Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

APPEARANCES:

JOHN HORNBECK, Senior Staff Counsel Select Committee on Assassinations U. S. House of Representatives Washington, D. C. 20515 DONALD PURDY, Staff Counsel Select Committee on Assassinations U. S. House Of Representatives Washington, D. C. 20515 SWORN TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE VICTOR MEYERS PROCEEDINGS Whereupon,

LAWRENCE VICTOR MEYERS was duly sworn and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION
BY MR. PURDY:
Q. Mr. Meyers, will you please state your full name for the record.
A. Lawrence Victor Meyers, M-e-y-e-r-s.
Q. Just prior to beginning this deposition, I have just explained a few of the minor details to make sure it is clear to you before we begin. I have just recently given you a copy of the rules of the committee and the resolutions setting up the committee; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Essentially, one of the main points of the deposition is that it is voluntary? Do you understand that?
A. I am aware of that.
Q. At any time you can refuse to answer questions. You can call a halt to the deposition, and that you can get advice from an attorney at any time. Do you understand those points?
A. I am aware of that.
Q. Finally, I want the record to show that you understand this is a deposition under oath and that the normal penalties for perjury apply to this testimony.
A. I know that.
Q. Would you please state your present address?
A. 6219 Bandera, B-a-n-d-e-r-a, Dallas 75225.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. Since 1964. Well, now, wait a minute.Do you mean how long have I lived at this address?
Q. Yes.
A. Oh, four years.
Q. And where did you live prior to that?
A. 6026 Averill Way, Dallas.The same Zip.
Q. And when did you move there?
A. I would that would be now some eight years ago. Prior to that I lived at 2800 Cathedral Way, also in Dallas.
Q. Was that your first residence in Dallas?
A. That was our first Dallas residence.
Q. When did you arrive in Dallas?
A. I know it was 1964. I am almost sure that the month was March. I think it was March of '64.
Q. Where did you move from?
A. Chicago.
Q. How long had you lived in Chicago before you moved here?
A. Well, including the suburbs, we lived in Chicago for about eight years.
Q. Eight years. What was your occupation in Chicago?
A. In Chicago, at the time I lived -- the Early part of my Chicago living I was with a company called Healthways out of Los Angeles, California.
Q. And then where did you work?
A. Then I left them and went with -- I became a manufacturer's representative. That lasted for a couple of years. Then I went to work for Ero, E-r-o, Manufacturing Company in Chicago.
Q. What occupations did you have when you lived in New York?
A. Nothing, really. I left New York when I was just a kid. I worked as a soda fountain dispenser for a while. I left there when I was probably 17 years. old, 17 or 18.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Well, no place specifically. I just traveled around the country to various places.
Q. Until you settled in Chicago?
A. No. I settled in San Diego. In 1936, I got to San Diego. I went to work as -- Do you want the history there.
Q. Yes, sir, just some of the more general things.
A. All right. I went to work as a shoe clerk in San Diego for a company called Edison Brothers Shoe Company. I met my wife. We were married in 1936. We lived in San Diego for -- this could vary a year or two. I can't be positive. We lived there until about 1939, I guess, and then we moved to Los Angeles. We lived on a street called Virginia Avenue, and then we came back to San Diego and I went to work for Nabisco, National Biscuit Company, and then --
Q. What year was that?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. What year was that?
A. Oh, I would guess that I was with Nabisco, I know when World War II had begun. No, World War II begun when we lived on Virginia Avenue. I guess I was back in San Diego about 1940, and I stayed there for a couple or three years with Nabisco, National Biscuit Company. Then -- Now this is San Diego. Then we bought a house in Burbank, which you may be aware is a suburb of Los Angeles, and we lived there until 1952.
A.nd then I went to Chicago. I was with Healthways at that time. I went to Chicago to set up the thing for that area, and then Mrs. Meyers and our two older children joined me there about a month or two after that.
Q. You talked about Ero Manufacturing Company in Chicago. What type of business did this company do?
A. Well, their basic business at the time I went to work for them was manufacturing automobile seat covers, and Mr. Howard Leopold was the Chairman of the Board of the directors of the company, and he was aware, he become aware, that the seat cover business, which I don't suppose either of you two would be knowledgeable about, was on the downgrade. People were no longer buying seat covers. You know, in those days you went out and bought a new car and the first thing you did was put Seat covers on it. So he wanted to add items to the company's manufacturing process that would fit in to their type of operation, which was a sewing operation, and my background had been the sporting goods business for these many years with Healthways, particularly.
A.nd he was told about me and he called me in for an interview and everything went all right, obviously, and we set up a division of Ero Manufacturing Company where we produced life jackets, boat cushions, sleeping bags, insulated underwear, anything that had to do with the sewing operation, and I was given charge of that setup.
Q. How long were you employed by Ero?
A. Well, that could vary a few months or a year. I am not sure, but I would say from -- Oh, Lord. I know I was with them on my 50th birthday, which would have been 1960. I would say from about 1958, probably, to early 1963 or late '63.
Q. Did you have basically the same duties during that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Or did you responsibilities change?
A. No. I traveled around the country selling and also setting up sales forces. Yes, it would be late 1963 because I had to come to McKinney. I am beginning to put things together. It's been a lot of years ago.
Q. What were the chief accounts that Ero had that you would have worked with?
A. That I would have worked with?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, Sears, Roebuck, of course. In this area the biggest and probably the main account around here was a company called Gibson, Gibson Discount Centers.
Q. Did you have a particular geographic region you were responsible for?
A. No. I was sales manager. I had the United States.
A.s a matter of fact, I had set up a number of local reps in various areas to cover those areas.
Q. Did you set up a local rep for the Dallas area?
A. We didn't have one at that time. No. I came here.
Q. Did you have a local rep for the Chicago area?
A. No. I also covered that. However, we had them in Detroit and we had them in California.
Q. You mentioned Sears and Gibson Discount as two of the major accounts. Which offices did you work with?
A. Well, Sears I worked with in Chicago. And Discount was Dallas. Literally a suburb of Dallas at that time called Seagoville.
Q. Did you have an ongoing relationship with Gibson Discount during those approximately five or six years you were with Ero?
A. Yes. As a matter of fact, Gibson Discount Center was the main reason for my moving to Dallas.
Q. What was the policy of Ero regarding your long-distance phone calls and the billing of them on business expenses?
A. Well, I charged all of my expenses. I either paid for them and the company reimbursed me or I charged them directly to Ero, depending on how we had set that up.
A.s far as long-distance phone calls are concerned, Ero had a WATS line which I used 99 percent of the time.
Q. How about when you were traveling?
A. I called on the WATS. I called collect, and whoever I called for was not in at that time, obviously would return the call, call me back later on the WATS line.
Q. How about if you were making long-distance calls to someplace other than your headquarters when you were on the road? Did you have a telephone credit card you would use?
A. I would guess. Now, here I am guessing because I can't tell you exactly. If I am making a long-distance phone call other than to Ero, I could very likely have put it on a telephone company credit card.
Q. You had one?
A. Oh, yes. I have had one for years. Here again, it is a guess.
Q. Was that your personal card or was that a business card?
A. No. It was my personal card.
Q. So then you would submit a bill to the business?
A. Right.
Q. What, every month?
A. Ero would reimburse me periodically, depending on when I made a trip.
Q. Did you have at any time more than one telephone credit card?
A. No.
Q. You just had one copy of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did anyone else have access to it?
A. My wife would have had one.
Q. She had a copy of it?
A. She had a copy of it or she had, you know, my credit card number written down, just as she does today.
Q. Did any of your local sales reps ever use your credit card number?
A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. You never had a company telephone credit card?
A. No. Although I did have company travel cards.
Q. To pay for --
A. You know, plane trips and train and so on.
Q. When you were on the road did you have occasion to make a lot of long-distance phone calls to places other than to your headquarters?
A. Well, the only long-distance calls I would normally make -- I can't remember every long-distance call I made then, obviously, but the only calls that I would make to other than my home or to one of my children or the company would have been to whoever I wanted to set up my next appointment with. Then I would call them iong-distance to be sure that they would be available when I wanted to get there, you know.
Q. When you made these calls you would put them on your credit card?
A. I would invariably, if I remember, put them on my credit card, sure.
Q. In the early 1960's, how often did you travel to Dallas or the Dallas area on business?
A. Well, this again is a guess. I would come here frequently. Well, what I would call frequently. I came to Dallas a number of times. Now, I would come to Dallas for two reasons. Not necessarily both at the same time. One would be, of course, to see Gibson.
Q. Was there a particular person you usually saw?
A. Oh, I would usually work with Herb Gibson who was the Chairman of the Board of directors, or their sporting goods -- I don't even know if Lee Roy Kelso was with them at that time. It would be with Herb Gibson primarily.
Q. Is he still alive now?
A. Yes. He doesn't like me very much, but he is still alive.
Q. The other reason I would come to the Dallas area would be the fact that Ero had built a plant in McKinney, Texas, and that -- I beg your pardon?
A. Go ahead. That plant was primarily set up to manufacture the goods for me. It may some seat covers, but basically the production of the plant was life jackets, ski belts and sleeping bags.
Q. What was the purpose for your actually visiting the plant itself?
A. Well, it would have to do with a number of things. Production capability. You know, what I still had to sell, what we could still accept orders for deliveries. That was it. Of course, the plant manager was a friend of mine, too.
Q. What is his name?
A. Sherwood Smith.
Q. He was the person you would have dealt with the most on these trips?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Was he the person you would have dealt with most on these trips?
A. Well, I would have seen Sherwood on any trip I made to the Dallas area, assuming he was in town at that time.
Q. Is he still around?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Is he still alive, still around?
A. NO. He lives in -- oh, it is a suburb of Chattanooga. Ocean Springs or something of that type. He is running a plant in Chattanooga. I have no idea whose plant it is. You see, Sherwood and I knew each other in Chicago. He worked for Ero in the Chicago office for the Chicago Main Building where I also had my headquarters at that time. So we knew each other there
A.nd when Ero built the plant in McKinney he was transferred to McKinney, Texas.
Q. When you came to Dallas how long would you typically stay?
A. As a rule, two or three days.
Q. Where would you stay?
A. A number of places. If I was going to work with Sherwood only I would stay at the motel in McKinney, which was called -- oh, golly -- Woods Inn or something like that, Woods Motel. Other than that I stayed at the Cabana. At that time it was the Cabana. It is no longer called the Cabana.
A.nd -- oh, golly, I can't remember. I must have stayed at some other motels in Dallas.
Q. You said when you came you would stay approximately two or three days.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How often would you come to Dallas?
A. This again is a guess. I am estimating. I would say I would come to Dallas probably every couple of months, two and a half or three months. Something like that.
Q. Would you normally come to Dallas alone or with other people?
A. Most Of the time alone. 99 percent of the time alone.
Q. And what would generally account for the other one percent?
A. Company. I came to Dallas one time with a girl, and another time with a fellow named Harvey Lederman, who was Ero's -- oh, what the hell was his job with Ero. I really couldn't tell you what his exact job was, but he was, in a sense, one of the executives of the company.
Q. When was that trip, do you remember?
A. That was also in '63.
Q. Do you remember the month?
A. No, I couldn't tell you the month.
Q. Do you remember the season of the year?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Do you remember the season of the year?
A. It would be a sheer guess. I have no memory of that. I know he was with his wife and father.
Q. Was the purpose of that trip to go to McKinney or to go to--
A. To McKinney. We did go to McKinney. Obviously, we went to McKinney. We also went to Monroe, Louisiana to visit an account that I did a lot of business with there, which was actually a Gibson franchise operation out of Monroe, Louisiana. They were called Gibson Discount Stores, but they were owned by a company called Howard Brothers who have since ceased, you know. They kicked out the franchise. They are now running their own stores, Howard Brothers Stores in Monroe. I know Harvey and I drove there. He went around with me to visit customers.
Q. Who was your personal contact in Monroe, Louisiana for that local Gibson franchise?
A. You know, my mind is blank on that. I haven't the vaguest idea. It will come to me, I am sure, sooner or later, but at this moment I can't think of it. I would have to remember the sporting goods buyer at that time. I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
Q. On your trips to the Dallas area were there any particular clubs that were favorites that you frequented?
A. The only club I ever went to in Dallas was the Carousel, the one that Jack Ruby owned, from the standpoint of going to a club, you know. I would stop in at the lounge at the Cabana and have a drink.
