TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN

The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

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Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn inhere. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BROWN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please.
Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. BROWN. Police officer.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?
Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.
Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?
Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home.
Mr. BELIN. You go to school there?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?
Mr. BROWN. Through high school.
Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?
Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way?
Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. BROWN. No; divorced.
Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy?
Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way?
Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy.
Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my discharge in 1944.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war?
Mr. BROWN. I started to work for Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.
Mr. BELIN. As what?
Mr. BROWN. As an installer.
Mr. BELIN Of telephones?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went to work for the city of Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go to work for the city of Dallas Police Department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since.
Mr. BELIN. How long now?
Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.
Mr. BELIN. What is your position now?
Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so?
Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective J.R. Leavelle.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President?
Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the office.

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Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now."
So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there and help them."
So we immediately put this subject in jail.
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. My partner went in the front of the building. I went to the back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me to do. He said for me and Detective B.L. Senkel to gather up--there was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take them to city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they were at the time of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey Oswald.
And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is one of my boys."
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say?
Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald in there in the room we were using.
We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in there.
Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there.
He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes."
Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time?
Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas School Book Depository. He called from there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes."
Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination?
Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal opinion at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, saw, or heard at the time of the assassination.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the time you talked to him?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in conjunction with what his work consisted of,

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when he was employed, and what he was doing, and what type work he did there.
Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the shooting?
Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do.
Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President?
Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he said he was.
Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me.
Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then.
Mr. BROWN. All right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee?
Mr. BROWN. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit?
Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form?
I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that you participated in?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner, McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m.
Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from your left to right.
Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right.
Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BROWN. No; it does not.
Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available?
Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the bus transfer.
Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup were for other witnesses to observe.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup?
Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his identification?
Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the bus. I gave him a transfer."
Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found in Oswald's possession?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office.
Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that?

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Mr. BROWN. No; I did not.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority.
Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that?
Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark."
Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that?
Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, and he held it up for comparison there in our presence.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you remember?
Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup.
Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups.
Mr. BELIN. Who else?
Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N. Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home.
After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs. Barbara Jeannette Davis.
Mr. BELIN. Was----
Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and Mrs. Barbara Davis.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick?
Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a four-man lineup.
Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man?
Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got them under the numbers, too.
Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly.
Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification?
Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses on either Officer Tippit or-the President's assassination.
Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today?
Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date, November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard.
Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, G. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority.
Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the two women?
Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office for affidavits and identification.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to?
Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab.

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Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over?
Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that.
Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that?
Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime lab himself, which was initialled by both of us.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir?
Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any further witnesses.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or the Tippit murder?
Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your choice.
Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then?
Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department.