TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, Roy S. Truly.
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These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.
Would you please rise and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BRENNAN. I do.
Mr. CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan. Belin will conduct the interrogation.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?
Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27.
Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you?
Mr. BRENNAN. 45.
Mr. BELIN. Are you married?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Family?
Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?
Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter.
Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?
Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a steamfitter?
Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe.
Mr. BRENNAN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job?
Mr. BRENNAN. I go from Job to job.
Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union?
Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?
Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.
Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?
Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
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were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.
Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on.
Mr. BELIN. All right. This is. the retaining wall on which you perched. I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday.
Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 478.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken On the 20th of March?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction?
Mr. BRENNAN. South.
Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. At about 12
Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination.
Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true--
Mr. BRENNAN. True location.
Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22d?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 479.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for identification.)
Mr. BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. And I will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged. This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg.
Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?
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Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet.
Mr. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that day, November 22d?
Mr. BRENNAN. It does.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.
Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.
Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man.
All right.
And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.
All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two times come back and forth.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor.
There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed.
There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?
Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.
Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one?
Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?
Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And
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I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot.
Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about now?
Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window.
Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?
Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know?
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw--standing or sitting?
Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?
Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.
Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else except--
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot--
Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it.
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr. BELIN. About what weight?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.
Mr. BELIN. A white man?
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Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump off?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street.
Mr. BELIN. When you say "they", who do you mean?
Mr. BRENNAN. Law-enforcement officers.
Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do?
Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?
Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.
And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.
I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there.
I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story building it was.
Representative FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. BRENNAN. He
The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir?
Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there?
Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building.
Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person?
Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please?
Mr. BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes ago--
Mr. BELIN. Go right ahead, sir.
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Mr. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I mentioned these two colored guys.
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the two
Mr. BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two boys to the officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; that concludes that.
Mr. McCLOY. They were running out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on the Elm street side.
Mr. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned them.
Representative FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man stopped them.
I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them.
Representative FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building talking to whom?
Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer.
Representative FORD. And these two Negroes came out of the front door?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. And you did what then?
Mr. BRENNAN. I---
Representative FORD. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. BRENNAN. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor underneath the man that fired the gun.
Representative FORD. You positively identified them?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did, at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time I did recognize those two boys.
Representative FORD. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that they had been in the fifth floor window
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't recall. I don't recall.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?
Mr. BRENNAN. On Friday evening, you are speaking of?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station?
Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on that floor.
(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room. )
Mr. BRENNAN. I later was introduced to several men-Captain Fritz in Mr. Sorrels office, and several more men. I do not remember their names.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe I ever heard it I do not remember his name.
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Mr. BELIN. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels.
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know the other man's name.
Mr. BELIN. You believe one of them was Sorrels?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe one of them was Sorrels.
Mr. BELIN. I think for the record--
Mr. BRENNAN. That is at the building.
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and 479.
Mr. DULLES. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence this morning.
They shall be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with you here today.
Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related here?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more especially the Bible and blueprint.
Mr. BELIN. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 years?
Mr. BRENNAN. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility less than a year before the incident.
Mr. DULLES. Does that mean you are farsighted?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BELIN. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What has happened?
Mr. BRENNAN. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted.
Mr. BELIN. This is January of 1964?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely blind for about 6 hours.
Mr. BELIN. How is your eyesight today?
Mr. BRENNAN. He says it is not good.
Mr. BELIN. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what did you say?
Mr. BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that Oswald--or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup.
Mr. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what?
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not remember.
Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television or in the newspapers?
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Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, on television.
Mr. BELIN. About when was that, do you believe?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television before I went down to the police station for the lineup.
Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the time of the lineup?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I told them I could not make a positive identification.
Mr. BELIN. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer or investigating person anything different?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When did that happen?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe some days later--I don't recall exactly--and I believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams, I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that-whether his name was Williams or not.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it could have been FBI instead of Secret Service.