Q. Were there any particular restaurants that were favorites of yours?
A. No, no special restaurant.
Q. Did you normally try to eat out or did you normally eat at the hotel where you were staying?
A. I would rarely eat at the hotels. I would invariably eat out.
Q. Were there certain individuals that you would look up when you were in town? You were apparently here very often.
A. Jack Ruby. I would always make it a point to say hello to him.
Q. Were there any business or personal associates of yours that you--
A. Other than Jack Ruby?
Q. Yes.
A. That I would socialize with?
Q. That you would spend any time with at all other than actually direct business meetings?
A. (Shakes head.)
Q. Where there any other business associates of yours that you haven't mentioned to us that you can remember?
A. Not that I can think of.
Q. Were there any other particular companies that you had dealings with in Dallas?
A. Companies that I did business with? There must have been some others. Oshmans out of Houston.
Q. Could you spell that?
A. O-s-h-m-a-n-s, and I would call on stores like Sanger-Harris, Cullum & Boren, which were major sporting goods operations.
Q. But you didn't have, didn't develop any friendships with any--
A. No personal contacts with any of these people, other than the man who owned Oshmans, who has long since been dead, Jake Oshman.
Q. Did he know Jack Ruby?
A. No. I have no idea how he could have possibly have known him.
Q. Did you come to know during this period any members of the Dallas Police Department?
A. None.
Q. Any public officials of any kind?
A. NO.
Q. Any other law enforcement-type people?
A. No. Not at that time.
Q. Did you know George Senator?
A. I know who you are talking about. I am almost certain that I met him one time at the club when he was up there visiting Ruby.
Q. You don't remember any of the details?
A. I haven't had any contacts with George Senator.
Q. Just to meet him?
A. He was at the club. I have a vague recollection of having met him there. If this is so, and I think it is, we just said hello and how are you?
Q. What did you typically do for entertainment on your trips to Dallas?
A. You are going way back there. Really very little.
Q. I would have dinner with Sherwood Smith at his home, spend time there with him and his wife and kids, throwing baseballs around, play golf, if I had my clubs with me. This was when I would come here alone. That's it. Maybe go to a movie.
Q. Did you have any particular other cities that you visited fairly frequently?
A. Oh, there were a lot of cities that I visited frequently. Detroit, Cleveland, New York. Most of the major cities in the United States. St. Louis, Kansas City. I did a lot of business in Kansas City. Atlanta, Los Angeles, I think mentioned earlier. Minneapolis, Omaha. Many, many major cities in the country. That was my job.
Q. Did you ever meet Earl Ruby in Detroit or anyone else?
A. (Shakes head) Now, that's Jack's brother?
Q. Right.
A. I never met him. I never knew anything about him until after this thing happened.
Q. You didn't have occasion to mention to Jack that you traveled around a lot, and he mentioned his brother Earl?
A. Oh, I'm sure I mentioned that to him. He knew I traveled, but he never mentioned his brother. I have no recollection of it.
Q. Did he mention anyone else in his family?
A. I knew his sister, the one here.
Q. The one in Dallas?
A. Yes.
Q. How often did you go to Las Vegas on business?
A. Maybe once a year. Maybe twice. Not frequently at all. Now, I went to Las Vegas far more often when we lived in California.
Q. What was the particular account or clients that you had in Las Vegas?
A. I never went to Las Vegas on business specifically from California. Q Did you have any business interests of any kind in Las Vegas?
A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.
Q. Did you have any business interest of any kind in Las Vegas at any time?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember Joyce McDonald?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Who went by the name of Joy Dale?
A. Are you talking about the girl I brought to Dallas with me?
Q. No.
A. I just don't remember her name.
Q. No. I am talking about someone that worked for Jack Ruby.
A. The name doesn't ring a bell at all. One of the strippers, no doubt?
Q. She went with you to the Texas State Fair one evening.
A. Oh, now you bring it up. Yes. I know who you are talking about. When you mentioned the State Fair, I remember that. She was working with a group of people at the Texas State Fair. They were doing a performance of some kind. I don't even remember what it was. Sort of a play.
A.re you with me?
Q. Yes.
A. And I think -- now, hero again I am conjecturing, but I think Jack asked me to look her up and say hello to her. Otherwise I wouldn't cold go up and talk to her. But I did, and I don't know what the hell went on but one word led to another. Then she told me that this particular group she was with needed some money to change the production or to get over something that they had to get over, some hump or something, and I gave her a check. I asked Ruby if I should and he said sure.
Q. Was he present at the time when she asked you for the money?
A. No. No. He said if I felt like it to go ahead and do it. My intentions, of course, were strictly ulterior at time as far as she was concerned. Let's face it, I was just trying to make points. As I said before, I was much younger then. I gave her a check, and I think it was either three or $400.00. I can't remember now,and she asked me where to cash it. I said, "Well, hell, have you got a checking account?" She said, "No." I said,"Well, give it to Jack. He will cash it. He knows my check is good," which I think she did, and that's all I know about that.
Q. You say you asked Jack whether you should give her the check. So she asked for the check, and Jack wasn't with you at the time?
A. That's right.
Q. So did you call Jack or did you ask him personally whether you should give her the check?
A. I asked him personally. I very likely saw him at the club that evening or the next night or whatever. You see, I never saw Jack Ruby -- let me make two things clear here to you. The only times, twice, that I have any recollection of having seen Jack Ruby outside of his nightclub or outside of the Carousel, other than to leave the Carousel with him when he closed it to get, you know, a cup of coffee or something. He was going home and I was going where I was staying, which was once when he came by and we had a sporting goods show. That was when we first met. He stopped to -- we also made barbells. He was interested in physical culture.
Q. What year was this, do you remember?
A. Oh, again, I am guessing. I would say probably '61 or maybe early '62, something like that. We discussed barbells. At least we started to discuss that. One word led to another. I was from Chicago and so was he. Blah, blah, so and so. The only other time I saw Jack Ruby outside of his club was when he had dinner with me that Saturday night at the Cabana.
Q. You are talking about the Saturday night after the assassination?
A. Yes. We did leave his club, oh, I don't know. Two or three times when he would close it up. We would, as a rule, walk around the corner. I am trying to remember the name of the restaurant, a little coffee shop directly behind the -- well, adjacent to the Adolphus Hotel on Elm Street.
Q. Well, I am going to want to pursue the questions of those meetings around the time of the assassination in a few minutes. Regarding some of your visits to Las Vegas, maybe some persons who have been previously associated with Dallas you might have met them in either place. Did you ever meet or did you ever know of Mr. Benny Binyon?
A. NO. I know who you are talking about?
Q. How did you know who he is?
A. Well, because he was, and I guess still is an ex-Texan who was well-known in the gambling fraternity.
Q. Did you know anyone that knew him well?
A. Not that I can think of offhand.
Q. But you never met with him?
A. I wouldn't know him if he walked in here.
Q. Did you ever meet Louis McWillie?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever know of him?
A. No. That name doesn't ring a bell at all.
Q. Did Jack Ruby ever mention knowing a Louis McWillie?
A. Not to my knowledge. Not to my memory.
Q. Did you ever meet Tony Zoppi?
A. I never met him. I saw him.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. You see, here again it becomes confusing. That name I would associate with Dallas after the assassination. You see, he lived in the Dallas area at that time. He was in Dallas, if my memory is correct, shortly after I got here. He was involved with show business one way or another. Producing shows or setting up shows. You see, I don't know the man. I have never talked to him.
Q. You never met him in Dallas or Las Vegas?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever met R.D. Matthews?
A. NO.
Q. Russell D. Matthews who used to work in Dallas, and currently works in Las Vegas?
A. NO. Doesn't ring any bells at all.
Q. You mentioned you met Jack about 1960 or 1961. What makes you think it was about that time?
A. Well, it had to be before the assassination.
Q. Do you remember talking to the FBI in December of 1963 about Jack Ruby?
A. I am sure I did.
Q. In that report you mentioned that you had met Jack Ruby approximately five years earlier than the assassination.
A. Well, then, my memory has gone real bad because I don't think I would have know Jack five years prior to the assassination.
Q. You have said you had fairly frequent contacts with Dallas between 1958 and '63. 1958 would make it about five years before the assassination.
A. Right.
Q. Is there something that helps you make the determination that you had met Jack Ruby in 1961 rather than in 1958?
A. No. I am just trying to remember how long I would have known Ruby, and to the best of my memory now it would have to be some two to three years before the assassination.
Q. Did you know when he owned any club other than the Carousel Club?
A. If he did, at any time I knew him, I didn't know anything about it. The only club I ever saw him at was the Carousel.
Q. Did he ever own some other club at a time when you knew him?
A. You see here, I have to separate what I knew and I have read since. I know that he owned a club or he started a club that he gave to his sister. Now, whether it was before, I just don't remember.
Q. Did you ever go to the Vegas Club?
A. Do you mean in Dallas?
Q. Yes.
A. I wouldn't know where it is today. I have never heard of it.
Q. Did you ever know Jack Ruby to go out of town, to leave Dallas?
A. No, which he could very well have done but he never said anything to me. I mean at a time when I knew, when I talked to him, he had never said -- I have no recollection of him having told me he was going out of town or going on a trip or whatever.
Q. Nor did he mention that he had recently been out of a town on a trip?
A. If he did, I just don't remember it.
Q. You don't have any specific recollection of him having gone to Cuba?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been to Cuba?
A. Oh, my. In, probably, 1934. 1933, something like that.
Q. But not since then?
A. No. That was when Cuba was wide open. It was a different then.
A.s a matter of fact, a number of my friends went to Cuba at that time from Miami.
Q. Back in the 1930's?
A. Back in the 1930's. That was before I met my wife. It would to be before 1936.
Q. Did you have any friends who went to Cuba between, say, around 1958 to 1960?
A. (Shakes head.)
Q. No business associates or personal friends?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the gambling activities in Cuba in the late 1950's?
A. In Cuba?
Q. Yes.
A. Just what I saw when I went there on that one trip. Who was running it or what, I don't know.
Q. You say you left the Ero Manufacturing Company in late 1963. Where did you go to work next?
A. Farber Brothers.
Q. Why did you make the switch?
A. Well, Ero was on the downgrade. Business was going very bad. They were in sever financial problems, and I owed quite a bit of money to some people in the Chicago area that I could not repay through my Ero association, and so I told these people that I would repay them at so much per month, but that I was going to change jobs, which I did. I did. In other words, I changed jobs and I repaid them.
Q. What was the reason the Ero job wouldn't enable you to repay them?
A. Because the Ero thing was phasing out.
Q. Because, in other words, your salary potential or your earnings --
A. I was limited extremely. They had built two new factories that they didn't have to build. Well, let's put it another way. They built two new factories that became a drain on the company finances, and the production that I had put them in, in the sporting goods manufacturing, was becoming more and more competitive, so the profit picture had begun to become very limited.
Q. Was Farber a similar company to Ero?
A. To a degree. Farber was very similar. As a matter of fact, they also still are a seat cover manufacturing company, and they wanted to get into the same field. You know, life jackets and boat cushions, so on and so forth.
A.nd the reason -- you might as well get the rest of the thing while we are at it, because as we talk about it it comes back to me. Sherwood Smith left Ero, left the McKinney plant, and went to work for Farber.
Q. Approximately when?
A. Here again, I don't know. It would have to be a sheer guess.
Q. Was it a long time or a short time before you went with Farber?
A. It was a reasonably short time. Within a year. He went to work for Farber, and then Maurice Farber was locking or had need for somebody like me, and he told Maurice about me and we talked and one thing led to another and I went to work for him.
Q. What was your position with Farber?
A.Selling sporting goods.
Q. Did you have the responsibility for a certain geographic area?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the geographic area?
A. Well, basically this area. Basically the southwest, but he would also send me to certain areas where I thought I could open up some business.
Q. What were you major accounts in the Dallas area with Farber?
A. The same.
Q. Basically the same accounts?
A. Basically.
Q. Farber was a direct competitor of Ero?
A. Yes. You see, I had made Farber a direct competitor. The same business. Well, there was only one thing that we added to the line that I sold a lot of at that time, and those were -- would you know what I mean when I say coil spring cushions? Cushions that you sit on in a car. Kool Kushions. Farber manufactured that and Ero didn't, and we sold quite a few of those. So, there again I started working with certain automotive accounts that I did not work with in the Ero picture.
A.s a matter of fact, in most cases, it would have really been the same accounts but a different buyer. You see, I worked primarily with the major, as we say the majors, the chains, so I would sell the same account but I would literally, as I do today, I would work with two separate buyers and in some cases five different buyers, depending on who bought the particular category that I was selling at the time. You said earlier that you moved from Chicago to Dallas in approximately March of 1964.
A. Yes.
Q. What prompted that move?
A. The fact that I was spending more time traveling from the Chicago area to the Dallas area to do business. A greater part of my volume was coming out of the southwest, which at that time necessitated my coming down here frequently from Chicago, and the decision we made was it would be much wiser to live in this area. Farber Brothers is a Memphis, Tennessee company. Our original converstion was would it be wiser to move to Memphis. The more we talked about it it was decided that it would be much wiser to live in Dallas.
