to do it, but whether you think one or more factors that I will mention to you might have had a bearing on it. The broadest question I think in the American public's mind is, was it a politically motivated act or was it an intentionally personal act that came out of some twisted personal psyche. On the political motivation side, we have seen the photographs of Oswald holding a rifle in one hand, the Socialist Workers Party paper in the other, in a defiant pose. We also know about his efforts to shoot General Walker. Those two things, when you put them together, raise the question of whether his motive could have been to make himself a hero of the American left, a hero of the left-wing political movement in this country. Do you in your personal opinion feel that that was a part of the motivation that made him assassinate the President?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, it is a quite difficult question to answer. I really do not know what to say about the motive. If you want my personal opinion about what I think, whether mental or political, I have to choose just the mental state of the person. Mr. PREYER. So that you would discount the political motivation as part of his motive? On the personal side of it, we do know the puzzling fact that he appeared to like President Kennedy, and therefore there would not seem to be any political motivation in killing the President. But that it could have been that he simply wanted to make himself important by killing someone important, that he simply wanted to kill the man at the top, no matter what the man at the top's political views were, whether right-wing or left-wing. Do you feel that this latter motivation was the most important part of his motivation, that is, some sort of personal desire to be self-important by killing someone important?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, the whole matter is so irrational it is very hard for us to even come up with any rational answers, but I would buy your statement that you made, the last one, about as long as somebody important, it probably does not matter what their political views are.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. PORTER - But this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. I would not know what a person thought about.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from the District of Columbia, Mr. Fauntroy
Mr. FAUNTROY - I have no questions at this time, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - The gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Dodd
Mr. DODD - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Porter, just a couple of questions. In your response to a question from Congressman Edgar about the kind of treatment that Lee Oswald gave you, you described it as brutal treatment. Later in your testimony yesterday, when asked about the FBI, and their treatment of you, you also described their treatment of you as brutal. Those were the words you used. I am wondering if you would like to clarify what you mean by that. You described today brutal treatment as being hit by Lee Oswald. Am I to understand that by the use of the word "brutal" in your description of how you were treated by the FBI that you are suggesting that you were also physically abused by the FBI?
Mrs. PORTER - I do apologize for my very poor vocabulary in the English language. Maybe I did misuse the word in retrospect. Brutal, in the case of Lee it was a physical abuse. I do not know a better word to describe it. When somebody treats you harshly and hurt you emotionally or have---
Mr. DODD - How would you describe it?
Mrs. PORTER - Anyway, FBI did not hit me physically.
Mr. DODD - It was more the tone of the questioning and so forth?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - I realize it has been a long time. It has been 15 years, and I think anyone would understand that having total recall of every event or circumstance is a difficult thing for anyone to do. But there were several times yesterday in your testimony where, and I limit this to myself, where I thought that your recollection should be better. Your response to a couple of questions was that you did not recall, and I would like to raise those couple of questions again and ask you whether or not you cannot do a bit better on your recollection for us. OK?
Mrs. PORTER - I am just trying my best.
Mr. DODD - I understand that, and I appreciate it. You destroyed, according to your testimony, these photos, some photos that we are talking about of Lee Oswald that you felt were incriminating to him, and in a question to you yesterday, you said
that you did not recall whether anyone had told you to destroy them or whether anyone was with you when you destroyed them. I would like to ask you again, Mrs. Porter--it is a very important question--whether or not anyone suggested to you, advised you, assisted you in any way in the destruction of those photographs after the assassination of the President. Can you clarify your statement with regard to that point?
Mrs. PORTER - I do believe that all this happened very shortly after assassination, and many times I was, I mean I still was for a long time in a state of shock, and lots of even days in my memory are very--they are completely blacked out, and it is not that I do not want to contribute to your questions and answers.
Mr. DODD - But you do remember destroying them?
Mrs. PORTER - I do remember destroying, as a fact.
Mr. DODD - Do you remember how you destroyed them?
Mrs. PORTER - I think somebody reminded me that I burned it. That rings the bell.
Mr. DODD - How did you destroy them?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember where I was, who was around, absolutely nothing.
Mr. DODD - In your memory can you see yourself destroying them?
Mrs. PORTER - I see only--No, I do not.
Mr. DODD - So you do not know how you destroyed them?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - And you have absolutely no recollection?
Mrs. PORTER - Not today, I do not. I am not refusing to answer it, but I do not want to paint picture that it was not existing.
