Testimony of William D. Crowe

Testimony Of William D. Crowe, Jr. The testimony of William D. Crowe, Jr., was taken at 2:30 p.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Mr. William D. Crowe, Jr., who also uses the professional or stage name of Bill DeMar.
Mr. Crowe, my name is Leon D. Hubert and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 issued by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Crowe, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald or the relationship that there might have been between Oswald and Ruby and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Crowe, you appear today, I believe, by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
Mr. CROWE. Friday; Friday, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 29th of May, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice you are looking at an envelope. Is that the envelope?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That it came in?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the post date on it?
Mr. CROWE. That is what I am looking for. It has no post date. The thing is blank.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of the letter itself?
Mr. CROWE. May 28; so it must have been the 29th.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you received it on the 29th, last Friday. Is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now would you please stand, sir, so I may administer the oath. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CROWE. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name for the record, please, sir?
Mr. CROWE. William D. Crowe, Jr.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crowe, I understand that you also have a stage or professional name that you have been using for some time and still do use, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that name?
Mr. CROWE. Bill DeMar.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have never actually legally changed your name from William Crowe to Bill DeMar, have you?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And by legally changed your name, I mean a court proceeding to change your name officially from Crowe to DeMar?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This is purely a stage name?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, Mr. DeMar?
Mr. CROWE. Right now at 90 West 34th Street, Bayonne, N.J.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. CROWE. Thirty-two.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been .married?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mind stating for the record who you were married to and when, and the date of the divorce?
Mr. CROWE. Her maiden name was Golden Thompson.
Mr. HUBERT. T-h-o-m-p-s-o-n; is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry this lady?
Mr. CROWE. November 22, 1959, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. And where were you married?
Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, Ind.
Mr. HUBERT. Evansville. Is your--
Mr. CROWE. Home town.
Mr. HUBERT. That is where you were born and educated and reared, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced?
Mr. CROWE. Around, I think it was around, February of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And where?
Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, Ind.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been married to anyone other than this lady?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?
Mr. CROWE. One.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of that child and how old is he?
Mr. CROWE. William D. Crowe, the 3d, and he is four and a half approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. Has your wife remarried?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; she has.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of her husband?
Mr. CROWE. Larry Kuence.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?
Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, I don't know the address for sure, on the north side some place.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr. CROWE. Entertainer.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that line of endeavor?
Mr. CROWE. Off and on for 15 years.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you were 32.
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you have been in the entertainment field since you were 17 years old?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What educational background do you have?
Mr. CROWE. High school graduate.
Mr. HUBERT. And immediately after leaving high school, I suppose you got into the entertainment business?
Mr. CROWE. No; well, yes. I started during right before the senior year, and then I went into the service for 3 years after high school.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. CROWE. In 1951.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was after you left the service that you entered the entertainment field?
Mr. CROWE. I continued with the entertainment field. I did it while I was in the service also.
Mr. HUBERT. You did it there also; I see. Have you ever had a partner in any of your acts or entertainment endeavors?
Mr. CROWE. No; not really.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us by way of description what sort of entertainment act you have done in the past?
Mr. CROWE. Primarily a ventriloquist; also do a little standup comedy, impressions.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you name for the record some of the places that you have played in--is that the professional term--or appeared in?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I have been over a great part of most of the United States and around Germany, and Western Canada and Eastern Canada. Like the T-Bone Supper Club in Wichita. Let's see, the Larue Supper Club in Indianapolis, the Orchid Club in Tulsa. Club dates in Seattle, Washington, Atlanta, Georgia, New York.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suppose that you have an agent, don't you, who does your booking for you?
Mr. CROWE. Several agents. Depending on what part of the country.
Mr. HUBERT. You are also a member of the--
Mr. CROWE. American Guild of Variety Artists.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose they have a record actually of every show or place that you have been don't they?
Mr. CROWE. I would imagine possibly they do.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you developed any particular specialty of late?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I have several gimmicks, I call them, that I feature in my vent act. That would be about all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you were playing at the Carousel Club in Dallas shortly before the death of President Kennedy, isn't that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been there before?
Mr. CROWE. Three times before.
Mr. HUBERT. You have. Would you state the times that you have been there, just roughly the approximate times, and the approximate length of each stay?
Mr. CROWE. Let's see, about April of 1962 I was there for 2 weeks, and then I was gone for about 7 weeks, came back for 3 weeks, and was out for maybe a month. Came back for 4 weeks, was gone for about a year, and 2 months, and came back for 6 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you come back to the Carousel the last time?
Mr. CROWE. About the 1st of November.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that booking done by yourself or some agent of yours?
Mr. CROWE. Well, it was more by myself but it was a club that belonged to an agent of mine so I paid him a commission to keep on the interest.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say the club belonged to an agent of yours you don't mean that he owned the club?
Mr. CROWE. No; the agent hooked it.