Q. Who do you work for now?
A. Myself. I am LVM Sales, Inc. Do you want the picture of what I do now?
Q. Generally.
A. All right. I am, I suppose you would say, 75 to 80 percent retired. I came to Dallas. I worked with Farber for a while. Then -- well, I might just as well tell you exactly how it was. I wanted more money because I was doing very well, and Maurice Farber made me a vice-president. I said, "What is this for?" He said, "It will open more doors for you." I said, "I would much more prefer to open the door at the bank." In other words, he wouldn't give me any more money but he did make me a vice-president. So then I says, "Well, why don't you let me add another line or two?" You see at that time I worked strictly for Farber. So he said, "All right. If you want to do it that way, we will change your financial setup. You will operate on a draw against a commission basis instead of a flat salary and expense account," which was fine, very satisfactory, so I took on some other lines and the other lines got so big and Farber's line became so unimportant that I gave up Farber altogether and wound up with lines that fitted predominantly in the men's clothing field. I should almost say probably to the men's world in the sports clothing field. Now, about -- I don't know -- roughly a year ago I gave up all of the other lines with the exception of one that I still keep and I will keep as long as I am physically and mentally capable of working
Q. What is that?
A. That's a company called Walls Industry. They are out of Cleburne, Texas. Now, here again, as long as we are on this subject -- I would just as soon not have to go to Washington to tell you all of this again -- I have a peculiar setup with Walls. I do not have a territory. I am listed in their records as a special accounts salesman. I only sell mass merchandise, and that could be any place in the United States. I have to go to Detroit tomorrow. This is for K-Mart. We were talking earlier about some possible clubs that you may have frequented when you were in Dallas in the early 60's. Have you ever been to the Colony Club?
A. I don't think so. I know where it know where it was. There were three clubs downtown in that area. There was the Colony, Carousel and another one that belonged to the brother of the fellow who had the Colony. I don't remember the name of it. It is highly possible I might have stopped in there and had a drink, and then again I may have not I have no recollection of spending any time there.
Q. Did you ever meet either of the Weinstein brothers?
A. I met one.
Q. Which one?
A. I think his name is Abe.
Q. What were the circumstances under which you met him?
A. Just casually.
Q. You just met him socially?
A. I would have to say casually. No set up appointment or anything. We just talked to each other someplace someday. I remember distinctly talking to him, but he was long out of the nightclub business. But other than that I have no recollection of having met either of them.
Q. You think you just him on one occasion?
A. I don't remember having seen him on more than one occasion. I could have. I live in Dallas and he lives here, too.
Q. Do you remember what you discussed with him?
A. I would almost have to say it would have to be the nutty Ruby thing, because I remember meeting him long after the assassination. I have no recollection of having met him prior to Kennedy's assassination.
Q. You mentioned a number of cities you have had business dealings in. Have you had any business dealings in New Orleans?
A. Yes. I still do business there with the Security Company, which at that time was a chain of sporting goods stores.
Q. Did you have those contacts with them in the early 1960' s?
A. Well, no. I have to remember. I would think so. I would think that I would call on Marvin Rossman with Ero. You see, to get back to the early 1960's, I have to associate it with Ero and it is highly possible I was in there and it is highly possible -- now, I did some business with Marvin Rossman, yes, when I was with Ero. It is coming back to me now. I know he used to buy the rowing machine we made, too. I tried to do business there with another chain operation called Schwegmann's, or something like that, but we couldn't do anything. He didn't need it or whatever. That's the only company I can remember in New Orleans having done business with.
Q. You said Marvin Rossman. Is that a person's name?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did he work for?
A. He owns Security, he and his brother Leonard.
Q. So he was the main person you dealt with?
A. Right.
Q. About how often did you travel to New Orleans in the early 1960's?
A. Oh, I would say maybe a maximum of twice a year.
Q. Did you have a specific reason to go there, or did you--
A. Just to see them, plus the fact that I enjoyed New Orleans. It is a lovely city.
Q. Did you travel to New Orleans in 1963?
A. I don't remember. I really can't. I very likely was there in 1963. I can't pinpoint it. I would have to say that it is highly possible that I was there, but I cannot tell you when.
Q. Were there any particular problems or successes with your business contact there that would have made you go more or less frequently in 1963?
A. No, because Marvin gave me a routine amount of business that was pretty basic each time I called on him, whether it was for the winter line, spring line, or spring and summer line, and we would visit for maybe an hour or two, maybe have a cup of coffee and that would be it.
Q. Did you visit New Orleans in November of 1963?
A. I wouldn't -- if my life depended on it I couldn't tell you.
Q. Well, thinking back from your visit to Dallas which was in like the third week of November, does that refresh your memory as to where you had been prior to that particular date?
A. No, because at that particular time I came to Dallas regularly from Chicago. You see, November would not have been a time for me to have called on New Orleans because it is much too early for spring goods and much too late for winter goods.
Q. You indicated earlier you came directly from Chicago. What trips had you taken to other cities prior to your departure from Chicago?
A. I wouldn't have the vaguest recollection.
Q. You didn't have a specific, route that you followed or anything?
A. No.
Q. Do you know a person called Elsa Hacker?
A. Do I know her or did I know her?
Q. Have you ever known her?
A. Very well.
Q. How did you know her?
A. Well, we had quite a thing going for a number of years.
Q. Did this include the period of the late 50's and early 60's?
A. I know the early 60's. Possibly the late 50's.
Q. Where was she living at this time?
A. At the time that I met her?
Q. At the time you met her and you knew her?
A. Chicago.
Q. She lived in Chicago during the period of the late 50's and early 60's?
A. (Nods head. )
Q. Did she travel to any other cities during that time?
A. Well, she made a trip with me one time to Florida.
Q. When was that?
A. Oh, Lord. I don't know. It could have been '59, '60 or '61. I haven't the vaguest idea.
Q. What did she do for a living?
A. She was a manicurist.
Q. Who did she work for?
A. A named barber shop in Chicago. I don't remember. Now, the last I heard of her she was back in Hamburg, Germany.
Q. Hamburg, Germany?
A. She is from there originally.
Q. Did you have any particular contact with her in 1963? With what frequency would you say you saw her?
A. Well, you see, here again, I don't remember. I do know -- you see, we had a pretty big thing going. We broke it off completely.
A.s a matter of fact, I sent her back to Germany. The last time I saw her was when I took her out to the airport in Chicago and put her on a plane for Germany.
Q. What year was that?
A. Here again I am guessing. Again I am guessing. I would have to say it was either in 1962 or '63. I just don't remember.
Q. Did she have access at any time to an office phone to make long-distance phone calls?
A. No. She was never in my office.
Q. Did you have occasion to call her long-distance from her office?
A. That is possible. Do you mean did I call her long-distance?
Q. From your office, right.
A. Well, I know I called her in Germany. I don't remember whether I called her from my office or from a payphone.
Q. Did you routinely call her when you were out on the road, call her long-distance back in Chicago?
A. I would call her on occasion, yes. When you say routinely, I didn't call her every other day, but I would call her.
Q. Did you know Earl Fox?
A. Earl Fox? That's my father-in-law who has been dead for a year and a half.
Q. Did you have any business deals with him?
A. No.
Q. Business dealings of any kind?
A. No way.
Q. Were you on good terms with him?
A. Very good.
Q. Where was he living in the early '60s?
A. San Diego. National City. He and his wife, my father-in-law and mother-in-law. Good Lord, how did that get involved in this thing? Do you mean I made some long-distance call there? That's highly possible because my wife would be there visiting.
Q. Your wife had a tendency to visit there frequently?
A. Every few months she would go out there to visit them. You are talking of Mr. and Mrs. Earl Fox, Sr., who were my wife's parents who lived in National City which is a suburb of San Diego. They both died within the last two years. My father-in-law was 89 and my mother-inlaw was 87. So we are going back now, what, 14 years, 15 years, so they were in their 70's and my wife was the only child left at that time. She had a brother that was killed, and she would make trips, periodic trips, to San Diego, to National City, to visit her parents, particularly in the summertime. She would take probably my youngest son David and they would go out there and spend a week or two.
Q. So if the long-distance phone records indicate phone calls they might possible have been you calling your wife out there?
A. Either me calling my wife or my wife calling me. If she knew where to find me she would call me on the credit card rather than running up their phone bill. They were both not ver affluent. If she called me from there she would invariably -- she would always call me on the credit card, or if I was calling there I would certainly call her on the credit card.
Q. Are you familiar with the American Guild of Variety Artists?
A. I know who you are talking about.
Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of the union?
A. No.
Q. Did you know anyone associated with that union?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you know of anyone who was affected by the decisions and policies of the union?
A. I am just trying to remember. It's seems to me I have a vague recollection of Jack Ruby having said something one time about something they had done that he didn't like.
Q. What it was I have no idea.
Q. Did you have the impression that they had done something to him personally?
A. It would have to be business-wise. It would almost have to be business-wise.
Q. Was it your impression they had done something to him personally or that it was just --
A. Well, they had done something to him business wise that hurt him personally.
Q. Do you remember what time period it was when he was hurt?
A. I couldn't remember that. I just don't remember. Q Was it close to the time of the assassination that he mentioned having the problems?
A.If I answered that yes or no it would be a sheer guess because I just don't remember. It couldn't have been very far away from it. I don't know. I can't tell you. It could have been two days before for all I know. It could have been a year before.
Q. Did he mention this series of events or event hurt him business-wise a lot?
A. Well, I do have a recollection that something that this Guild, a union, which it is, I suppose, had prevented him from doing something or wouldn't allow him to do something that he wanted to do It had to do with his business, and it hurt him personally, I guess, through his pocket.
Q. Did he have some problem with his inability to get rid of some union members who may have been working with his club?
A.Could have been. I just don't know. It could have been. I just don't remember.
Q. Could it have had something to do with curfew policies of the club?
A. I don ' t know.
Q. Could it have had something to do with which employees or which people he could hire at the club?
A. Again, you know, It could have been, anything to do with his business but I couldn't tell you what specific thing it was.
Q. Do you specifically remember him having to change any of his business policies because of this union?
A. No.
Q. For example, do you ever remember him having amateur nights at the club?
A. I know he had them. I was never there at one. I know he had them. They all had them.
Q. How did the amateur nights work, do you know.
A. Well, the best I know they would have usually two or three or four girls that would come out and do various forms of a strip.
Q.Come out from the audience?
A. No. Well, here again, you see, I don't remember whether he had them backstage or whether they walked up out of the audience. I don't know, but they would do a routine strip and then, I think, if I am not mistaken, the prizes would be awarded by the applause of the audience.
Q. Do you know Mike Shore in Los Angeles?
A. Mike Shore?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Do you know of him?
A. (Shakes head. ) No.
Q. Do you know Frank Goldstein?
A. Frank who?
Q. Frank Goldstein.
A. Frank Goldstein. No.
Q. Do you know Ernest Fast from Chicago.
A. No.
Q.Did you ever meet Leon Patrick?
A. No.
Q. In Chicago or anywhere else?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of him?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Erwin Weiner in Chicago?
A. No.
Q. Do you know of him? 857
A. (Shakes head.)
Q. Do you know Barney Baker?
A. (Shakes head.)
Q. Do you know of him?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever know Paul Roland Jones.
A. Paul who?
Q. Paul Roland Jones.
A. No.
Q. Did you know Dave Yaros?
A. NO.
Q. Did you know of him?
A. NO.
Q. Do you know James Henry Dolan?
A. NO.
Q. Do you know of Mr. Dolan?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Louis Kutner from Chicago?
A. NO.
Q. In your trips to New Orleans, or by any other means, do you mean Carlos Marcello?
A. No. I know who you are talking about, because I read about it, but I have never met him.
Q. Do you know Vincent Marcello?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever meet Jimmy Hoffa?
A.No.
Q.Did you ever meet any representatives of his?
A.(Shakes head.)
Q.Did you ever have any dealings with the Teamsters Union?
A.No way.
Q.Do you know Joe Civello?
A.No.
Q.Do you know of him?
A.No.
Q.Do you know Joe Campisi?
A.(Nods head.)
Q.How do you know Mr. Campisi?
A.He owns the Egyptian Restaurant in Dallas.
Q. When did you meet him?
A.Oh, Lord. When I first met Joe Campisi, I would venture to say it was -- you are speaking about meeting him rather than going to his restaurant and eating?
Q.Yes.
A. The first time I met Joe Campisi would probably have been maybe six or seven or eight years ago. I met him originally -- do you know what the B'nai B'rith is? We have a golf tournament every year, and he plays in it every year, and the first time I met him was at this particular B'nai B'rith Calcutta Golf Tournament.
A.s a matter of fact, I played with him the other day.
Q. Did you ever eat at the Egyptian Lounge in the early 1960's?
A.I could have. You see, I cannot -- there's no way I can tell you positively. I certainly could have.
Q.Well, if you did you didn't meet him at that time?
A.No. I didn't ever know him.