Mr. DODD - Is your recollection that you destroyed these photographs before or after the FBI came to visit you?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember. I had many visits.
Mr. DODD - Do you remember the FBI visiting you?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, but it was so many visits, it was not just the one. It was every day.
Mr. DODD - The first?
Mrs. PORTER - The first FBI visit? I do not remember.
Mr. DODD - You do not remember whether you destroyed them before the FBI visit or after the FBI visit?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember. It was lots of officials. It was Secret Service and police, FBI all the time around.
Mr. DODD - All I am talking about now is the very first interview.
Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember. I do not remember who interviewed me the first time beside the police.
Mr. DODD - Let me go to one other point. You said that you recall that at least on one occasion prior to the assassination FBI Agent James Hosty came to your home and questioned you.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - All right, and you also recalled that your husband, Lee Oswald, was extremely upset about this visit of Hosty. You remember that as well, do you not?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I do.
Mr. DODD - But then all of a sudden you go blank on me. You do not remember whether or not Agent Hosty ever called on you again after the assassination or whether or not he was one of the
agents who questioned you after the assassination. Can you help us out at all in your recollection of that area?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes. My state of mind before the assassination was not just in a state of hazard as afterward. I do not remember Mr. Hosty's face at all, but I remember visit of his before assassination, and I think he came twice, because after the first visit Lee was upset and he told me if this man come back again, to take number of his license, his car's license, and that is what I did, so instead of, you know, answering that he had been there once, logically it is twice before assassination. But I do not remember this man afterwards at all.
Mr. DODD - You have no recollection of him coming by your house again?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. DODD - Could I just have one additional minute, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - Without objection, the gentleman is recognized.
Mr. DODD - I would like to go back again, if I could, Mrs. Porter, to your response to my questions about the stay in Rotterdam on your way from Russia. You stated today that you believed it was some sort of a boarding house.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. DODD - And if my memory serves me well, earlier statements with regard to this same incident, you had indicated that you stayed in the apartment, a private apartment in Rotterdam.
Mrs. PORTER - That is what I call boarding house. Is it a difference? It was like somebody's house.
Mr. DODD - It was someone's private dwelling, you did not pay to stay there?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, Lee did. I do not think it was for free. It was not a friend's house.
Mr. DODD - Which was-
Mrs. PORTER - The way I remember right now, what Lee told me, that it was somebody, private person rent a room inexpensively.
Mr. DODD - It was a place where you rent a room, then?
Mrs. PORTER - I think so, yes. It looks like a private house, and you pay for the room, because the lady of the house prepared the meal.
Mr. DODD - And it was your understanding--
Mrs. PORTER - Brought to the room.
Mr. DODD - It was your understanding that there were prior arrangements made for you to stay in this place?
Mrs. PORTER - I think so, but by whom I do not know.
Mr. DODD - And you do not have any recollection of the people at all?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DODD - Let me go back once more, just to the crossing of the border. Is it your statement that your husband, Lee Oswald, was with you when you crossed the border?
Mrs. PORTER - You mean from where, from Russia to--lots of borders were crossed between a few countries like Germany----
Mr. DODD - Let me make sure I have it correct. I think there was a crossing at Brest and another one at Helmstedt.
Mrs. PORTER - No, I think I said Brest, the last town between Poland and Russia.
Mr. DODD - And he was with you on both occasions?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD - There is no question in your mind about that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir, he was with me all the time.
Mr. DODD - Thank you,
Mrs. PORTER - I have no further questions.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Devine
Mr. DEVINE - Mrs. Porter, taking you clear back to the time that you originally met Lee, this was in Russia, you said you did not know he was from America or from the United States until someone later told you; is that accurate?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes. During the few dances with him he spoke with accent, but I did not know he was from America.
Mr. DEVINE - But his Russian was sufficiently fluent that you did not necessarily think he was necessarily a foreigner to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER - He spoke with accent but lots of people in Russia do speak with accent. They don't speak Russian very well, they have different nationalities than Russians.
Mr. DEVINE - But his Russian was pretty good at that time?
Mrs. PORTER - It was pretty good, yes.