Mr. HUBERT. He owned the right to book you there, is that it?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you paid him a normal fee for booking at that place even though you arranged to go yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Between Jack Ruby and myself, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to go back to Jack Ruby's club?
Mr. CROWE. I didn't, but Jack can be pretty persuasive at times, and because I had been there so many times before, and the agent said that I would possibly go up to Kansas City but it wouldn't be for a week or more.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that agent?
Mr. CROWE. Wayne Keller in St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?
Mr. CROWE. St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. CROWE. A week's out of work you know, is a couple of hundred dollars, so--
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you at the time that he advised you of that?
Mr. CROWE. At the T-Bone in Wichita.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when he told you that he had another booking for you elsewhere, but it would be a week, what happened next?
Mr. CROWE. I told Jack I would go ahead and come down to his place.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack had contacted you at the T-Bone?
Mr. CROWE. He had called me at the T-Bone.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before? How long before you actually went to Jack's Carousel Club had he called you inviting you to come?
Mr. CROWE. Four days.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it arranged then as to how long your booking would be there?
Mr. CROWE. No; nothing definite. I said 4 or 5 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no written contract, did you?
Mr. CROWE. I don't recall whether I wrote the contract before I went down or after I got there.
Mr. HUBERT. But there was a written contract?
Mr. CROWE. There was a contract, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would have a copy of that? Would you?
Mr. CROWE. I would have a copy of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have it in fact?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; but not on me.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose it is a standard contract?
Mr. CROWE. Standard AGVA.
Mr. HUBERT. What is it?
Mr. CROWE. American Guild of Variety Artists.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the word you used?
Mr. CROWE. Standard AGVA.
Mr. HUBERT. Standard AGVA form. What was the agreed price?
Mr. CROWE. $182.50.
Mr. HUBERT. Per week?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin?
Mr. CROWE. It was about 2 weeks before that eventful weekend. That was on the 22d.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day of the week that you began. Perhaps it would help you if you would look at this calendar of 1963, which--do you have a calendar of 1963?

Mr. CROWE. I am not sure, I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what day of the week you would normally begin?
Mr. CROWE. Monday would be, the 11th.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you began on Monday, November 11, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the fact that it was Armed Services Day or Armistice Day, as it used to be called, assist your recollection that it was that day? I mean, is there any doubt about the fact--
Mr. CROWE. Was that Armistice Day?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, November 11.
Mr. CROWE. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it this way, is there any doubt in your mind that that is the day you started, on the 11th?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How many telephone calls do you suppose you got from Ruby in connection with this last engagement?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, maybe three.
Mr. HUBERT. Those would have been to the T-Bone Hotel at Wichita?
Mr. CROWE. No; there was no T-Bone Hotel.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the place?
Mr. CROWE. The T-Bone Club. It was at the motel where I was staying.
Mr. HUBERT. What motel was that?
Mr. CROWE. I think it was "El" something, I don't recall. Right around the corner there. It began with an "E".
Mr. HUBERT. It was near the T-Bone Club, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right. E1 Morocco maybe, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. When did the engagement which began on November 11, end in fact?
Mr. CROWE. Right before Christmas, which was about, let's see--do you have a calendar again?
Mr. HUBERT. Here is a calendar of 1963 again. Let me put it this way: Did your engagement last for the entire period that you contracted for?
Mr. CROWE. Longer.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. And your thought is that you left on the 21st of December?
Mr. CROWE. Twenty-first.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us in general what contacts you had with Jack Ruby during the period of November 11 through the 22d or the 22d of November, to the day that the President was shot?
Mr. CROWE. Well, outside of seeing him in the club when he was there, and going to breakfast with him once in awhile after working hours, that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas?
Mr. CROWE. At that time I was at the Palomino Hotel on Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you choose that place yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I had stayed there previously.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from your statement that your contacts with Ruby were limited to a few breakfasts that you had with him?
Mr. CROWE. That is about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, I suppose it would have been simply business conversations, or were there any business conversations?
Mr. CROWE. The only thing, about the only thing Jack ever spoke of was the club, one club or the other.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on these occasions when you went to breakfast, what did he discuss, if you recall?
Mr. CROWE. Business, money, the show itself, the band, the girls.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, when you say breakfast, I assume you mean the meal that you took after the club closed about 2 o'clock in the morning, is that correct.
Mr. CROWE. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you normally go?
Mr. CROWE. There was no normal, whatever suited his fancy.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you the twistboard operation that he was interested in?
Mr. CROWE. No; he mentioned, I know he had one there that he was giving away as a prize.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not the master of ceremonies, were you?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were. In addition to the act you had, you were also master of ceremonies?
Mr. CROWE. I introduced the other acts, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you did some acting yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the names of some of the other employees or performers at the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. You want the performers or the employees?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, both. If you remember their names.
Mr. CROWE. Let's see, at that time--at the time--
Mr. HUBERT. Of this last engagement.