Q. In your visits to Dallas in the late '50s or early '60s, did you ever particupate in or have knowledge of any gambling activities of any kind?
A. Never.
Q. You never participated in any card games socially?
A. Well, card games. I have played gin rummy or something like that. But nothing you would call a card game.
Q. Did you ever acquire any knowledge of the existence of any bookmaking activities in Dallas in the early '60s?
A. None.
Q. You mentioned earlier that you met Jack Ruby around 1960 or 1961.
A. Well, you know, to preface that again, you told me about the FBI saying that I had known him for five years. I don't know whether I said it wrong or whether they misunderstood me or whatever. I have to go back in my memory, and all I can say is I had met Jack Ruby some two to three years prior to theassassination.
Q. What were the circumstances surrounding the time you met him? How did you meet him?
A. How did I meet him?
Q. Yes.
A. We were having a sporting goods show, exhibiting sporting goods.
Q. This was Ero?
A. Yes. Among the items exhibited was barbells. He was a physical culture proponent. As a matter of fact, Iknow he spent a lot of time at the YMCA using their goods, which he had told me about, and he stopped and we got to talking about this stuff. One word led to another. He was from Chicago and I lived in Chicago and he was Jewish and I was Jewish, and I was visiting in Dallas. I told him I would get him a set of barbells at my cost which was far less than what he would have had to pay had he bought them in a store, and he had a nightclub and he told me about his club and invited me up there. I was, to whatever degree, a rounder in those days, and so I went up and that was it. That's how we met.
Q. Do you remember specifically where it was you met? You mentioned at this demonstration.
A. I don't know where the heck we held it. I can't remember. Probably at the Baker Hotel or somewhere like that.
Q. You didn't meet him for the first time in the Carousel?
A. No.
Q. So the first time you saw him at the Carousel was after he had invited you to--
A. After he had told me what kind of place he had.
Q. Had you ever met him or heard of him in Chicago?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever subsequently see him in Chicago?
A. No. Never.
Q. Approximately how many times altogether did you see Jack Ruby?
A. Here again it's a sheer guess. I would probably say a dozen times.
Q. What would usually be the circumstances that would lead up to your seeing him or--
A. I would go in the Carousel. I would be bored in the evening with nothing to do and would walk up there and have a drink.
Q. Before you came to town on a business trip would you call ahead to see if he would be free to get together with you for dinner?
A. I never called Jack. I never called.
Q. Once you arrived in Dallas would you call over there?
A. I might have called him at the club when I got to Dallas. That I don't remember, but I could have done it. I never called him long-distance to tell him I was coming in.
Q. Was you typical contact with him at the Carousel Club?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you be joining him for dinner or just for drinks or --
A. No. We had dinner together just one time, to the best of my memory, and that was that Saturday night. Now, he didn't drink, but I would go up to the club and sit there and I would order a Coca-Cola or whatever. He would have one of the waitresses bring me a drink. If I remember right, in those days, you still had to bring your own bottle in Dallas, and obviously he was not allowed to sell drinks.
Q. Did you ever meet him at his apartment?
A. No. I have never been to his apartment.
Q. Did you ever see his apartment?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever visit the Sovereign Club?
A. No. I don't know a thing about it.
Q. I believe I asked you before and you said that you didn't know about the Vegas club; is that correct?
A. Never heard of it.
Q. Did Jack Ruby ever ask you for help other than to see if you could get him a good deal on the barbells?
A. NO.
Q. Did he ever ask you for help with any people in Chicago that you might know?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever, in discussing the problems he was having with this entertainment union, ask you for either help or suggestions as to what he should do?
A. I have no recollection of it. I couldn't imagine why he would do it. I couldn't visualize it.
Q. When you visited the Carousel Club was there an admission charge on those evenings?
A. If I remember right, I think there was, a couple of dollars or something.
Q. Did Jack Ruby let you in free usually?
A. Here again, I don't remember. I think if he knew it was me coming in, he Would let me in. If he wasn't around, I just paid the $2.00 or whatever and walked on in.
Q. Once he saw you there would he pay for you drinks?
A. NO. He would greet me. He would see that I got a drink, if I wanted it. I always paid for them.
Q. Did you ever ask him for any suggestions on people you should look up in town, any businessmen that maybe he knew that would help you to get contacts for making sales?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever discuss any of your local clients with him that he might be able to provide information to you on?
A. The only business I could possibly have discussed with Jack Ruby business-wise was to tell him that I did a hell of a lot of business here with Gibson, which meant nothing to him.
Q. Did you ever lend him money?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever ask you to lend him money?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever go into any, or discuss any mutual investments?
A. No.
Q. In your travels or when you would go back to Chicago did you ever have contact with him by phone or by mail?
A. No.
Q. You never had occasion to call him or to receive a call?
A. I could think of no earthly reason for me to call him on the telephone long-distance, and I certainly never wrote him any letters.
Q. Did you ever write him or receive any letters from him when he was in jail?
A. No.
Q. Did anyone ever contact you after Jack Ruby was arrested to see if you would make a contribution to a legal defense fund?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Following Jack Ruby's arrest did you ever try to contact him?
A. No. I thought about going to see him in jail one time, but I decided against it.
Q. Why did you decide against it?
A. I just figured there was no point in getting involved. There wasn't much I could do for him.
Q. He had never sent any messages directly to you asking for help?
A. I never heard from him.
Q. Other than that was there any particular reason that you didn't want to go see him?
A. No. I just didn't want to be involved.
Q. Which, if any, of your family members or relatives or associates did Jack Ruby ever have occasion to meet? 867
A. My brother.
Q. Is that Edward?
A. Yes. That poor kid. You heard the story of why he was here, I guess, or do you want me to repeat it to you?
Q. There are a few other things I wanted to develop before going into that.
A. Go ahead.
Q. What other members of you family or associates?
A. Just my brother and his wife.
Q. Did you ever meet Andy Armstrong who worked at the Carousel Club?
A. Who?
Q. Andy Armstrong.
A. No. At least it doesn't ring any bells.
Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet or did Jack Ruby ever discuss Ralph Paul with you?
A. No.
Q. How about Harry Hall?
A. Neither of those names mean anything to me.
Q. Did you ever meet in Dallas or subsequently in Los Angeles a man named Alex Gruber?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Gordon McLendon?
A. I know who you are talking about, but I have never met him.
Q. Do you know Alice Nichols?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Harry Olsen?
A. No.
Q. Did you know any of Jack Ruby's employees other than Joyce McDonald who we mentioned before?
A. Yes. I knew one who worked as a part-time showgirl for him and also worked as a waitress. If you ask me her name I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.
Q. Did you know her just from a casual--
A. No. As a matter of fact, we spent the night together one time.
Q. Do you remember what year that was in?
A. No. 1960-1961. I am guessing.
Q. Regarding Joyce McDonald, you, in some of your previous reports, indicated that you had seen her in October and November of 1963.
Q. Do you remember meeting her at any other time?
A. Well, if this was the time of the State Fair, that is the only time I ever met her.
Q. Did you ever meet Janet Conforto who went by the name of Jada?
A. Jada?
Q. I know who you are talking about remember the girl, but I never met her.
A.s a matter of fact, I saw Jack throw her down a flight of steps one time.
Q. Why did he do that?
A. Because she took off more than he had told her to take off.
Q. You mean in her performance?
A. Yes, in her performance.
Q. Do you remember when that was?
A. Gosh, I don't know. I couldn't tell you. I know he was very, very perturbed about it, and I say that mildly.
Q. Was his anger solely based on her performance or was there something else?
A. It was nothing to do with her performance other than the fact -- as far as I knew, was the fact that she could have cost him his license. They had some drive at that time as to how much nudity, how much you could take off, and she went a little beyond where she should have gone, and he let her know about it.
Q. Do you remember him complaining about the salary he had to pay her?
A. That I don't know.
Q. Did you ever know Karen Bennett who went by the name of Little Lynn?
A. I don't know. These kids all had such names. I couldn't think of them in a hundred years.
Q. Did you ever know Candy Barr?
A. Again, I know who you are talking about but I never met her. MR. PURDY: We will take about a five minute break. We will go off the record. (A short recess was taken. ) MR. PURDY: We have just finished the break. BY MR. PURDY:
Q. Mr. Meyers, I will ask you if you ever saw any police in the Carousel Club?
A. I don't know. I think so.
Q. Did Jack ever point them out to you?
A. Very likely. If they were there Jack would have pointed them out.
Q. Did he ever introduce any of them to you?
A. No.
Q. Did he mention to you whether he had any special relationship with any of them?
A. Here again, that is a difficult question to answer. He had never said anything to me about having special relationships with any policeman, but he did mention to me that he was friendly with the police force. NOW, how do you interpret that?
Q. Did he give any more details as to what he meant by friendly, whether he supported the police association or--
A. He would bring them hot pastrami sandwiches and coffee or whatever, things like that.
Q. Did he give them free drink cards?
A. This I don't know.
Q. Do you know if they had to pay for drinks or pay for admission?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Did you know from any other sources or have you subsequently learned, other than just reading press accounts, that Jack Ruby was known to a lot of Dallas policemen?
A. No.
Q. Did you get any indication from Jack Ruby as to whether or not he was providing any information to the police department or any other governmental agency?
A. No.
Q. You talked earlier that Jack had mentioned, just generally, having a problem with the entertainment union. Do you remember him saying or giving you any hint as to what he might try to do about it?
A. No. None at all.
Q. Do you remember him ever mentioning considering a lawsuit or injunction?
A. I just haven't the vaguest idea. I knew that he was unhappy about it, and again I have to jack up my memory. I am almost certain he said he was going to do something about it, but what he was going to do about it I haven't the vaguest idea.
Q. You said in one of your previous accounts that Jack Ruby was somewhat of a name-dropper.
A. Right.
Q. Do you remember any of the names or kinds of people he mentioned?
A. No. I never paid any attention to them, because most of the names he would drop had to do with people I would have no desire to know or no reason to know.
Q. What kinds of people would these be?
A. Mostly racket people.
Q. Racket people in Dallas or in some other city?
A. Around the country.
Q. What specific cities?
A. I couldn't remember a name or a city if my life depended on it.
Q. Do you think he mentioned Chicago or any people in Chicago since you were from there?
A. It is highly possible.
Q. Do you remember any of the names he suggested of people from Chicago?
A. No.
Q. Did you know any of the racket figures in Chicago?
A. That is, not that I knew who they were. I would not know.
Q. From your visits to the Carousel Club did you get any impression as to whether or not any of the strippers he employed were involved as prostitutes at all?
A. No.
Q. Did you gain any feeling from Jack Ruby as to whether he had strong feelings about customers soliciting the strippers?
A. He did have definitely very strong feeling about the girls soliciting the customers.
Q. What were those strong feelings?
A. That he was very much against it.
Q. Against them soliciting customers?
A. Very definitely.
Q. Did he mention anything about being against customers soliciting the strippers?
A. This I don't know. How are you going to stop a customer from soliciting a stripper? I do know for a very definite fact that it was a very positive no, no to him apropos any girls working in the place soliciting customers.
Q. Did he ever take action against a stripper for soliciting?
A. That I don't know. I never saw it.
Q. In 1963, you took a number of trips to Dallas. Do you remember when the first one was?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember, for example, a trip in February where you stayed at the Cabana?
A. Is that the first time it opened? Is that when it first opened?
Q. No. That was the first visit in 1963.
A. Well, the first time I stayed at the Cabana, this much I do know for a fact, the first time I stayed at the Cabana was either the day or the day after it opened. I couldn't tell you when that was. It could have been early 1963 or it could have been 1962. I don't know.
Q. How long did you stay there on that occasion?
A. I would have no occasion to stay there longer than two or three days.
Q. Were you alone on that visit?
A. I think so.
Q. Were you just engaging in business on that trip?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it the business that you have discussed previously with clients in Dallas?
A. It's highly possible. Let me clear one thing.
A.ny trip I made to Dallas in those days had to do only with business. My purpose in making the trip was business. I would be here for no other reason.
Q. In the October trip you mentioned the incident with Joyce McDonald, and you had said you had given her a check for maybe three or $400. I think the records indicate it was probably about $200.
A. Whatever it was. It was a couple of hundred dollars.
Q. Did you ever find out what happened to that money?
A. No. I am almost certain, and here again, I am not positive but I am reasonably sure that Jack Ruby cashed the check for her.
Q. Did you know that Jack Ruby took $100 of the money?
A. He very well could have. I don't know.
Q. You had said that you had an ulterior motive in regard to giving the money to the girl.
A. Sure.
Q. Was it your habit to be that extravagant with your money generally.
A. No. It was just an interesting episode.
Q. Do you remember anyone else that you met at the fairgrounds, people associated with--
A. She probably introduced me to one or two of the people involved in the group she was with, but I wouldn't know them. If I saw them now I wouldn't know them.