Mr. DEVINE - A moment ago when I was questioning you, I recited the route of Lee after the time that he left the Book Depository. I misstated his destination in the taxicab. As I understand it, the evidence indicates that he hired the taxicab and returned to the area of his rooming house rather than Mrs. Paine's residence whereupon he apparently acquired the handgun, confronted Officer Tippit and then as he ran along he discharged cartridge cases and then ultimately disappeared into a theater where he was finally apprehended. You would again assert for the record that you did not see Lee from the time he left you on the morning of the assassination ostensibly to go to work until you later saw him after the assassination in the jail?
Mrs. PORTER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. DEVINE - And you have no recollection of his having called you on the telephone from the jail after the time you visited him?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. DEVINE - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. FORD.
Mr. FORD - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, why did you feel such strong loyalty to Lee to protect him, even to the point of giving misleading testimony, when during the great majority of your marriage he was brutal and violent to you?
Mrs. PORTER - You ask me why?
Mr. FORD - I am asking why did you feel such strong loyalty to Lee that you would give misleading testimony at different times?
Mrs. PORTER - I did not have anybody in this country but Lee.
Mr. FORD - Did not what?
Mrs. PORTER - I did not have anybody in this country but my husband. I do not know why I had this sense of loyalty or whatever. It is just me.
Mr. FORD - Is that why at different times you misled or gave misleading testimony to the agencies investigating the death of the President? Because you had no one else in this country but Lee, is that the reason?
Mrs. PORTER - It is not only that reason. It is lots of reasons together. You don't know why you make decisions. Maybe it is my age, maybe, maybe loyalty to Lee, maybe fear, but it is all complex feelings and that is the decision I had to make. I don't mean that that was the right decision always, but sometimes you do make wrong decisions.
Mr. FORD - Considering his actions and personality, did you ever think that Lee might be mentally unstable or ill?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I was only 21 when he died. I was not mature enough to recognize the symptoms, but I don't think anybody in their right mind can commit crimes like that. Right now I do assume the person was ill.
Mr. FORD - Did you ever seek any help for Lee?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, at that time I was not mature enough to recognize the symptoms so I was not aware of it.
Mr. FORD - You recognized it, but you did not seek help for him?
Mrs. PORTER - No, I did not recognize the state of his mind then. It never occurred to me then that Lee was sick. I did not come to thatconclusion then in my life.
Mr. FORD - But his actions and his personality were sort of strange?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. FORD - Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. FITHIAN
Mr. FITHIAN - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, when you destroyed the photographs, did it not occur to you that there would be negatives around somewhere and that you ought to look for those and destroy them too?
Mrs. PORTER - No, it did not occur to me.
Mr. FITHIAN - Has it occurred to you since as to what happened to the negatives, since clearly we have had three different pictures there would have to be three different negatives somewhere? The Warren Commission reports say only one, and we will deal with that at another time, but do you know what happened to any of the negatives?
Mrs. PORTER - I assume that the government has them.
Mr. FITHIAN - I am sorry?
Mrs. PORTER - When they confiscate Lee's belongings, I assume they got the negatives from there.
Mr. FITHIAN - You did not burn the negatives?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember, recall, doing that.
Mr. FITHIAN - Let me turn quickly to another set of questions. Did Lee have any Cuban friends in New Orleans?
Mrs. PORTER - Not that I know of.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did he ever mention any Cubans that he might have had contact with?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did he ever talk to you about his political activities?
Mrs. PORTER - Excuse me. May I correct myself?. When he was arrested for this Fair Play for Cuba, he did mention that he met some Cubans on the street or that is the one who gave him the pamphlets, but it was no specific names mentioned.
Mr. FITHIAN - So he did talk to you about passing out pamphlets?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, he told me about that.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did he talk to you about speaking about Cuba on the radio? That would be a little unusual that a person would speak on the radio.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, he told me.
Mr. FITHIAN - He mentioned that to you?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did he mention the formation of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, until I discovered that he was the only one who---
Mr. FITHIAN - Did he mention lectures on Cuba and Communism to a group of Jesuit priests?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did he ever mention the CIA?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FITHIAN - At any time?
Mrs. PORTER - Not that I recall.
Mr. FITHIAN - Now, turning to the time that you lived in the Dallas area. Did he have any Cuban or Spanish-speaking contacts in Dallas?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't think so. I don't know any of them.
Mr. FITHIAN - Do you recall any of Lee's friends in Dallas or in New Orleans ever referring to him as Leon rather than Lee?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. FITHIAN - The other area I wanted to get some additional information on is the circumstances under which you met George DeMohrenschildt. Mr. DeMohrenschildt is a very aristocratic, wealthy individual, educated, rather from a different walk of life from Lee. Can you give us any indication as to how the two gravitated together, they are so very, very different?