Mr. CROWE. At the assassination because they had changed. At the time I came there and the time I left there were different ones.
Mr. HUBERT. They changed just within that 11-day period?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us those who were there when you first came and when they left and then which others came on afterwards?
Mr. CROWE. Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she remain the entire time you were there?
Mr. CROWE. No, no; she left a week after I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know. why?
Mr. CROWE. No; her and Jack got into it is all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that she had some sort of an argument?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jada there then?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the T-Bone Club?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who I mean when I say Jada, do you know who that person is?
Mr. CROWE. I met her once but I have never worked with her.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?
Mr. CROWE. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she then working for Ruby?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall when you me her?
Mr. CROWE. Around November 30, maybe.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mr. CROWE. At the same time I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. 1963?
Mr. CROWE. 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. You met her after the death of the President and after the death of Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?
Mr. CROWE. I don't remember the name of the club. It begins with an "M," upstairs private club, about 3 blocks from the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. She was playing there?
Mr. CROWE. No; she was shooting a film there.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a film was that?
Mr. CROWE. A film that Diamond Pictures was making.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the subject of it was?
Mr. CROWE. A stripper in Dallas, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you part of that film?
Mr. CROWE. I did a relief, a comedy relief segment.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about the 30th of November, you say?
Mr. CROWE. Approximately, I don't know for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. It lasted only a few days, I take it?
Mr. CROWE. A couple of days I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not met her before?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to the President's visit to Dallas, do you recall having either discussed with Ruby the forthcoming visit or heard Ruby say anything concerning it?
Mr. CROWE. No; and the time I had known him I had never recalled ever having heard him discuss politics or anybody in it.
Mr. HUBERT. That means over this 2 or 3 years you knew him?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if I can ask a question here.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish this phase of the questioning. What was the general format of the show during the period from November 11 until the 22d, I believe. Will you describe to us briefly just how it operated, and what went on?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I came on stage and opened the show.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of opening music, for instance?
Mr. CROWE. I think we tried a show tune song but I never could sing so didn't do it. I always backed out every time I got on stage, I wouldn't do it. I would start into it maybe and then I would quit and fade out or something, I would chicken out.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the band, did the band play any particular type of music to start off the show or to end it?
Mr. CROWE. Particular? Just, you know, introduction music.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did they play any type of patriotic music?
Mr. CROWE. Patriotic music?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. By patriotic I mean music like America or--
Mr. CROWE. No, no; it is a jazz combo. They wouldn't play--
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President and where were you?
Mr. CROWE. I was in the Palomino Hotel and I first heard of it about 4 or so, 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time?
Mr. CROWE. That is when I wroke up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear it, did someone tell you?
Mr. CROWE. On transistor radio.
Mr. HUBERT. No one had called you?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after hearing it?
Mr. CROWE. I did what other people did, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is what?
Mr. CROWE. Cried.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to anyone?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone? Put it this way, who was .the first person you saw or spoke to after that?
Mr. CROWE. Well, let's see. I woke up, turned on the radio, heard the news. After composure, I think I went down to the shopping center, had a bite to eat, came back, and got dressed to go down to the club and then didn't feel 1ike working, I didn't think I should, but nobody had called me not to, and I got down there, and there was a sign on it, out front, you know, says "closed."
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, about 9, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. No one from the club had called you at all?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; Andrew Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not call you?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did not?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So you just went on your way, I take it?
Mr. CROWE. If they had called me I wouldn't have gotten dressed and went down there. No; I went down there and they had a sign on the front that said closed and I was relieved and glad. I didn't think they should be open anyway. I drove around the block and the other two clubs were closed. So I went back home.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, go to bed?
Mr. CROWE. I think I sat and read maybe.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you see anyone or talk to anyone after returning to your apartment?
Mr. CROWE. I don't know whether it was that nigh,t or the night after I called a friend of mine's house, Tom Palmer. I spoke with his wife about the incident.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack Ruby at any time between the assassination of the President, and the time Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. I never spoke to or seen Jack Ruby again from Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not talk to him by phone?
Mr. CROWE. No; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know George Senator?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Breck Wall.
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was staying at the Adolphus?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Joe Peterson?
Mr. CROWE. He was a musician, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you knew Armstrong. Did you know Larry Crafard?
Mr. CROWE. I don't recall the name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a young man that seemed to be working around the club there and sleeping on the premises?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him, by what name did you known him?
Mr. CROWE. I don't recall, I believe his name was Larry. I didn't know what his last name was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see or speak to any one of those persons during the period from the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. Who all did you call off again?
Mr. HUBERT. George Senator, Ralph Paul, Breck Wall, Joe Peterson, Andy Armstrong, and Larry Crafard?
Mr. CROWE. Andrew Armstrong is about the only one I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you talk to him?