Q. Regarding the events of the assassination weekend, the record indicates that you arrived in Dallas on November 20, and previously you said you came directly from Chicago. Do you remember what time of day you came, morning, evening?
A. No idea. I know that I flew in.
Q. From Chicago directly?
A. I am almost positive I came direct from Chicago.
Q. Did you pursue any business activities the first day you were there?
A. I am sure I did. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been here.
Q. Well, you might have arrived late in the day and --
A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you a thing that I did that day. I couldn't tell you at all. I couldn't tell a thing that I did prior to Friday.
Q. The record indicates that you told the authorities that you pursued your normal business activities on November the 21st, the day before the assassination.
A. That very well could have been.
Q. What would those busines activities have been?
A. Calling on the accounts that I was doing business with. I would certainly have gone to McKinney, and I certainly have called on Gibson, and possibly one of the local department stores.
Q. McKinney was the factory outside of town?
A. Yes.
Q. To refresh your memory you apparently planned to go to McKinney on Sunday.
A. That's true.
Q. So would you likely have gone there also on Thursday?
A. Oh, sure, because Thursday would have been business. Sunday would have been personal.
Q. Personal, to show your relatives the--
A. Not my relatives. My relatives were not with my Sunday. They left Sunday. My purpose in going to McKinney was to stop -- are you talking about Sunday now?
Q. Yes.
A. My reason for going to McKinney Sunday was I had a golf date in Sherman, Texas, and I had told Smitty that I was going to stop, that I would stop at his house in McKinney early Sunday morning and have breakfast and then go on from there to Sherman, which I did.
Q. Did you go through Daily Plaza at all during that weekend?
A. Yes. I went through Daily Plaza on Friday, because I went to Fort Worth.
Q. In other words, you just drove through.
A. Yes.
Q. Was that before or after the assassination?
A. Well, let me sort of jump the gun on you, and I think I can give you a little clearer picture. On the Turnpike there are -- I guess it was Howard Johnson at that time, too. There is a Howard Johnson restaurant about halfway across right outside of Arlington, and I can't remember whether I stopped there on the way to Fort Worth or on the way back from Fort Worth, but as I walked into the Howard Johnson somebody said, "My God, did you hear what happened?" I said, "No. What happened?" He said, "The President has been shot.,
A.nd that's it.
Q. Where did you 90 after --
A. After I heard this?
Q. Yes.
A. I came right back to Dallas to the Cabana.
Q. What did you do the rest of Friday?
A. Got so sick of listening to all of the news and all of the descriptions of it on television.
Q. Did you talk with Jack Ruby or see him that day?
A. Well, there again, I don't remember. I could very well have, because we did have a dinner date for Sunday -- for Saturday night. I'm sorry. Now, whether I made the date with him Friday evening or whether I made it with him Saturday morning, I don't remember. I can't tell you. I just haven't the vaguest recollection.
Q. When you first came to Dallas on that trip you checked into the Ramada. Why did you switch to the Cabana?
A. Well, if I checked into the Ramada at the airport, I got out of there because I couldn't sleep. The Ramada Inn at that time was right at Love Field which then was the main Dallas airport.
Q. Well, you had been to Dallas quite a number of times before. Had you ever stayed at the Ramada before?
A. I don't know. Possibly, but I doubt it. Evidently I couldn't get in at the Cabana and I stayed there that night.
A.t least that's the only reason I could think of. Normally I would not stay at the Ramada at the airport. It's the noisiest place in the world or was the noisiest place in the world.
Q. So it is your sense that the first chance you got you switched to the Cabana?
A. They probably had no room for me that night, so I could have had a reservation at the Cabana for the following day and got here a day early.
Q. Where was your brother staying?
A. At the Adolphus.
Q. When did he arrive?
A. I don't know. You would have to get that information. The Adolphus can tell you because he was here attending a bottlers convention, whatever date that started. I just don't know.
Q. You had kind of made plans in advance to see him?
A. Well, I knew he would be here. We had talked to each other.
Q. Was there a particular day you planned to meet?
A. Probably Saturday, because I know he was leaving Sunday. As a matter of fact, he left Sunday. I drove him to the airport. He left Sunday, just almost coincidental with Kennedy's arrival.
Q. Were you by yourself or did you know anyone else at the Ramada?
A. I am sorry. Was I by myself or did I know anybody else?
Q. Yes. When you stayed at the Ramada was there anyone else with you or did you know anyone else that was staying there?
A. Well, I -- I didn't know anyone else. I don't remember whether that kid from Minneapolis with me or not to the Ramada, or whether she met me the next day at the Cabana. I can't remember.
Q. She came from Minneapolis and not --
A. She came from Chicago, but she was from Minneapolis.
Q. What is her name?
A. I couldn't tell you. I can't remember.
Q. Jean Aase, A-a-s-e?
A. I just can't remember.
Q. Or Jean West?
A. West. That rings a bell of some kind.
Q. Was that just a name she was going by or was that her real name?
A. I don' t know.
Q. Do you know if she was going by her real name?
A. I have no idea.
Q. When you switched to the Cabana who else did you know that staying at the Cabana at that time? Your brother and his wife were, obviously--
A. They were not at the Cabana. They were at the Adolphus.
Q. The Adolphus.
A. I didn't know anybody.
Q. You didn't know anyone at the Cabana?
A. Unless that was the trip that Harvey Lederman and his father came down. If I did, then he was there, too.
Q. Do you know Jim Braden or Eugene Hale Brading?
A. Jim Braden?
Q. Yes. He was probably staying at the Cabana at the same time.
A. He very well could have been.I don't know.
Q. Did you know Morgan Brown?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Have you ever known Morgan Brown?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Do you know William Cies, C-i-e-s?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Can you tell us the details of your contacts with Jack Ruby on November 21st, the day before the assassination?
A. I don't know. I have no memory of that. I may very well have been in the club that night. I may well have taken my brother to the club that night. I don't remember. It is possible I did. It is possible I didn't. He would remember that better than me. I don't know. I don't even know if I saw him that day. I could have, but I just don't remember. Does it refresh your recollection to know that you and Jean West went to the Carousel and Ruby sat down at the table with you?
A. It's possible.
Q. Do you remember how long that encounter lasted?
A. I don't know. I don't have the vaguest idea.
Q. The record indicates it was just about an hour or so.
A. I was just about to say maybe 45 minutes to an hour. It wouldn't have been very long.
Q. Just enough time to have a drink?
A. Just drink and yak, and watch maybe some girl strip or something.
Q. Did you go that night for any particular purpose or just --
A. No. Just to take Jean, if that was her name, to the club.
Q. Did you know anyone else at the club that night?
A. No.
Q. This was the night before the assassination. Was Ruby acting any different than he normally did?
A. Not a bit.
Q. You mentioned earlier that he was having some troubles with this stripper named Jada, and I guess he was a little bit anxious over it or upset with her. Was that the only problem that he seemed to be having?
A. As far as I know about it.
Q. Did Ruby indicate that he had any plans to do anything later that night or any other time that weekend?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Where did you go after you left the Carousel that night?
A. Again, I couldn't tell you. It has been too long ago to remember.
Q. The record indicates that you were supposed to meet your brother at the Cabana.
A. Probably did.
Q. The record also indicates that around 10:00 the night before the assassination was the time that you and Jean West saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel, and also indicates that you or he suggested that he come by the Cabana for a drink later that night.
A. It's highly possible.
Q. You have indicated previously that you believe Jack Ruby came about 11:45 or 12:00; in other words, maybe an hour and 45 minutes or two hours after you had seen him at the Carousel.
A. At the Cabana?
Q. Right.
A. It could very well be.
Q. Do you have any idea what you did between those two meetings?
A. No. Well, you see, based on what you are telling me now, because you are reading from the record I really don't remember. If we left the Cabana about If we left the Carousel about 10:00 or 10:30, as you have indicated -- am I right?
Q. Something like that.
A. The only thing we could have done would have been maybe stop someplace for a bite to eat and then go to the Cabana or just go directly to the Cabana and met my brother there.
Q. In other words, you don't really have a specific recollection of whether you and Jean West stopped somewhere else to eat and ---
A. I have absolutely no recollection of it at all.
Q. Apparently the record indicates that your brother joined you also. In other words, he hadn't been with you up until the time he came to the Cabana.
A. He was busy with various meetings.
Q. At the convention?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did this encounter at the Cabana last where Ruby joined you all? How long was he there?
A. Do you mean where Ruby joined us?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know. Certainly I know that my brother and his wife would not have stayed much longer, at the maximum, an hour. I have no idea how long Jack stayed. It couldn't have been very long.
Q. Did Jack try and interest your brother in getting into any kind of investment deal, one of these things he was trying to promote?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you remember him ever trying to promote anything other than his clubs?
A. He was not involved in anything else that I ever knew of.
Q. Did he mention to you the twist board idea'
A. Oh, yes. I saw him on that thing. We just talked and that was it.
Q. Did he suggest to your brother that he get involved with trying to promote it?
A. He could have. He certainly didn't me because I laughed when he showed it to me. I remember right now, since you bring it up, he showed it to me one time at the club, and he stood on it and twisted around, and he said due to the fact that I sold sporting goods this ought to be a good idea, a good item for me to sell to the stores.
Q. You didn't think so?
A. No. You know, I wasn't going to be rude and tell him, "Jack, throw it out of the window." But I did say I would think about it and talk to him about it at another time, or let's forget now. You know, a light brushoff.
Q. Why would Jack come to join you at the Cabana after he had just seen you for an hour--
A. Well, evidently I had invited him over for a drink.That's the only reason he would have been there.
Q. Did you have drinks at the Cabana or was it too late at night for them to serve drinks?
A. I don't remember. Let me brief you on one thing. I do not drink. I am not a drinker. I will take a drink. That's it. That's been pretty much that way all of my life. Now, whether we -- as a matter of fact, I am almost sure we had something to eat and coffee, because as I remember it the Cabana had a great big restaurant deal, and then they had a lounge area where they served drinks, and if I am right we sat in the restaurant. Here again, I am trying to remember but I can't tell you. I would not take an oath on it. I think that's what it was.
Q. You said earlier that you didn't talk with Jack Ruby on the day of the assassination, to the best of your recollection.
A. I have no memory of ever having talked to Jack Ruby other than at his club.
Q. Do you remember receiving a phone call from him the day after the assassination?
A. That would be on Saturday?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I have no memory of it. I could have. Maybe that's when we made a date to have dinner that night.
Q. Apparently that was, according to the record, one of the possible subjects that you would have discussed because there was some discussion about getting back in touch. Do you remember talking with Jack when he was very upset about the assassination?
A. Oh, yes. Very much. At dinner.
Q. What specifically did he say?
A. Well, of course, you have it in the original statement probably a little clearer than I can say it to you now, because I have to try to remember. We are going back some fifteen years. I remember that he was definitely very, very perturbed, very much, and he kept repeating, "Those poor people, those poor people. I am going to do something about it," or, "I should do something about it." Now, I also knew that he was very perturbed. He had told me about being very upset with his competitor, Weinstein, the Weinstein brothers, because they opened their club Saturday night and he didn't. He kept his closed.
A.nd, of course, he made some comments about what money-hungry so and so's they were to open on Saturday night, and when he kept repeating, "Those poor people, those poor people," blah, blah, so I assumed he was talking about these people, the Weinsteins and their personnel, and what comment I made about it is -- I don't even remember. I said,' "Oh, Jack, it will all wash itself out in the long run," or whatever. Now, whether he was talking about them or as what I translated it to later on after he killed Oswald, I began to believe that he was actually talking about were the Kennedy family, Jacqueline and the two kids. I am sure you are aware of all of this. I knew that he had -- I didn't know. I just assumed that he had adopted them. He visualized this was his family. Do you follow what I'm driving at? And that he had done, Oswald had done, a terrible thing in killing Kennedy and leaving a widow and two fatherless children, and evidently he had appointed himself an avenger for this and for the people of the United States, and for the Jews, like that crazy statement he made that he did it to prove that the Jews had guts, too. Or did you read that? He had mentioned that Jews going through what they have gone through for all these thousands of years and he had to prove that they have guts. That's off the record.
Q. When you had the conversation with Jack Ruby about the assassination, the first conversation was over the phone?
A. It could very well be.
Q. On the night of the 23rd.
A. That would be Saturday.
Q. Saturday night. And when you first -- I believe you stated your first impression on having the conversation before the shooting of Oswald was when Jack Ruby was talking about these poor people or those poor people he was talking about the Weinsteins in the sense that, you know, thinking that it was too bad that they had kept their clubs open, and I guess he felt some negative feelings toward them for doing so, and you didn't get the impression that he was speaking of Kennedy family. At least not during the telephone conversation. Was there anything he said during the telephone conversation which, looking back on anything else indicated to you that maybe he was thinking of killing Oswald?