Mrs. PORTER - No, because Lee was exposed to lots of Russian people, you know, because of me being Russian background that is the friends we had, and apparently from all of them he liked George DeMohrenschildt the best.
Mr. FITHIAN - Can you tell me your own recollection of the first time you met Mr. DeMohrenschildt?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember how we have been introduced, by whom or where. I think the way I remember right now, I think it was somebody's luncheon and there were lots of people present and they were one of them.
Mr. FITHIAN - Did you grow to know George DeMohrenschildt well? Of all Lee's friends, did you know him better than the rest?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I like him very well. I cannot describe his character maybe very completely. But well enough to like him very much.
Mr. FITHIAN - Were there many, many contacts between Mr. DeMohrenschildt and Lee and you?
Mrs. PORTER - They visited us occasionally. He stopped by just to say hello for a few minutes if he is in the area.
Mr. FITHIAN - By happenstance, did he ever stop by when Lee was not there?
Mrs. PORTER - By our house? He did stop once, yes.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired.
Mr. FITHIAN - Could I have just one additional minute, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman STOKES - Without objection the gentleman is recognized.
Mr. FITHIAN - Do you recall Mr. DeMohrenschildt taking you anywhere apart from the time that he would have taken you and Lee together somewhere?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember that. When I said that he came by once by himself, it was somebody else with him, some gentle-man. He said he had been in the area and he wanted me to meet so and so, it was some businessman or business associate of his but ! don't know who it was. I do not recall the gentleman's name or the face. We talked for 2 or 3 or 5 minutes. He didn't even stay for coffee, Then he left and that was it.
Mr. FITHIAN - Do you remember him taking you to visit the Bruton's, Admiral Bruton and his family?
Mrs. PORTER - No. I read it somewhere about that, but I don't recall the incident at all.
Chairman STOKES - The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Edgar.
Mr. EDGAR - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Porter, let me draw your attention to the pictures one last time. You will see that there are three separate pictures up there. Did you take those pictures?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I did. I don't know how many, two or three.
Mr. EDGAR - I had an occasion to ride in the back alley where, those pictures were taken and look at that area. It is a little bit changed, but to see that area and to get a visual siting of what the, backdrop is, if you would look at that picture I would just like to ask you a question: Why would someone like yourself who does not, like rifles, guns, around the house, agree to take a picture of Lee in that setting? Two of the pictures are clearly with a rifle in his hand and one of the pictures is with his rifle and his handgun. Why did you take that picture?
Mrs. PORTER - I just had been forced to. Instead of being physically abused by Lee, I just did it what he asked me to or told me to.
Mr. EDGAR - Why did he want you to take that particular pose?
Mrs. PORTER - Pardon me?
Mr. EDGAR - Why did he want you to take that particular pose, that particular setting, with the rifle and the documents in his hand?
Mrs. PORTER - His main explanation was that this newspaper that he has in his hand, that that is why he wanted to take the picture, for this newspaper or something like that.
Mr. EDGAR - Was he going to send a copy of this picture to the newspaper and hope that it got printed?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know, but he said something to do with the newspapers.
Mr. EDGAR - Was he going to put this picture on a brochure for someof his activities?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't recall why, more than what I said.
Mr. EDGAR - If you look at the picture carefully, it is taken in the day time, in full bright sunlight. Was he at all nervous that a neighbor would come out of his house or somebody would come down through the alleyway?
Mrs. PORTER - I do believe it was a kind of weekend, a Saturday or Sunday, and the neighbors were gone.
Mr. EDGAR - This picture was taken in Dallas?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. EDGAR - And it was taken when?
Mrs. PORTER - I think shortly after noon or noon. It was not early in the morning and not very late at night. It was during the day time.
Mr. EDGAR - What time of year was it taken?
Mrs. PORTER - In the springtime I remember. It was warm at the time.
Mr. EDGAR - We have the one that had a notation on the back which is dated April. Now the picture would have had to be taken prior to that April in 1963 so that would have had to be January, February or March of 1963. Is that not correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, it could be in April.
Mr. EDGAR - Except as I understand it, it is the fifth day of April that is notated on the back.