Mr. CROWE. Let's see, I called--maybe that wasn't--Saturday, Sunday morning, there wasn't much time, it must have been after Oswald was shot before I even spoke to Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it then, there was no contact of any sort whatsoever between you and any of those persons I mentioned, and I will mention them again so that the record can be straight: George Senator, Ralph Paul, Breck Wall, Joe Peterson, and Larry Crafard, there was no contact between you and Andrew Armstrong, no contact between you whatsoever, between the time the President was shot and the time Oswald was shot, of any sort whatsoever?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you learn that the show would not go on on Saturday?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I didn't figure it would go on on Saturday. I wasn't going to go down there until they called me, or somebody called me, and they knew where I was, and if I did not get a call, why I wasn't going.
Mr. HUBERT. When was payday, when were you supposed to be paid?
Mr. CROWE. Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any inquiry Sunday about your pay?
Mr. CROWE. No; there was nobody to ask.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that you did speak to Armstrong. When did you do so?
Mr. CROWE. Monday; I believe Monday evening he called me on the phone and told me to come to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Come to work on Monday evening?
Mr. CROWE. I didn't figure I would go in until Tuesday, I figured they would be out for a while. I think there was something in the Saturday paper that Jack Ruby had put, stated immediately that the club would be closed for 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Eva Grant?
Mr. CROWE. The name sounds familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Well--
Mr. CROWE. Isn't that Jack Ruby's sister?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; it is. Do you know her?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; in a way. I met her.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to the Vegas Club?
Mr. CROWE. Vegas Club; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been there?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever play there?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As an artist?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go there during the last engagement we have been talking about which commenced on November 11?
Mr. CROWE. Yes, yes; I did. About the week before, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go there on more than one occasion or just once?
Mr. CROWE. Maybe twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you go there with?
Mr. CROWE. Jack and a couple of girls from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the girls' names?
Mr. CROWE. Little Lynn and there was another one, it is a redhead. Very good dancer, too. There was a joke about her name, something to do with Christmas.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be one occasion. Do you remember who you went with on the other?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I always went with Jack but I don't know whether there was anybody else. there probably was, but I don't recall who was along the second time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first made any announcement concoring the possibility, at least, that Oswald was in the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. Sunday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you make the observation to and how did it come about?
Mr. CROWE. To a television reporter, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?
Mr. CROWE. A newspaperman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the names of these people?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you approach them or did they approach you?
Mr. CROWE. Both. I had just parked my car at the garage right aside of the club because I went down there to see about my equipment which was in the club and I had known, from things I had heard, Jack had done what he did. I was concerned about my equipment, you know, whether I would get it out.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that you went to the club?
Mr. CROWE. Around noon, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be about a half hour after Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. About a half hour after Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear that Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. I was in the office of the motel and it was on television.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Then you became concerned about your equipment and you went immediately down?
Mr. CROWE. Down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think it was about noon when you got there. Did you have a key to get in?
Mr. CROWE. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get in?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I don't know. I had called down there, and the line was busy, so I figured there was somebody there. But when I--
Mr. HUBERT. Did you knock when you went there?
Mr. CROWE. No; I never even got that far.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened?
Mr. CROWE. When I drove into the garage a newspaperman pulled up in front.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the Nichols Garage, the garage right next to--
Mr. CROWE. Right next, I don't know what the name is.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hugh Reed who ran the place? All right, sir, you drove into the garage?
Mr. CROWE. And a newspaperman drove up front, and television drove up across the street, and the newspaperman, I think, and somebody else, and they started to ask the garage attendant if he knew where Jack Ruby lived, and I came forward and I said I knew where he lived, at least I thought I did, but I didn't know he had moved, so I didn't know actually.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you gave them an address?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I didn't know the address but I knew how to get there.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. CROWE. And I went out with some newspaper reporter in his Volkswagen and drove out to the apartment out by the zoo where he used to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you found he was not there?
Mr. CROWE. Not there, he had moved.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mr. CROWE. I went to the television station, the newspaperman drove me by the television station, and the television man who followed us out, wanted me to stop by and talk to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did the television man want to talk to you about, do you know? Or what did you talk to him about?
Mr. CROWE. Well, they had asked me who I was, and what I had to do with the club. I told them my name, what my job was, and I had mentioned that it was quite a series of coincidences as far as I was concerned because I had been in Washington during the inaugural of the President and then being in Dallas during the assassination of the President, and then having what I had thought or recalled, to have possibly seen Oswald in the club the week before and then working for the man who shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, who did you mention that series of coincidences to?
Mr. CROWE. The newspaperman and the television man.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to the newspaperman first when you were driving out to what you thought was Ruby's house?
Mr. CROWE. No. Another newspaperman, the one who drove up in the car, I mean the radio man.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you had left the place that you thought was Ruby's house. In other words, what I am trying to get is the time that you first mentioned this series of coincidences, and the person to whom you mentioned it?
Mr. CROWE. At the front door of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before you left to go to the apartment?