But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston.
And I--
Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, he asked me he said, "You said you couldn't make a positive identification."
He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't you?"
And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for security reasons--my family and myself.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and yourself?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have been released by the police?
Mr. BRENNAN. Beg pardon?
Mr. BELIN. If you would not have identified that man positively, might he not have been released by the police?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. That had a great contributing factor--greater contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released.
Mr. BELIN. The murder of whom?
Mr. BRENNAN. Of Officer Tippit.
Mr. BELIN. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him?
Mr. BRENNAN. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one way or the other?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is something I do not know.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could at that time I could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man.
Mr. BELIN. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a couple of times, first stepping up and then going back?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About how far were you away from that window at the time you saw him, Mr. Brennan?
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Mr. BRENNAN. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at an angle.
Mr. BELIN. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and it ran about--
Mr. BRENNAN. 93-foot.
Representative FORD. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south.
Representative FORD. But he might be able to show the direction from which he came to get on to the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Yes; that he can do.
Representative FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time.
Mr. BELIN. I think he might do that right now.
Mr. BRENNAN, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm Street. And you can see running in a north- south direction Houston Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in black.
Do you see that?
Mr. BRENNAN. It should be here.
Mr. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment.
This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you walked to the south.
I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch.
Mr. BRENNAN. This is Main here.
Mr. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes. If you would, put a "D" at that point.
Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day.
All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would be the southeast corner?
Mr. BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this corner.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361.
Mr. BRENNAN. "E"?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall is.
Mr. BELIN. All right. So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting facing the School Book Depository Building.
Representative FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the Secret Service officers?
Mr. BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across here.
Mr. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him?
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Mr. BRENNAN. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. This is where I contacted the officer.
Mr. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F".
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then you went over to a car.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on there?
Mr. BRENNAN. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer.
Mr. BELIN. All right, the point from "E" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on Houston?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do remember going in that direction with the officer.
Mr. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to
Mr. BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, just to show the route of you going north.
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here?
Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home my wife saw it.
Mr. BELIN. On television?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them.
Do you remember what station they were on television?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.
Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with?
Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
We thank you very much for that information.
Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office?
Mr. BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway.
Mr. BELIN. Of what building?
Mr. BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me across to the Sheriff's office.
Mr. DULLES. You did not go inside the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I did not.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two Negroes came out?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different picture I cannot remember.
Representative FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the two Negroes?
Mr. BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps.
Mr. BELIN. Was that at point "G"?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along Houston Street to the time to the place where you were sitting. You recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there?
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Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you start there and kind of trace--well, I don't know if you can see all of it.
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here. Here would be the intersection. of Main and Houston.
Mr. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that time.
Mr. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there.
Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you. would, there, please.
Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting-- you said you first went over to another side of the wall.
Would it be to the east or to the west there?
Mr. BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete.
Mr. BELIN. Is this where you went?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after the shooting?
All right.
Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was.
It looks like there is a car there now.
So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, would correspond with "F, on Exhibit 361, is that right?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you went to the car.
Mr. BRENNAN. This car here--letter what?
Mr. BELIN. "L".
Mr. BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where--
Mr. BELIN. I note that this ear that you have marked the "L" is not actually
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on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the Freeway.
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right? Yes; you are correct there.
Mr. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be behind--you might put the letter "M" to show the car which it is behind now.
Mr. BRENNAN. All right.
Mr. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits.
Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked.
(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered.
Mr. DULLES. What is 361?
Mr. BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked.
(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time.
I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit 482 is an enlargement of 481.
First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them.
As positive identification I cannot recognize them.
Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
I am going to hand you now
Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"?
Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. These do.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now?
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Mr. BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low.
Mr. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.
Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.
Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes.
Mr. BELIN. In the window or behind time window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Behind the window.
Mr. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself.