Mrs. PORTER - I am sorry, I am not expert. I am not trying to prove something, but this print you get very quickly in Texas.
Mr. EDGAR - You can tell it is a spring picture because he has a short sleeve shirt on.
Mrs. PORTER - I am just telling you what I recall, that it was spring. What picture shows I don't know.
Mr. EDGAR - You said yesterday something that intrigued me. When we were trying to figure out who wrote the Russian inscription on the back, you said, well, it doesn't look like my handwriting. I think you said, "It sounds like me." Could you clarify that for me?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes. Well, I can be very sarcastic sometimes. I am known to have a sharp tongue when I get angry. So if I describe something, it will sound like, I mean that the tone of the statement could be like mine.
Mr. EDGAR - Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent for two additional minutes.
Chairman STOKES - Without objection the gentleman is recognized.
Mr. EDGAR - Continue, it sounds like you.

Mrs. PORTER - Sarcasm of the phrase would be.
Mr. EDGAR - Sarcastically you are saying, "hunter for fascist" or "hunter of fascist." Which is it, hunter of or for?
Mrs. PORTER - Of. I probably misinterpreted before the same phrase.
Mr. EDGAR - What is a fascist?
Mrs. PORTER - Fascist, well, I think it is the party in Germany. In my mind it is--has something to do with the war, aggressive people, military people.
Mr. EDGAR - Was it a joke? Was that sarcastic expression a joke?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know. It sounds like it.
Mr. EDGAR - Just one final series of questions very quickly. Mr. Fithian was asking you about your relationship with Mr. DeMohrenschildt and the difference between his life style and your life style. Did you see Mr. DeMohrenschildt after the assassination?
Mrs. PORTER - Not shortly after. I did see him I think on two occasions afterwards.
Mr. EDGAR - What were the purposes of those two occasions?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I think it was a Russian Easter party once and he was present. I think once I attended a Russian movie at the campus and lots of Russians were present there, too, and he was one of them.
Mr. EDGAR - In the Dallas area at the time of the assassination there were a number of clubs and organizations of Russian people, were there not?
Mrs. PORTER - No. No, it is a social gathering.
Mr. EDGAR - But there was a social group of people who sent out cards and said, come to a movie or come to a luncheon or come to a---
Mrs. PORTER - No, it was not organized that way.
Mr. EDGAR - How did you know that the Russian community was getting together to do a particular thing?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, occasionally they do this, you know, the church or something like that. I think maybe somebody called me and invited me to go.
Mr. EDGAR - Could you have met Mr. DeMohrenschildt at that kind of setting?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't think so. I think it was a dinner, a get together, or something like that.
Mr. EDGAR - Just finally on the two occasions that you met Mr. DeMohrenschildt after the assassination, did you have occasion to talk with him about Lee Harvey Oswald and about the assassination?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't recall. I don't think it was the right atmosphere or place to discuss it in detail. It was more like a polite hello, you know, hi, how are you, and things like that.
Mr. EDGAR - But he did not volunteer that he had a picture from Lee?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. EDGAR - He didn't share with you any information at that time?
Mrs. PORTER - No, sir.
Mr. EDGAR - Did he offer to help you out at all financially?
Mrs. PORTER - I think he did.
Mr. EDGAR - Did he give you any money.
Mrs. PORTER - I don't recall, but they were very generous about inviting us to their house and sometimes bring something over. They were helpful. I don't mean like you try to say that he gave me a big sum amount of money.
Mr. EDGAR - Not necessarily a big sum of money, but did he assist you after the assassination?
Mrs. PORTER - After the assassination, no.
Mr. EDGAR - But prior to the assassination he might have helped you out financially?
Mrs. PORTER - Maybe he buy box of candy or some toy for a child, that is the things I am talking about.
Mr. EDGAR - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman. STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. Mrs. Porter, this morning you told me that you and Lee did not have a telephone while you were staying in Russia; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES - Did you have access to a telephone at any time?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes. They have public phones and my aunt and uncle had a telephone at work. So if I wanted to call somebody, I could make a connection.
Chairman STOKES - Where was that phone?
Mrs. PORTER - They have public phones. My aunt and uncle had a telephone.
Chairman STOKES - Located near your apartment there?
Mrs. PORTER - She lived a few blocks away. Like two blocks.
Chairman STOKES - She had a telephone?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Chairman STOKES - I see. So whenever you or Lee needed a telephone, you could use hers?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir, and they had a public phone downstairs, too.