Mr. CROWE. Before I left to go.
Mr. HUBERT. Did--
Mr. CROWE. To me it was just a series of coincidences, I never even thought anything about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reaction of the newspaperman when you told him that you thought you had seen Ruby--I mean, Oswald in Ruby's club?
Mr. CROWE. Well, they got all excited and picked that out and started snowbailing it, and that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What are the facts concerning your possibly having seen Oswald in that club?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn't say there was any, just facts. Like I stated before, the face seemed familiar as some faces do, and I had associated him with a patron that I had seen in the club a week before. That was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't there some aspect of the story that had to do with a memory act that was supposed to be your specialty or one of your specialties?
Mr. CROWE. Well, it is one of the bits that I did to fill time, but--
Mr. HUBERT. What are the facts concerning that?
Mr. CROWE. They asked me in what--how I had seen him in the club, and I said I thought I had used him as one of the people that was--that I would use him in my memory bit.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your memory bit. Would you describe it, please, sir?
Mr. CROWE. I have 20 people cross the front, those that I can see by the stage there, and call out an object and then I have them raise their hand at random and I call the object back to them. That was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a gimmick to this or does it--
Mr. CROWE. Association.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is a special form of training; do you have to train yourself to associate?
Mr. CROWE. To a small degree.
Mr. HUBERT. What mental process do you actually go through actually to accomplish this?
Mr. CROWE. What system do I use?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CROWE. Or how is it done?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I don't want to get your professional secrets.
Mr. CROWE. That is what you are asking. [Laughter.]
Mr. HUBERT. On the other hand, what I am trying to get at is whether or not your memory bit, as you call it, would enable you to recognize or remember faces more than the ordinary person?
Mr. CROWE. No. No, my memory actually is no better, maybe it is as good as the ordinary persons. I know the system which is Spencer Thorton's to use in this memory bit and I concentrate on using it, and after it is over I have forgotten.
Mr. HUBERT. I am sure you recall that the press shortly after 24th played up, snowballed, I think perhaps, as you called it, the fact that your memory act or memory gimmick as you now call it, gave you a special expertise, if it is called that, or special ability, in remembering faces that you had seen. Is that a fact or not? I mean, is it a fact that your act does give you that extra abnormal ability or not?
Mr. CROWE. No; it does not give me anything special. Using a gimmick or a method to do the memory stunt and that is it They built up the memory thing and they built up the bit of having seen Oswald in there, and I never stated definitely, positively, and they said that I did, and all in all, what they had in the paper was hardly even close to what I told them.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell them?
Mr. CROWE. Exactly as I have just stated to you.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know that I followed you about what exactly you remembered about Oswald. I think perhaps we can better repeat it then. What did you, in fact, irrespective of what you stated to them., what did you, in fact, remember then about seeing Oswald in Ruby's club?
Mr. CROWE. I had--it seemed to me that his face was familiar, and I had possibly seen him in the club the week before and used him in association with the memory routine that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You told that to the press?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you told it actually as one of four events which you have described as a series of coincidences?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that later you were shown a picture of Oswald, were you not?
Mr. CROWE. I don't recall that. I had seen a picture in the newspaper. But I don't recall being shown a picture.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time, didn't they display a picture of Oswald to you?
Mr. CROWE. They may have, I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your recollection concerning the identification of Oswald in Ruby's club was when you spoke to the FBI and the agents of the Secret Service?
Mr. CROWE. That I had thought possibly I had seen Oswald the week before.
Mr. HUBERT. By the week before you mean the week commencing on the 11th?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you now or have you ever been able to fix the time of that possible event more closely than just simply the week before?
Mr. CROWE. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first occur to you that you had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. When I saw his picture in the paper Saturday or Sunday morning, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey your impression to anyone?
Mr. CROWE. Not before the radio newsman in front of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why you did not?
Mr. CROWE. I had seen no one before then. Hardly anybody to speak to.
Mr. HUBERT. I am thinking from this point of view. You tell me that you had on Saturday come to some tentative conclusion that possibly you had seen his man in the Carousel Club the week before.
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that that information could be valuable to the police?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you spoke to no one at all from the time you woke up on the afternoon of the 22d at 4 o'clock, until you met these radio people in front of the club?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, yes, I had been out at Tom Palmer's house that Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the only person you saw or conversed with?
Mr. CROWE. Actually, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him that you had thought you had seen or it was possible that you had seen Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why not, because may I suggest to you that it would have been quite a topic of conversation. Also the coincidences that you mentioned were almost there at that time?
Mr. CROWE. I never drew up the series of coincidences until Sunday morning, because the fourth coincidence didn't happen until then.
Mr. HUBERT. But the third one had that is to say--I guess it is the second one, the shooting of the President by Oswald.
Mr. CROWE. Yes; which was only two.
Mr. HUBERT. And your recognition that you had seen Oswald or thought you had, or it was possible that you had, in the club the week before.