A. No, because, you see, the reason I can answer that positively is because we practically went through the same thing Saturday evening at dinner. You know, what else was there to talk about that particular night. And I am sure that if he had said anything that would give me any indication of this kind I certainly would have remembered it. How do I say it? You have to visualize the fact that under no stretch of the imagination could I have ever, and to this day, tie Jack Ruby into some plot of this kind. Now, I may be jumping the gun on you, but to this very minute I still believe that it was just an impulse on his part. He didn't know he was going to shoot him until he did. I sincerely believe that. Now, could be wrong, but that's what I believe.
Q. How did he sound when he called you on the night of the 23rd?
A. Upset, I guess. Everybody was upset.
Q. Did he sound upset to the point of being irrational or was it the kind of upset you would expect you know, a lot of people --
A. I have to say an upset that I would expect from a man who just personally went through a tragedy, as we all did, or at least as I did.
Q. Was that telephone conversation the last time you talked to Jack Ruby?
A. Prior to the dinner that night.
Q. Well, the dinner was the night of the 21st, the night before the assassination.
A. Oh, no. No. We had the night after Kennedy was assassinated.
Q. On the 23rd?
A. Right. Kennedy was assassinated on the 23rd?
Q. The 22nd.
A. The 22nd. Jack and I had dinner on the 23rd. We also had a dinner date for the 24th, which was Sunday night but he had other plans, evidently. He didn't keep that one.
Q. When Ruby called you on the night of the 23rd, you said he was upset. You were at your hotel when he called?
A. That's the only place he could have got to me, so I would have had to have been at the hotel.
Q. I think the record indicates that you were practically ready for bed?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what time of night that would have been?
A. Well, it would have been late because I would say it would have to be late if I was ready to go to bed. When I say late, I'm talking about somewhere about 12: 00.
Q. You said after the assassination you went back to your hotel room. What did you then do like Friday and Saturday?
A. Well, you see, I can't get into specifics because I don't remember. I do know that I went directly back to the hotel, and I would guess Jean was there. You did say her name was Jean?
Q. Yes.
A. I would guess that she was there, and I switched on the television, either that or she had it on, and all we could see was the various things that were going apropos the assassination, and we never left the hotel. I never left the hotel Friday night that I can think of.
Q. What did you do Saturday?
A. Very little. Just probably stayed around the hotel.
Q. You watched a lot of television coverage?
A. Definitely watched it all day long. There was nothing else on television. I could of nothing else that I would have done. Nothing was open. There was no place to go. If I wanted to go to a movie I couldn't have gone.
Q. Was Jean west staying with you at the Cabana?
A. Yes.
Q. During that time. I checked the record and the record and indicates that your contacts with Jack Ruby on the weekend of the assassination consisted of the meeting we talked about the Carousel Club for about an hour Friday night.
A. NO. That was Thursday night.
Q. Thursday night. Excuse me. The 21st. Then a brief get-together at the Cabana. Then on the day of the assassination, Friday, I believe you had said that you didn't see Jack Ruby.
A. I don't remember seeing him.
Q. The record also indicates that you did not have dinner with Jack Ruby on the 23rd.
A. No.
Q. It indicates only on Saturday the 23rd, the day after the assassination.
A. Saturday the 24th.
Q. Saturday was the 23rd. Sunday was the 24th. The assassination was on Friday the 22nd.
A. Well, I did have dinner with Jack Ruby Saturday at night. I know that. BY MR. HORNBECK: Mr. Meyers, there is a statement that was purportedly taken by the FBI On the 3rd of December 1963 in Chicago.
A.t this time I am going to have you review that statement, and I direct your attention to the first page, which is a rather long paragraph and the second two paragraphs on page two, and if you will just read that statement silently to yourself first, and then we will see whether or not that statement refreshes your memory as to the events and whether or not that statement is accurate. It may not be accurate.
A. All right. (Document handed to the witness.) THE WITNESS: Now, are we concerned primarily with the dates on the statement that you are having me read? BY MR. HORNBECK:
Q. Well, we are concerned with the dates and the chronology.
A.ccording to--
A. Well, you see, then, I am absolutely right. I know I am right. Here, let me read this to you. May I?
Q. Certainly.
A. All right. This whole big paragraph states my arriving on the night of the 20th, and stayed at the Ramada Hotel, which is evidently true, and I checked into the Cabana on the morning of the 21st, which was Thursday.
Q. Right?
Q. Correct.
A. Then it says that I had gone to the club with Jean West, whose name I just found out from you, was a rather dumb but accommodating broad.
A.nd that we had gone by the Carousel Club and returned to the motel about 11:00 p.m., and that my brother and his wife joined us and Jack either came or was there, and he had a drink with us and then he went back to the club because he had -- well, whatever. He stayed only a few minutes before he left, saying he had to return to the club. This is all on the 21st. Then it says that "Mr. Meyers stated that his next contact with Jack Ruby was at approximately 10:30 p.m., Saturday, November 23rd, 1963. Ruby telephoned him at the Cabana motel. "He said at that time that Ruby was greatly disturbed, blah, blah, blah." Well, that was when we had dinner at the Cabana motel that night.
Q. What you are saying, Mr. Meyers, according to your testimony here, you said that you had dinner at the Cabana Saturday night.
A. Absolutely.
Q. And the FBI report reflects exactly what you have told us the conversation was, that is Abe Weinstein at the Colony Club and that being a very upsetting to Jack Ruby. That entire conversation which the FBI has as telephone actually it took place at a dinner conversation.
A. Definitely. We discussed this at dinner. I may have talked to him earlier on the telephone, because the assassination had already taken place and he had already, you know, formed whatever opinions he had, but very definitely the night of Saturday the 24th whatever that Saturday it was.
Q. Saturday the 23rd.
A. The 23rd. The night of Saturday the 23rd, Jack and I -- Jack was my guest for dinner there at the Cabana. That is an absolute fact and we certainly discussed this at the dinner. Hell, there was nothing else to talk about.
Q. One other statement I would just like to bring to your attention, and I am going to paraphrase the statement, and then I am going to give it to you for your perusal to see whether or not this statement sheds any light on your memory.
A. All right.
Q. This is a statement, again, purportedly taken by the FBI On the 3rd of December 1963, from Jean West, whose correct name, apparently, was Aase, which is A-a-s-e, correct spelling. Paraphrasing. She indicates that on Thursday, November the 21st, 1963, that after dinner you and Miss West went to the Carousel Club and chatted briefly with Jack Ruby, that you stayed there approximately one hour and returned to the Cabana at approximately 11:00 p.m., that Jack Ruby joined the party, the group, for a-few minutes and returned to the club. There was no talk about the President and him coming to Dallas. That you and Miss West stayed in Dallas until Monday night, November the 25th, and she did not see Ruby again during that stay, that is, except for the one time on the 21st, and she stated her contact with Ruby was limited to this one occasion.So I just want to have you examine that statement.
A. Well, this, what you read to me is very likely, very possibly true.
Q. Well, the difference would be whether or not you had dinner --
A. Well, where was she when we had dinner? She must have been there with us or stayed in her room. Damned if I know. You see, this particular statement or any of her contacts with any of the authorities, whether it be the FBI or whoever, I knew nothing about. I knew absolutely nothing about this, because when we got back from Dallas on that particular trip she went her way and I went mine, and I never saw her again, and I haven't seen her since.
A.s I say, I haven't the vaguest idea where the hell she is, or what she did. Now, how and shy, I don't know and, frankly, it is none of my business, but she made a statement to the FBI. Now, everything that she says here that you read to me is true, to the best of my memory, and the only thing I would question is where the hell was she when we had dinner. Why would I have dinner and not have her there, in view of the fact that they had already met.
Q. One other party who was in the area in that general time period was, of course, your brother and his wife.
A. Right.
Q. There is a statement from your brother Edward on the 5th of December 1963, in which he indicated that he had met Jack Ruby at the Bon Vivant Room at the Cabana about midnight--
A. That's the lounge room, right.
Q. -- on November the 21st, which is consistent with you, Miss West and your brother and his wife, that Jack Ruby went back to his club and that your brother Edward returned to New York via air, November 22nd, 1963, leaving the Dallas Airport early in the afternoon. He did observe President John F. Kennedy's arrival at Dallas at the Dallas Airport.
A. Right.
Q. So that your brother, according to this statement, could not have present Saturday.
A. At dinner Saturday night? He wasn't. He was in Dallas, but he was not at the dinner.
Q. Well, according to his statement he left Dallas--
A. Wait. Wait. You are right. You see, I got myself fouled on this thing. Kennedy got here the day before his assassination. That's right. I keep thinking being assassinated that day, but he got here and went to Fort Worth and then came back to Dallas. I assume that's right. I don't know. Now, the only reason -- well, there is no reason, because my brother did not have dinner with me Saturday night. It was just Jack and I and this West girl, unless for whatever reason I told her to get lost for a few hours. I don't know.
Q. Well, there's also an indication in the statement that you had planned to have dinner with Jack Sunday evening, the 24th, which, of course, you have testified today. Is there some reason why you would have had dinner two evenings in a row?
A. Yes. He was very upset. He was shaken. He was very, very upset about it. I don't know what other word to give it, and I had a golf date Sunday morning, and I said, "Jack let me go keep my golf date and I should be through along about 3:00 or 4:00 and I will come back and shower and we will get together and have dinner Sunday night." He said, "Fine."
Q. Could it be that your earlier memory, which is reflected in the FBI report, is better than your memory today?
A. Possibly.
Q. From the fact that you had planned to have dinner on Sunday and you were not able to have dinner on Saturday, or is your memory specifically that you definitely had dinner with Jack Ruby Saturday evening?
A. Unless I have completely blown my mind we had dinner Saturday night.
Q. Well, what we are after, of course, is your best memory, and that's --
A. I cannot visualize my living for 15 years and believing we had dinner Saturday night and not having had it. It just doesn't make sense.
Q. Let me ask you a couple of other questions that maybe in a roundabout way will help you to refresh your memory. It is clear that you and Miss West arrived on November the 20th. You stayed at the Ramada for the first evening. Can I ask you when you first met Jean West?
A. When did I first meet her?
Q. When did you first meet her and where?
A. I met her, I would venture to say, probably a week or a maximum of two weeks prior to the trip at a club in East Delaware.
Q. What was she doing at that time?
A. Damned if I know.
Q. What kind of a club was this?
A. A lounge.
Q. She was working in Chicago?
A. I don't know.
Q. How did it happen meeting her the week before she agreed to come to Dallas?
A.Because she was a party girl. She was a playgirl. Oh, how would you describe her. She was-- how do you describe a girl like that? She was a Semi-professional hooker. Does that make sense?
Q.Yes, sir. After this trip that was basically the last time that you saw her?
A. To the best of my knowledge I never saw her again.
Q.Did she ever mention during the time, the brief time that you knew her, that she had any contacts in New Orleans?
A. No. We talked -- really and truly, it is such a difficult thing to put into words. Obviously, I have no idea what your personal life is like. That's your business, but I was introduced to her at 20 East Delaware by the man who owned the building.
A.nd one word led to another and I said --- the way it would normally have happened, I would have said, "Les, I am leaving on this particular date for Dallas and I am going to be there for a few days," and either I would have said, "How about taking this character with me," or he would have said, "Why don't you take her with you."
A.nd I would have said, if he said that, then I would have said, "Well, is she willing to go?" He would have said, "Sure, she will go," or I would have said, "Les, if I ask her to go, will she go?" You see, this I don't know how it developed. Or I would have said, "She looks interesting. Would she make the trip to Dallas with me if I ask her? And he probably said, "Hell, yes. Just ask her." And that was it.
Q. Well, we are not interested in resurrecting your past personal life. There is a particular reason why we would like to know.
A. All we talked about, all we could possibly have talked about until the assassination, of course, would have been just nothing. You know, where are you from, where do you live, how are you doing, I am from Minneapolis. Do you know this club on Hanovan Street or this one on whatever street, you know, the type of routine conversation. New Orleans, we may have talked -- she may have told me she was in New Orleans. I just absolutely don't remember.
Q. Did you spend much time with her prior to leaving for Dallas?
A. No. It couldn't have been more than a few days in between the time I met her until we left.
A.s a matter of fact, it is going to sound ridiculous to you, but it may have been the next day, and I just don't remember.
Q. What we are primarily concerned with is whether it was a long or very brief encounter prior to your going to Dallas?
A. Very brief. Very brief.
Q. When you arranged to take her to Dallas did you go to her apartment to pick her up or did she meet you at the airport?
A. To this day I don't have the vaguest idea where she lived. She may have lived in that building. You know, it was a hotel apartment building.
Q. Did that particular hotel apartment building have a reputation for party girls staying there?
A. Yes. At that time. Showgirls.
Q. Was the management getting some kind of percentage at all from any activities that the girls were engaged in?
A. I would not believe it. I would doubt it very much. I could not answer positively, but I would doubt it. I know the man that owned the building, and I don't think he was that kind of a man.