Chairman STOKES - NOW, I asked you about an incident at the train station involving a KGB agent this morning and you could not recall that.
Mrs. PORTER - No; I don't.
Chairman STOKES. In Priscilla Johnson MacMillen's book, "Marina and Lee", page 187, it says: The Oswalds spent their last night in Minsk at Pavel's. The next day, May 22 or 23, they boarded the train for Moscow. Russian fashion their closest friends, including Pavel and all the Zigers, came to the station to see them off. But even there they noticed that they were being watched by a man who was standing, half-hidden, behind a pillar. "Listen in if you like," Eleonora Ziger practically spat in his face. "We have no secrets here" Her sister, Anita, added: "I simply loathe people who eavesdrop." Marina kept glancing anxiously around the station looking for Ilya and Valya. Finally, she saw them standing way off by themselves in a corner. Their faces were forlorn and they looked as if they were fearful of being seen by the KGB. Marina hurried over to them. "Why didn't you join us?" "We didn't want to be in the way" Valya said. She turned to Alik: "Take care of Marina. She has nobody now but you." She was on the verge of tears. Having heard that, does that refresh your recollection of what you told Miss Johnson? 41-371 O - 79- 21 Vol 2
Mrs. PORTER - This is the fact that Miss Johnson did get from me many years ago. I do not remember right now the man and where he was standing. I remember where my aunt and uncle were standing, but that is correct. If it is in the book, it is correct, yes.
Chairman STOKES - I think I have just one more further question: In reply to Mr. Preyer's questioning of you this morning with regard to motivation for Lee doing this type of thing, you gave some indication that you could agree that it probably was done just to perhaps make himself a bigger man. But you did know by virtue of the General Walker experience that he was capable of killing for political reasons, did you not?
Mrs. PORTER - I still really did not ever consider it, you know, that that was really that political. It is a political figure, Mr. Walker was. He will be well known if he will be killed, I mean, he is known to the public. He gave me his reasons for shooting him as political. Maybe at this point it was somewhat. Maybe he tried to make Russian explanation to me, but still it was rational enough to make a statement that the man was sick.
Chairman STOKES - Let me just refer you to a couple of things: One, he said to you with reference to General Walker that he was worse than Hitler and he should be killed, had he not said that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, he made the comparison.
Chairman STOKES - And then let me just make reference to a statement that you gave us in the deposition we took from you on August 9. We asked you this question with reference to what happened when he came back to the house with you. The question was: What did he say when he returned? You said, well, he turned the radio on and he was very pale and he was listening to the news, changing from station to station. I asked him what it was all about. He said that he tried to shoot General Walker. I told him, how dare you take somebody's life. You should not do things like that. I mean, you have no right to do it. He said, "Well, if somebody shot Hitler at the right time, you would do justice to humanity. So since I don't know anything about the man, I should not talk about it." Is that what he said?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES - At the point he said, "So, since I don't know anything about the man, I should not talk about it," he was talking about you?
Mrs. PORTER - Of me not knowing anything, right.
Chairman STOKES - So from that statement to you, then, you then did know that he was capable of killing for political reasons; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, I still think the reasons, well, I am sorry, but anytime if a person is capable of killing somebody, he is not a stable-minded person whatever the reasons are. Maybe it is political excuse, I don't know. I still don't think it is just strictly political.
Chairman STOKES - Thank you,
Mrs. PORTER - Mrs. Porter, at the conclusion of the witness' testimony before our committee, that witness is entitled to take five minutes in order to in any way explain or comment in any way upon the testimony they have given our committee. You may amplify or expand upon it in any way that you so desire. On behalf of the committee, I would at this time extend to you 5 minutes for that purpose.
Mrs. PORTER - I just want to thank you for listening. I don't have any comments to add.
Chairman STOKES - Does counsel desire any time to make any statement?
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, I do not, but I would like to thank the committee and the staff for the courtesies extended to Mrs. Porter I would also like to thank the United States Marshal and the Capitol Police for their extremely professional handling of the circumstances surrounding her appearance here.
Chairman STOKES - We would like at this time also to thank Mr. Hamilton of the D.C. Bar Association for having provided counsel for Mrs. Porter while she was here. We thank both of you for appearing. At this time you are excused. All persons are requested to remain in their seats until Mrs. Porter has left the room.