Mr. CROWE. And I never put them together until Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. But you tell us now that you have a distinct recollection of having thought to yourself when you saw Oswald, Oswald's picture in the Paper that "I have seen this man and I saw him, I think, in the Carousel Club last week." Although you didn't convey that to anybody?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That actually occurred, that thought went through your mind?
Mr. CROWE. I would say so, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it at all possible that it first crystallized in your mind as a conscious thought when you were speaking to the radio people?
Mr. CROWE. I thought of it the whole series of coincidences, and all of it together when I was driving from my hotel to the club that Sunday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean to tell me then that prior to that time--
Mr. CROWE. I never gave it much thought.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not specifically thought that Oswald might have been in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Specifically, I never gave it too much thought. The face was familiar, and that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that if you had actually thought on Saturday that you had seen the killer of the President in the Carousel Club the week before that you would, might, have mentioned that fact to Mr. Palmer whom you visited on Saturday night?
Mr. CROWE. Not necessarily. We discussed the assassination of the President in brief, and then they taught me how to play poker and we didn't talk about it. I didn't care to talk about it. It was too unpleasant for me.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether or not this thought that you ultimately expressed to the newspapermen shortly after noon, I take it, on the 24th, whether that thought actually existed as a conscious mental process prior to that time or not?
Mr. CROWE. Not strongly, no. Just as a passing thought on and off, only after I had heard that Ruby had shot Oswald and I started summing up the coincidences, you know, and thinking of Oswald's picture in the paper, and seeing it again, and putting it all together.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call a man in Evansville, Ind., I think, a friend of yours on a newspaper that day?
Mr. CROWE. David Hoy.
Mr. HUBERT. The day before?
Mr. CROWE. No; I said David Hoy.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that?
Mr. CROWE. Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you told the newspaper people about the coincidences?
Mr. CROWE. Before.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from?
Mr. CROWE. The hotel, I mean the motel. The motel I had just moved into that noon.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you saw, actually witnessed the television film of Ruby shooting Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. No; I never said that.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out?
Mr. CROWE. I was in the office checking into the motel when it came on TV and I had heard it.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. When did you speak to Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, a couple minutes right after.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do so?
Mr. CROWE. Well, because he was in news and a friend of mine, you know, and I figured he would be interested in knowing if he had heard over the teletype or something.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the crystallization of these four coincidences came sooner than the time that you met the radio people in front of the club?
Mr. CROWE. That is what I said. From the time I was driving from the motel to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And you placed the call from the motel?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you called Hoy prior to?
Mr. CROWE. The crystallization of these ideas and coincidences.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you call him then?
Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time you told me the series of coincidences had not yet crystallized because they crystallized you said a moment ago after this call?
Mr. CROWE. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then what was the purpose of calling Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had Just been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. And solely for that purpose?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact though, you did mention to Hoy, didn't you, that you thought you had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Not on that call.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not?
Mr. CROWE. Not until after. I called after that. I talked to him about three or four times that day.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you talked to him three or four times after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The first call, therefore, within a couple of minutes after you heard the news on TV was simply to advise him that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at that time tell him that you thought you might have seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your purpose, you stated, for calling Hoy the first time then was simply to advise him of a fact, to wit, that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it to advise him of the fact or to converse with him about it?
Mr. CROWE. Well, him being a newsman you know call him and tell him about it if he hadn't heard about it already.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't it occur to you that this news event was going all over the country simultaneously?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I knew it was in Dallas but I didn't know whether it was in Evansville or not.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Whether he was watching it on television or whether he was even watching television.
Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Very well.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever called him before to give him news of this sort?
Mr. CROWE. No; I never had any news of this sort to give him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you childhood friends or something of that sort?
Mr. CROWE. No; I met him--I knew of him and he knew of me but we actually really first met about 1958, I suppose.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite certain that you did not speak to Hoy on the first call about your impression that Oswald might have been in the Carousel the week prior?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that it is possible that you may have told him that on the very first call?
Mr. CROWE. No; I mean no, I had not mentioned that to him on the first call. I have heard David Hoy state to others in front of me that I was the one that called him to tell him about Jack Ruby and what he was like and working with him. But that is all he has ever said. He has never said that I had called him and told him that I had seen Oswald in the club the week before, because I hadn't. I hadn't mentioned that to him until later on in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man by the name of Dale Burgess on that day who was with the radio station, I believe, or some news media in Evansville?
Mr. CROWE. I don't recall the name. I spoke to a newspaper man in Evansville.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CROWE. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. CROWE. That same Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the time?
Mr. CROWE. No; I don't. It would have had to have been, well, in the late afternoon, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Evansville on central standard time or eastern time?
Mr. CROWE. Central.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the time of your second call to Mr. Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, relative to the events which were taking place, considering that I think you said it was about noon, well, it was about 11:30 when you first called him and then you went down to the club--
Mr. CROWE. And then went to the--
Mr. HUBERT. Were interviewed by the newsmen and went to what you thought was Ruby's house and came back.