Q. I take it, then, when you would go to the lounge in that building there would be no arrangement by you Or anyone else to pay the owner a certain fee?
A. Never. Never. The only thing in that sense that ever happened is that -- you must remember, now, that I had been there a number of times and if on any visit to that lounge, if I had any particular reason to want a room or apartment for that night I would just go direct to the apartment or to the room and pay whatever was the normal rate. In other words, I would sign the register.
Q. Is that hotel apartment building still in existence?
A. I guess so. It's a big one.
Q. I take it you haven't been back there in quite a while?
A. No. I haven't been in the place in years.
Q. When is the last time you saw the owner, if you can recall?
A. About 14 or 15 years ago.
Q. His name is Les --
A. Les Barker.
Q. I am not sure that that last series of questions did anything to refresh your memory one way or the other with regard to that Saturday night dinner.
A. As far as the girl is concerned it was just another thing, you know. So I had somebody with me on the trip, and I could think of no earthly reason that I would live for 14 or 15 years knowing that Jack Ruby and I had dinner that Saturday night and all of a sudden realize we didn't. It's just not right. Jack and I met Saturday night.
Q. And your memory is, as you sit here, is that you--
A. We had dinner Saturday night, and when he left we talked in terms of meeting again Sunday night. We either left it he would get in touch with me or I would get in touch with him.
Q. You had a deposition taken by a gentleman by the name of Burt Griffin during the Warren Commission phase of this investigation?
A. Could have been. I thought it was this Arlin Spector. It could have been Griffin, too. I don't know. It could have been, you know, two of them just like there are two of you here.
Q. All right. I am going to read some testimony, and this is testimony that is found in Volume XV of the Warren Commission Report. This is Mr. Griffin's question. This is found at page 631. "Mr. Griffin: 'Now, do you recall what you did on Saturday?' "Mr. Meyers: 'well, gosh, I don't know. I know I watched television with all of the business until my eyes bugged out of my head both Friday night and all day or most of the day Saturday.' "I couldn't have done anything of any consequence. There was no place to go.' "Mr. Griffin: 'Did you at any time drive down to Daily Plaza or the site of the shooting?' "Mr. Meyers: 'That is possible. Very possible. Highly possible.' "Mr. Griffin: 'Did there come a time on Saturday when you did talk to Jack Ruby?' "Mr. Meyers: 'Yes.' "Mr. Griffin: "Where were you at the time?' "Mr. Meyers: 'In bed.' "Mr. Griffin: 'What is your best recollection of what time this was?' "Mr. Meyers: '9:00 or 10:00 Saturday night.' "Mr. Griffin: 'How do you happen to fix that time?' "Mr. Meyers: 'Well, because I was undressed and going to bed, and I wouldn't have gone to bed. I certainly wouldn't have gone to bed much later than that because there wouldn't have been anything for me to do or anyplace to go. It would have been a case of sitting in the room or driving around in the car, which I didn't want to do, or sitting in the lobby reading a book, which I didn't want to do.' "I was in the room in bed, and I am again saying that somewhere, 9:00 or 10:00 that night, a few minutes either way, it is highly possible the phone rang and it was Jack on the phone."'
A.nd there is a paragraph talking about watching television. "Mr. Griffin: 'About how long did you your telephone conversation with Ruby last Saturday night?' "Mr. Meyers: 'I would say in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 minutes.' "Mr. Griffin: 'About 15 or 20 minutes is a reasonably long telephone call.' "Mr. Meyers: 'It was a reasonably long telephone conversation. I would say possibly 15 minutes."' Then there is a discussion about what was said about Dallas and that kind of thing. There is no mention of, again, any dinner on Saturday night, the 23rd.
A. Well, maybe I am losing my mind, but I would swear we had dinner Saturday night.
Q. Could it be that you are confusing the night of the 21st when you might have had something to eat at the Cabana with your brother Saturday night?
A. I don't know. You are really shocking me now, because I just don't believe this. I don't believe that I could be wrong, but if that's what I said in 1963, my memory was certainly a lot fresher in 1963 than it is in 1978. Maybe it was Friday night. I don't know. I can't swear, but I can't believe that we didn't have dinner Saturday night.
Q. May I suggest this, Mr. Meyers, that we will xerox a copy of that portion of testimony. In fact, your entire portion.
A. I have the Warren Commission report book at home. I will go over it if you want me to.
Q. Why don't you do that and one of us will be in touch with you by telephone or directly, and we will see whether that refreshes your memory as to the events.
A. All right. Believe me, I am thoroughly confused. MR. HORNBECK: Why don't we take a short recess now. (A short recess was taken. ) BY MR. PURDY:
Q. What had you planned to do on Saturday, November the 23rd, during the day if it hadn't been for the assassination?
A. Oh, I don't. Probably play golf.
Q. Would you have played golf out in the direction of McKinney, Texas?
A. I could have played in McKinney. They have a golf course there.
Q. Did you have any business dealings that you were supposed to do on Saturday?
A. Not that I can remember.
Q. Had you finished your business dealings on Friday?
A. Pretty much.
Q. You said that you planned to go play golf in Sherman, Texas.
A. Right.
Q. What day had you planned to go?
A. Sunday.
Q. That was Sunday you had planned to go?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go?
A. Yes.
Q. And you played golf?
A. Yes. The worst game I ever had in my life.
Q. Were you playing golf when you found out that Jack Ruby had shot --
A. No. I had already found out about it. I found out about it driving up to McKinney.
Q. That was after the golf game?
A. No. NO. You see, I was staying -- let me give it to you so you will have it right for the record.
A.s you know, as your records show, I was staying at the Cabana, and I had a car. I assume I had a rental car. I am sure Sherwood didn't lend me a car, and I had made a date with Jim Acklin who is Herb Gibson's brother-in-law who owned the Gibson Stores out of Sherman, Texas. Sherman, if you are not aware of the geography, is some 20 to 30 miles north of McKinney. McKinney is some 20 miles north of Dallas. I had made this date probably Thursday or Friday morning with Acklin to play golf, and I had also made a date -- then I told Sherwood Smith that I was going to play golf with Jim Acklin in Sherman Sunday morning, that we had a 10:00 or something tee-off time.
A.nd I said that I would stop at his house in McKinney which is on the way to Sherman and have some coffee with him. Well, between Dallas and McKinney, I had the car radio on, and I heard Ruby had killed Oswald. And it just flipped me. What else can I say? Think of a man you had talked to the night before and he turns around and kills Oswald.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. Well, I went on to Sherman and I walked into the lounge of the -- we played golf at the Perrin Air Force Base Golf Course. I walked into the lounge, and Jim was there with some friends of his that we were going to play with.
A.nd he looked at me and he said, "What is wrong with you?" My face was green. I must have looked like something out of the clouds.
A.nd I says, "Well, do you have any idea just what happened?" He said, "Yes, we just saw it," you know, "watched it on television."
A.nd I said, "Would you believe I was with that guy last night?" Which convinces me again that I had dinner with the guy Saturday night. I said, "Would you believe that I was with that guy last night?" He said, "Who?"
A.nd I said, "The nut that killed him."
Q. This is Jim Acklin you are talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you spell his last name?
A. A-c-k-l-i-n.
Q. Is he still alive?
A. Yes. He still lives in McKinney -- in Sherman. I can't tell you his address, but he lives there. Well, you know, when I told him that I had been with him or that I knew him, or whatever I said, they obviously wanted me tell them what I could.
A.nd I said, "What can I tell you?" He wanted to know did I still want to play golf and I said, "Well, yes, let's go on out and play. It is better than sitting around and biting my fingernails." So we played golf and when we got through playing I came back. Maybe I stopped in McKinney on the way down. I don't remember, but I know I came back to Dallas.
Q. You came back to the Cabana?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Not a damned thing.
Q. You just stayed there at the hotel?
A. Just stayed there.
Q. Jean West was there, of course.
A. I assume she was.
Q. Then you spent that night at the Cabana?
A. Sure.
Q. What you do the next morning?
A. Well, I don't know, here again. I know we went home that day. We went back to Chicago, and whether I saw any customers Monday morning or not, I just don't remember.
Q. Was your original plan to leave Monday for Chicago?
A. Here again, I don't remember. I would assume so.
Q. On Sunday did you consider going to the Dallas Police Department about the fact that you had seen Ruby?
A. Yes and no. I was going to go and then I talked myself out of it.
Q. Why did you consider going?
A. Well, I don't know. I don't know. A concerned citizen, I suppose. I had talked to Ruby the day before.
Q. Did you think you had some information to provide?
A. Just what you have in the report. Nothing beyond that.
Q. That is the reason you thought about going. Why did you decide not to go?
A. Again, I didn't want to get involved. To begin with, if I had gone, if it had been publicized it would have been in the newspaper and the fact that I was not here alone, I don't think my wife would have appreciated that. So I would have been in a bind and evidently I assumed what I had to tell them wasn't that damned important. Plus the fact that I had lost, and for God's sake, don't publicize this, I had lost all respect for the Dallas Police Department.
Q. Because of the shooting?
A. With what had happened. Both the assassination and the Oswald shooting.
A.s far as I am concerned, the Dallas Police Department was so stupid on the whole thing. It was unreal, but that's not part of your investigation here.
Q. You mentioned earlier that the only thing you knew about Jean West or Jean Aase was that she originally came from Minneapolis. You indicated you met her in the lounge of a building that was on 20 East Delaware in Chicago?
A. That's right.
Q. What is the name of that building?
A. 20 East Delaware.
Q. That was the name of the building, also?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the name of the lounge?
A. I would think it was the 20 East Delaware Lounge. That is as near as I can remember. It may have had a name.
Q. Did Jean West ever have access to your telephone credit card that weekend?
A. Not that I would know of.
Q. Do you think she was aware of you having it? Did you use it in front of her?
A. That's possible.
Q. What did Jean West do during that weekend when she wasn't with you?
A. I really don't know. I don't she did much of anything.
A.s far as I know she knew nobody down here. I have no idea what she could have done.
Q. Did she go sightseeing?
A. She would have walked if she did.
Q. Did she run up any bills?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did she mention that she had seen any place in particular or had seen anyone in particular?
A. No.
Q. Prior to your leaving with Miss West for Dallas did you call her long distance from the office that Wednesday morning, which would have been Wednesday the 20th?
A. Well, I don't know. I don't remember having called her. I don't know why I would, because I would assume she was still living in Chicago, unless she had gone to Minneapolis and I called her there. I don't remember. No recollection at all.
Q. Did anyone else that you knew know her?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever know David Fairey?
A. No. I know who you are talking about. I read about him.
Q. Did you know whether or not Jean West knew him?
A. I would be very surprised if she did.
Q. Do you know Nofio Pecora?
A.Who?
Q. Nofio Pecora, P-e-c-o-r-a?
A.No.
Q. Did you know Guy Bannister?
A. No.
Q. Did you know G. Ray Gill?
A. No.
Q. A New Orleans attorney?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever contacted by Jim Garrison?
A.No.
Q.Or any of his representatives?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Did you ever have any contacts with anyone associated with any anti-Cuban or anti-Castro groups?
A. NO.
Q.Did you pay the expenses of Jean West on the trip?
A. Sure.
Q. You said that was your last contact with her?
A. The last time I saw her and talked to her was when we got back to Chicago.
Q. Did you know that she made plans, made arrangements with Joyce McDonald to go shopping with her that weekend?
A. I didn't even know that she knew Joyce McDonald.
Q. So, then you wouldn't know why she cancelled the plans?
A. No way, unless -- no, she couldn't have been because it wasn't that time unless she was with me at the time I went out to the State Fair to Joyce McDonald, but that was not at that time. I don't how she possible could have been.
Q. That was on a previous visit in October?
A. The Joyce McDonald thing.
Q. Right. What was Jean West doing at the time of the assassination?
A. I would guess she was in the hotel. I don't know where she was. I left her there when I left. I didn't take her along with me when I went out to call on customers.
Q. Was Ralph Meyers staying at the Cabana the weekend of the assassination?
A. Ralph Meyers was in Mexico City.
Q. And he hadn't come to Dallas during that time?
A.No way.
Q.What is Ralph Meyers' middle name?
A.Lynn. L-v-n-n. You are speaking of my son?
Q. I believe so.
A.Oh, yes.
Q.Did you know another Meyers who was staying at the Cabana?
A. No.
Q.Did you receive any phone calls or messages for someone else?
A.If I did, I don't remember it.
Q. Where was Ralph Meyers staying in Mexico City?
A.Well, he lived there. It's his home. I think at that time he lived on a street called, as they say down there, Jaime Sullivan. James Sullivan.
Q.Are you familiar with Mexico City, either one of you?