Mr. BRENNAN. No, no. That is--I don't remember a box in the window, these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When you say you don't remember
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in that picture. Am I right?
Mr. BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That could be the dirty window here.
Mr. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there.
Mr. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482. First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there.
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could not say it definitely wasn't there.
Mr. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes.
All right.
Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I believe it is, Underwood or--just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in Dallas in the first part of April.
And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record.
I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film.
Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn?
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Mr. BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man or rifle in the window.
Mr. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first thought was what?
Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle.
Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker.
Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last?
Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and dear, with no echo on my part.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. But you saw him aim?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you see what he was firing at?
Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the President or his car at that time.
And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately 90 yards.
At that time did you make that statement to the FBI--and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?
Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards. Now, I--
Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?
Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position.
Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after.
Mr. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in the
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window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle.
Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI on or about November 227
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe--
Mr. BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, as to what you told them?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them?
Mr. BRENNAN. Why did I--
Mr. BELIN. No.
What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, which • naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of Oswald at the police department.
Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told the FBI with regard to that matter of identification?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it does.
Mr. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window.
Now, is that what you told the man on January 7--that Oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not want to give a positive identification at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that
Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window.
Is that what you told them?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
You mean told this man?
Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir.
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted that I was saying that again.
Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words.
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When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th of this year.
Mr. BRENNAN. All right.
Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police Department lineup?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give whether or not you felt on November 22d that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not what you told him, but what was the fact?
Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could give positive identification as well as I did later.
Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me on the plane of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.
Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet.
Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.
Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.
Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.
Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.
Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit darker line.
Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it.
Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.
But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look
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at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.
Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits 480, 481, and 482.
Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence. )
Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.
Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir.
Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 110-foot. That was my first calculation.
But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.
Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir. When did you first see Exhibit 479?
Mr. BRENNAN. This morning.
Mr. BELIN. This morning here.
And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person-out as being you in that picture? Was it you or was it I?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did.
I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever.
Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in Dallas--that would be on March 20th.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" Or did I just ask you repeated questions?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened.
Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up.
Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined?
Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist there.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
How did you find that out?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.
Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only.
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.
Mr. BRENNAN Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or early February of this year.
Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and it
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is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just regular clear.
Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions.
You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusilade of shots.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up-- from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas Book Store I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may have been completely wrong, they may have the Secret Service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building.
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Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak?
Mr. BRENNAN. yes. That was my thoughts.
Mr. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations.
Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?
Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include in the record--I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background--I think it would be helpful for the record.
Mr. DULLES. We have certain information.
Mr. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning.
Representative FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience; and I think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information.
Mr. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record?
Representative FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record.
Mr. DULLES. Prior to his testimony?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself--our date and place of birth, where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last 20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or somewhere like that.
Mr. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steam fitter.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in California, private business.
Mr. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. What church are you a member of?
Mr. BRENNAN. Baptist.
Mr. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should.
Mr. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?
Mr. BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir.
One question-- when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me?
Mr. BRENNAN. I told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. I told
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you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what happened.
Representative FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your own?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right, I have.
Mr. DULLES. Anything you would like to add?
Mr. BELIN. One other question, sir.
For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you give all of the reasons, please?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much younger, but a few years younger--say 5 years younger.
And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose.
Representative FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November 22d, that is when you did get home?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Was your wife there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked--I talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy.
Representative FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d?
Mr. BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family.
So that was just about the length of our discussion of it.
She seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go.
Representative FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not to tell--not to give any information out. My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that. evening, and my daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, to tell them where they could contact me.
And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly.
Representative FORD. 6 p.m., November 22d.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right.
Representative FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station?
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Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. I believe that is all I told her.
Mr. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150.
Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?
Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade or so lighter.
Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you see the man's trousers at all?
Do you remember any color?
Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.
Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I am sure you do.
Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?
I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin.
Mr. BELIN. Well, sir, we. want to thank you for your cooperation with the Commission.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here.