Mr. CROWE. Yes; and then to the television station.
Mr. HUBERT. Television station and made a statement?
Mr. CROWE. Was interviewed there, and then went back to the motel I guess, so that would be--
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that you called Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. I guess it would be about maybe three.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of calling Hoy the second time?
Mr. CROWE. To---I don't remember whether I did call him or he called me. I know I spoke to him. Anyway, I told him about the series of coincidences.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you had told him about that?
Mr. CROWE. That was the first time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you spoke to the other newsman from Evansville whose name you couldn't remember?
Mr. CROWE. I would say before.
Mr. HUBERT. Then after you had talked to Hoy the second time is when you spoke to the newsman from Evansville?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I think he had the newsman call me.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are not certain whether Hoy called you or you called Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. No. There were about 3 or 4 calls going out--
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present, where did this second call take place from, where were you when you made the second call?
Mr. CROWE. Right at the motel.
Mr. HUBERT. You say there were some more calls that day between you and Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What were they about?
Mr. CROWE. He had called me once, and said that the American News, I think, or the American Broadcasting, the word American comes to my mind, had suggested that he tell me to make myself scarce or to hide out or to move and let my whereabouts not be known.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why you should take such action?
Mr. CROWE. He said that it had been expressed to him that my life would be in danger.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he thought or he had heard that your life might be in danger?
Mr. CROWE. Because I had mentioned about seeing Oswald in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say who would be interested at all in killing you for that reason?
Mr. CROWE. He didn't know. He was just expressing what he said he had heard from another news media. And maybe they were thought friends of Jack's, you know, or I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, you made, I think, a previous statement both to the FBI and--I think you gave an affidavit in Dallas---to the Secret Service attested by a notary public--no, by Mr. John Joe Howlett, special agent of the Secret Service. For purposes of identification, I am going to mark these two documents which I am going to Show you in a moment as follows to wit, first of all, the FBI report dated November 24, or rather which purports to be a report on an interview with you on November 24th by FBI Agents Robert Lish and Emory Morton. For the purpose of identification I am going to mark this document on the right-hand margin as follows: "Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.", signing my name below that, the document consisting of one page only. And another document Which purports to be an affidavit given by you on November 25 at 1 p.m. attested by John Joe Howlett, special agent of the U.S. Secret Service with Pauline Churchill as a witness. For purposes of identifi cation I am marking that document as follows, to wit, "Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.", and I am signing my name below on that.

(The documents referred to were marked Crowe Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 for identification.)

Mr. Crowe, I wish you would read both of these documents with this in mind, their I am going to ask you in a moment whether these documents represent the truth or whether there are any changes or corrections that should be made in them, and so forth. So if you would look at them and you can make notes, if you wish on this pad or just make little check marks if you see anything that represents what is now considered by you to be not true. We will go into those matters after you have had a chance to read those documents.
Mr. CROWE. Those are it; no changes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have examined the two documents which have been marked for identification as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 relating to your deposition; and I understand you now to say that those documents represent the truth as you know it, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Exhibit No. 2 is your own affidavit.
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume that you signed it--I mean you read it before you signed it?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 1 on the other hand is a report of an interview which you have not seen before, I take it, and I specifically ask you if such is a correct representation of the inquiry?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; these are the questions, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us what is your present recollection concerning whether Oswald was in the Carousel Club during the week preceding the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. Would you state the first part of the question again?
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us your present recollection concerning whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Carousel Club on the week preceding the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. From what I recall, the face appeared familiar and I possibly saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club the week before.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the lighting conditions in the club such that you could have seen him?
Mr. CROWE. To some extent. If he was sitting right at the foot of the stage.
Mr. HUBERT. If not, that is if he were not sitting right at the foot of the stage, then what?
Mr. CROWE. Then I wouldn't have used him and I wouldn't have seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your act required that you use the people up front in the first place?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And secondly, the lighting was such that you couldn't have seen him if he were not in the first row; right?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that whomever you saw you thought and think might have a resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald must have been in the first row?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I might say this: Bill Willis, the drummer in the band at the club, said he seemed to remember Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in the front row on Thursday night right in the corner of the Stage and the runway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this from Willis himself?
Mr. CROWE. Right. But I wouldn't make that statement myself. But then I don't .recall the night or the exact spot.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like to Show you a number of pictures which I am not going to give identifying numbers for this deposition since they have already been given identification numbers, but, for example, I now hand to you four pictures, the first two that I am going to call out being really a series of pictures--no, the first one, I am sorry, being a series of pictures, and the other three being individual pictures. These have previously been identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5206, and 5205 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, taken in Washington, D.C., on April 10, 1964.