A. He was working for a newspaper. Ralph is a journalist.
Q. Was he at that time still working on a job that required the security clearance that he had?
A.Ralph?
Q. Yes.
A. I wouldn't think so, not in Mexico. Now, he had a security clearance because when he was in the Army -- I guess you have that information.
Q. Yes.
A.I assume you do. He was in the ASA.
Q. When did he terminate that work?
A. When he was discharged from the Army.
Q. What year was that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Was that before 1960 or--
A. Yes. Let me see if I can go back chronologically- Ralph was born in 1937. He was 18 when he got out of high school, which would have made it 1953. Right? MR. HORNBECK: '55. He was born in '37. THE WITNESS: '55. Right. Then he went to the University of Illinois for almost three years, which would put it right around 1958. Then he joined the Army, and he was sent to the Presidio at Monterey, California to an operation called the Army Language School where he -- he was a Russian, and when he got through that -- of course, that's where he got his clearance. He was in the Army
A. Yes. Let me see if I can go back chronologically- Ralph was born in 1937. He was 18 when he got out of high school, which would have made it 1953. Right? MR. HORNBECK: '55. He was born in '37. THE WITNESS: '55. Right. Then he went to the University of Illinois for almost three years, which would put it right around 1958. Then he joined the Army, and he was sent to the Presidio at Monterey, California to an operation called the Army Language School where he -- he was a Russian, and when he got through that -- of course, that's where he got his clearance. He was in the Army Security Agency setup. I think he spent four years in the Army, which would put it about 1962, and he spent the last two years of his Army time in Turkey. As he described it, an anthill outside of Ankara monitoring Russian propaganda. Then he came back to the states, came back home. You would have to ask him, really. I don't remember, but I think he came back to Chicago, and he spent a year in Chicago driving a city bus. Now, when the heck did she get married. I think Vicki was married at that time. No. She was married in December of 1963, December the 15th of 1963, and at the time prior to her marriage she was a student at the University of Puerto Rico. Vicki had gotten her masters from the University of Wisconsin, and she was at some university in Puerto Rico on what they -- what did they call it, a grant? You are probably more familiar with it than I am. Her field was engineering chemistry. She got married December the 15th of 1963, and for a year or so -- here again you will have to get the exact figures -- she worked for the Nuclear Energy Operation outside of Chicago, suburban Chicago. I would know the name if you mentioned it but I can't remember it. She had all kinds of security clearances, and she and Martin -- her husband is a professor of physics at Northwestern. They were married, and then not too long after that, I would guess, maybe a year or two, Martin was invited to lecture for a year at Leeds University in Leeds, England. They went there, and my first granddaughter was born there. At the end of the year or a little longer, they went though the summer vacation and they came back to the Chicago area and they lived in a suburb of Chicago called Skokie. And they had another little girl about a year after that, and that's all she has done since then. She lives in suburban Chicago now.
Q.Let me ask you this: Regarding your brother and your communication to each other, the fact that you would be in Dallas, I think you said that there had been a phone call. One of you called the other to let you know that you would be in Dallas around the same time; do you remember that?
A. Evidently, yes. One of us -- what could have happened -- now, here again, remember I lived in Chicago at that time and Eddie lived in Brooklyn, as he always has. I could have easily called Ellie and told him I had planned to be in Dallas the latter part of November. He could have said, "Well, that's great because I am going to bottlers convention in November," on whatever the day was, "and we can meet there." Or it could have been the other way around. He could have told me that he was going to be in Dallas at that time in November. As far as my work is concerned I could make a trip to Dallas anytime I wanted to. I always had a reason to come, business-wise, and I could have said, "Well, Eddie, that's fine. I will try to meet you there."
Q. What was your most recent contact with your brother prior to your visit in Dallas?
A. Prior to the visit to Dallas?
Q. Yes. I guess it would have been the phone call?
A. Either that or I could have gone to New York City on some occasion.
Q.Do you remember being in New York in early November 1963?
A. I have no recollection. I could have. I don't remember.
Q. Did you have some business purposes that might have brought you there?
A. I could have gone to New York City on businesss or I could have gone to New York City on family affairs. I also have two sisters who live in the New York City area.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection to know that your brother Edward left from Mexico about November the 8th? Did you see him shortly before he left, do you remember?
A. I wouldn't think so. I just don't remember. I would have no reason, you know, specifically to see him unless I was going to New York City on business.
Q. As far as you know the only reason that your brother went to Dallas was for this bottlers convention?
A. Oh, definitely.
Q. Was the convention hotel the Adolphus?
A. I think so. They stayed at the Adolphus. I would assume they stayed where the headquarters of the convention was. You also have the information, I am sure you do, the reason they went to Mexico was to visit his wife's sister who lived in Mexico -- still lives in Mexico City.
Q. What does she do in Mexico City?
A. She is a widow. She does nothing.
Q. What is her name?
A. Her first name is Edith. Damned if I can remember. I can't remember her last name. This is my brother's wife's sister. Her husband died some 10 or 12 years ago. Her husband's name was Carl Wellman, W-e-l-l-m-a-n. She is Mrs. Carl Wellman, or as they would have it in the local phone directory there, Mrs. Carlos Wellman.
Q. One question I forgot to follow up on before. You had said that one of the reasons you left the Ero company was because of the financial situation of that company and your financial situation, you were in debt. Who were you in debt to?
A.To whom was I in debt?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Oh, to a number of people. To a man who -- I can't even remember the name of the damned company he worked for. I can't remember his name. I owed him in the area of seven or S8,000.00.
Q. How did that debt arise?
A. We had a stock transaction deal that was very wrong on my part, and I paid him back the money that went bad.
Q. Who else did you owe money to?
A. I owed Les Barker.
Q. How much money?
A. About $3,000.00.
Q. What was that for?
A. The same thing.
Q. A different deal or --
A. No, the same stock transaction deal that went haywire, and I paid him back. That is it. I paid them back so many dollars per month. BY MR. HORNBECK:
Q. I take it that none of these debts were occasioned by any gambling losses of any sort?
A. Oh, no.
Q. During the time that you knew Jack Ruby did you ever know him to gamble in sports events or any other kinds of events?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever discuss gambling or betting in the Dallas area?
A. (Shakes head. )
Q. Did he ever discuss any gambling or racketeering elements in Chicago that he knew or did business with?
A. Oh, to a degree. To this degree: he was telling me about his childhood in Chicago, his youth, and again I assume you have all of this information. He lived on the west side of Chicago, which at that time, and probably still is, I guess, a very poor neighborhood, and his parents were immigrants and had few opportunities. And he grew up in an atmosphere of, well, as they used to describe in on the east side of New York City, you either became a judge or you became a Sing-Sing inmate, one or the other.
A.nd I think -- well, as he described it, most of the people he contacted he knew as a kid were-- well, call them in the hoodlum area, and he gravitated to this kind of thing. And that his way of making a dollar or two in those days was hustling tickets for sporting events, fights or hockey games, or whatever.
Q. Scalping?
A. Scalping. And it may be -- I have a vague recollection that he said something about being a runner for somebody in the numbers racket, that type of thing. But on the very, very fringe of racketeering, I guess is what you would call it.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you, or did you ever hear the story that he left Chicago to go to Dallas in Approximately 1947 because he was indebted to the syndicate in Chicago and was forced out of that area?
A. Well. That is very, very much news to me.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you or have you heard that the union that Jack was associated with in Chicago had their president shot and killed just prior to the time that Jack Ruby left Chicago?
A. This is also something that is the first time I have heard it.
Q. Would you describe Jack Ruby as a name dropper kind of person?
A. Well, let me sort of answer you in a little different way. May I?
Q. Sure.
A. Jack Ruby had absolutely no education of any kind. I don't even know whether he graduated from grammar school. I really don't know. He had the most atrocious taste in clothes, to me. He would wear pinstripe clothes almost all of the time. I think that's because of the pictures of the racketeers are always in pinstripe clothes. He wanted very much to upgrade himself socially. Culturally. Maybe that is a better way to state it. Therefore, whenever he met anybody who could read, write and speak English fluently, why, these people became his friends, if they would let him be his friend.
A.nd I think he would name-drop. Here again, I can't remember the names he would drop, but if he dropped any names to me it would always have to be people who were on a social strata he would like to be. Now, whether it was in a racketeering sense or not, you know, like people would say, "Well, I knew Al Capone," you know. If he said it that way, I don't know. He was a man of extremes. Now, you know, there many people that you know in your life, all three of you have met people, in your life whom you either liked or disliked. They have just not made enough of an impression on you either way. So, if they are around, fine, and if they are not around it is just as fine. It doesn't make any difference. My memory of Jack is he either liked you or he disliked you. There was no inbetween with Jack Ruby. He was a man of violent temperament. We had talked about this Jada. He threw her down a flight of steps. He could have killed her. Do you have any idea how long those steps were in the Carousel Club? Then again I would see him get down on his hands and knees with a bottle of milk and feed a puppy, feed his dog, just like a mother would feed her baby. He is a hard man to describe. Again, I can only speak from my personal opinion. I think he was a nut. I don't think he knew he was going to shoot him until he did it. He always carried a gun. I think your records will show that. He always carried a gun, and the main reason he always carried a gun, as far as I am concerned, is that whenever he closed the club he would take the money out with him.
Q. You saw him personally do this on several occasions?
A. Oh, Yes. He carried a gun all the time. He put his money in a little bag in the trunk of his car.
Q. Was that because he didn't believe in banks or was there --
A. He either didn't believe in banks or had no safe to leave it in at the club. I don't know why he did it. BY MR. PURDY:
Q. Did you see the gun?
A. I think so. I would think so.
Q. Was there anything unusual about the particular gun?
A. No. It was not a Luger or anything like that. It was a typical revolver.
Q. Was there anything unusual about the hammer of the gun?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Was there a shroud over the hammer?
A. I don't know. I have never seen it that close.
A.gain, you know, I guess I am sounding like a broken record. I think that he went into that garage, and I don't think anybody stopped him because he was a very familiar face, and as I said before the Dallas Police Department in those days was not overly bright, and they brought Oswald out and he had a sneer or leer or whatever on his face. Then I think Ruby just decided all of a sudden he was going to be the avenger, and he shot him. Now, I think one day my great-great-grandchildren will be worrying about what the hell happened, too. I saw a movie the other night where they were trying to determine whether John Wilkes Booth was the one who really killed Lincoln. Did you see it on television the other night? MR. HORNBECK: I didn't see it. BY MR. HORNBECK:
Q. Mr. Meyers, just one very brief area.
A. Sure.
Q. Does your brother Edward still have his bottling company?
A. Oh, yes. He doesn't have a bottling company.
Q. What exactly is that?
A. He is a distributor. You see, Pepsi Cola has a setup where they do not do their own distributing in the New York City area, but they sell their product to distributors who have franchise territories. In other words, only this particular distributor can distribute Pepsi Cola and its products in this given area. And Eddie has, oh, I don't know, four or five franchises.
Q. Approximately how many employees does he have working for him, or did he have in 1963?
A. At that time, I guess, about the same as he has today. He has got, let's say, four trucks, so he probably has about eight or ten people working for him.
Q. Are they union drivers?
A. Oh, definitely. A very strong union.
Q. Did he ever have any problem with the union in the 1960's?
A. No. As a matter of fact, he has commented, has talked about it. As a matter of fact, rather recently he has commented that his drivers have been with him for many, many years and he has had no problems. MR. HORNBECK: I have no further questions. BY MR. PURDY:
Q. Would you like to avail yourself of the opportunity now to make any comments, to put anything you have said into context?
A. No. I have just said about anything I have to say. I am sure that even what I was commenting after you had stopped there -- I don't mean when it was off the record. I mean now when we were talking that you have taken down everything I have said about my personal feelings in this. BY MR. HORNBECK:
Q. I did want to ask you one thing. You mentioned you played you played golf with Mr. Campisi the other day.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that frequent?
A. No. I said I played with him. Let me make that a little clearer. I did not play with him. We were not on the same foursome. We were in the same tournament.
Q. Are you speaking acquaintances, first name --
A. No. Just if I see him, to say hello, and he will say hello, but we are not at all friendly. And I don't mean this in any nasty sense to him or to me. We have just never had occasion to be friendly. Campisi has, obviously, been in Dallas for many, many years, and I have only been here for 14 years. MR. HORNBECK: Thank you very much. (whereupon the deposition concluded at 5:30 p.m.) CERTIFICATE I, GARLIN ATTAWAY, a Notary Public in and for Harris County, Texas, being the Notary Public before whom the aforegoing sworn testimony of LAWRENCE VICTOR MEYERS was taken, do hereby certify that the witness was first duly sworn by me to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that the above and foregoing is a true and correct transcript of said testimony. Given under my hand and seal of office on this the 29th day of May, 1978. __________________________________ Garlin Attaway, Notary Public in and for Harris County, Texas