I am going to ask you to look at these pictures and see if in any of them you see anybody that resembles the man that you may have seen there and who might look like Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. CROWE. When were these taken?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know. I would just like to ask you to examine them and see if there is anybody in there that looks like the man you used in your memory act and who was in the front row, and who you think looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. And whom you said may have been in the Carousel Club during the week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have said no after examining the picture which has been previously identified as No. 5212 of the deposition of Crafard. Now, you are looking at the picture which has been identified as Exhibit No. 5221 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you the same question as to that picture?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, your answer no is in response to the question relative to Exhibit No. 5221, deposition of Crafard. Would you look at the next picture, please, which has been identified previously as Exhibit No. 5206--
Mr. CROWE. And all backs of heads.
Mr. HUBERT. In the deposition of Crafard. I am sorry, I didn't get your answer?
Mr. CROWE. I say all backs of heads. He kind of favors it.
Mr. HUBERT. You are saying "he" and pointing. To whom are you pointing in the picture?
Mr. CROWE. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean describe it by way of position.
Mr. CROWE. Well, he is standing on stage.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say he is almost in the middle of that picture?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the microphone is right behind him?
Mr. CROWE. Right behind him.
Mr. HUBERT. He seems to have his sleeves halfway rolled up his arm?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; got a cigarette in his right hand.
Mr. HUBERT. That he seems to be leaning over a bit?
Mr. CROWE. And leaning forward.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that person resemble the person that you think you saw in the Carousel Club the week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn't say that. I say he favors.
Mr. HUBERT. Favors whom?
Mr. CROWE. Oswald. But I don't recall him as being the one that I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. You think the man you just talked about in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 is not the man that you have been referring to as possibly Oswald in your previous statements to the FBI, to the press, and so forth?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But that he does bear some resemblance to him?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I could be wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at--
Mr. CROWE. Oh--
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 5205 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you to examine that picture with the same purpose in mind.
Mr. CROWE. Yes, the second person in the foreground has some similarity to Oswald, doesn't he?
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the man who is just left of center in the lower quadrant of that photo?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. As to whom there is pointing a little pen written arrow; is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your comment as to that man, with reference to the possibility that he is the man you saw a week before the President was shot, in the Carousel Club, and who took some part in your memory act?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn't say that he was the man I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you have to make about him then?
Mr. CROWE. He does favor Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that your comment as to the man in the picture identified as Exhibit No. 5205 is substantially the same as your comment made with reference to the man in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it stronger or weaker, that is to say, do you think the resemblance to Oswald is stronger in one picture than it is in the other?
Mr. CROWE. I would say stronger in Crafard Exhibit No. 5205. He is not smiling.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the man you have pointed out in Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206, do you recall ever having seen him in the Carousel before?
Mr. CROWE. As to him personally, I couldn't say for sure. The clothes are not familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed who ,took part in your memory act that you think might have been Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. I have no idea as to how he was dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. Your statements concerning the possibility it was Oswald therefore was based entirely on the facial--
Mr. CROWE. The face alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw Oswald in person, that is to say unless it was Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I never met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Your identification of the man in the club and the possibility he was Oswald is based, therefore, upon pictures which appeared in the paper and which the police exhibited to you, or the FBI, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now or have you ever had any recollection at any time of the position of the person who might have been Oswald in your memory act relative to other people. Do you understand what I mean? You know he had to be in the first row. Have you any recollection or have you ever had any, as to whether he was center, the left, or the right or what?
Mr. CROWE. No; they have three runways running out from the stage, and the customers are seated along and around the runways, and they can either be alone or with somebody, you would never know, you had no way of telling.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recollect whether the man who might have been Oswald was alone or was with someone else?
Mr. CROWE. No; you can't tell the way they are seated.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, with reference to those four pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5205, and 5206 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, are you able to state that you recognize those pictures generally as being the interior of the Carousel Club?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present thought as to the possibility that the man that you had previously spoken about in the pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206 of the deposition of Crafard, may have been the man that you stated was a part of your memory act a week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. It is a possibility.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is a greater possibility that from the pictures you have seen of Oswald that it was Oswald than that it was the man in the pictures, Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206?
Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn't say it was greater or any less.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, having seen the pictures of Oswald and having seen the pictures of the man in five, Exhibits Nos. 5206 and 5205, your thought is that it could have been either?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That you do not favor the identification of one over the other in terms of strength of identification?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any sums of money or any kind of recompense for any story or appearance you may have made concerning this matter of your having possibly seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. Definitely not.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Crowe, that you would like to add?
Mr. CROWE. I was just taking a breath to say that the only reason why Oswald was mentioned and thought of was because of the possibility of being or that I thought he was one of a part of a series of coincidences. And the coincidences was the only thing that I had in mind.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Now, Mr. Crowe, neither I nor Mr. Griffin have ever interviewed you before the commencement of this deposition, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. That is correct, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say all of the examination or conversation or contact between us has been in this room and while the reporter was recording it, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.