TESTIMONY OF DOYLE E. LANE
The testimony of Doyle E. Lane was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Lane, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the resolution, I am authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Lane. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the Lane, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Particularly the sending of the Western Union telegram. Now, Mr. Lane, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter sent to you, I believe, by Mr. J. Lee Rankin.
Mr. LANE. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received by you prior to 3 days from today, was it not?
Mr. LANE. It was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right Now, will you stand, sir, and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LANE. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please.
Mr. LANE. Doyle E. Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Mr. LANE. Thirty-five.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. LANE. Dallas, Tex. 6549 Lake Circle.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. LANE. Clerk, Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. LANE. Eleven years.
Mr. HUBERT. What particular function do you have, as clerk?
Mr. LANE. Well, I'm a senior delivery clerk is what I am.
Mr. HUBERT. What particular office do you work for?
Mr. LANE. Work for the office at 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the main office of the Western Union here?
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Mr. LANE. Yes; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the morning of November 24, 1963?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man by the name of Jack Ruby that day?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?
Mr. LANE. I had known him through patronage.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he came into the Western Union office that day you recognized him as Jack Ruby, a man with whom you had done Western Union telegraph business?
Mr. LANE. When he handed me the money order. I did not see him come in. do not know when he came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you just state in your own words what transpired between you and Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24, 1963?
Mr. LANE. Well, he came to the counter and handed me the money order to be sent. I rated the money order and put the necessary transmission marks on it. Wrote out a receipt for the money he handed me and I believe it was $30, to pay for the money order. I handed him back his receipt and his change. He turned around and walked out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you saw him, therefore, is when he came up to the counter with a completed--partially completed form for the transmission of money by Western Union?
Mr. LANE. That is the first I had seen him that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you don't know how long he was in the office?
Mr. LANE. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time he came up.
Mr. LANE. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a public telephone available to anyone who is in the lobby?
Mr. LANE. Yes, there is.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him use the telephone?
Mr. LANE. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. On that morning, was there any kind of radio, or TV in the Western Union office, whereby a person in that office could have heard the news concerning the pending transfer of Oswald from the city hall to the county jail?
Mr. LANE. Not in the office; no.
Mr. HUBERT. No one had a small radio or transistor?
Mr. LANE. The messenger boy had a transistor, but he was out delivering, and he did not get back until 10 or 15 minutes after that.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no radio or television audible or visible to anyone in the Western Union office at the time Jack Ruby was them?
Mr. LANE. No, there was not.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Lane, I am marking two documents, which have already been identified by Mr. W. W. Semingsen, president--vice president of the Western Union Telegram Co., when his deposition was taken by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, a member of the staff of the President's Commission. On the first document have marked "Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5118, Deposition of Doyle Lane." I have placed my name under this language. It purports to be a photostatic copy of the original which Mr. Semingsen produced at his deposition. In order that the record may show that you and I are both talking about the same document, I ask you to put your name below mine on this document. Now, I am marking the other document as follows: "Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5119, Deposition of Doyle Lane," and signing my name on that, and ask you to put your name on it so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, I ask you to look at Exhibit 5118, and state for the record what that document is.
Mr. LANE. This is a money order application filed to send money. $25. Karen Bennett, Fort Worth, Tex., from Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there are several handwritings on that, and, of course, you will identify your own in a moment. Can you state for the record
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what handwriting was on that, or what was on that document at the time it was handed to you by Ruby?
Mr. LANE. "25.00 Karen Bennett. Will call. Fort Worth. Jack Ruby."
Mr. HUBERT. That all seems to be printed?
Mr. LANE. That is printed; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby write it out?
Mr. LANE. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did hand it to you in that form?
Mr. LANE. He did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you money at the same time?
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how much?
Mr. LANE. $30.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he took it out of his wallet, or a roll of money, or what?
Mr. LANE. He took it from several bills in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. What denominations were the bills that he handed to you?
Mr. LANE. A $20 and a $10 bill.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you state what you did with reference to this transaction?
Mr. LANE. You mean my markings?
Mr. HUBERT. Your markings and your actions, yes.
Mr. LANE. Well, when he handed me this I rated the money order.
Mr. HUBERT. You did what?
Mr. LANE. The charges.
Mr. HUBERT. Rated, [spelling] R-a-t-e-d?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What does "rated" mean?
Mr. LANE. It is actual money order charges that we charge to transmit this money to its destination.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that rating process indicated by you on that Exhibit 5118?
Mr. LANE. Yes; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. LANE. In that top right-hand corner.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that in?
Mr. LANE. That is my handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. What figures are you talking about?
Mr. LANE. "$25.55, the $1.20, and 12 cents tax. $26.87."
Mr. HUBERT. So, you did give him change?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the printed message there are the words, "Fort Worth," scratched out, and something, who wrote that?
Mr. LANE. I wrote that. It was spelled wrong to begin with, and I wrote that for this purpose. We have to have a full destination in the body of a money order. He just used Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that you scratched. out the "F." W-o-r-t-h, and then wrote in your own handwriting Fort Worth, Tex.?
Mr. LANE. Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. And you identify your own handwriting, sir?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice in the bottom right-hand corner of Exhibit 5118, the words and figures as follows: "1312 1/2 Commerce." Whose handwriting is that?
Mr. LANE. It is mine.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information?
Mr. LANE. From Mr. Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. You asked him?
Mr. LANE. I said, "Your address?" And he gave me his address.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there apparently is a time stamp on the top of this document that says, "1963, November 24. a.m. 11:17." Would you explain what that is?
Mr. LANE. That is the time that money order was accepted for transmission at the counter.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, explain when and how that stamp is placed--placed upon that document?
Mr. LANE. This stamp was placed here when I handed Mr. Ruby back his receipt for his money and his change, because in our language that is the accepting a money order for transmission at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was not stamped when Mr. Ruby first came to begin the transaction?
Mr. LANE. No; it was not.
Mr. HUBERT. It was required that you do what you said you have done concerning the document, to make the correction about "Fort Worth," to do the rating?
Mr. LANE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you write out the address at the bottom?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And to make the change and give it to him?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the 11:17, therefore, represents the moment when the transaction was over?
Mr. LANE. When it is completed.
Mr. HUBERT. And actually, it could have begun a few moments or minutes before?
Mr. LANE. A minute or so.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish you to explain for the record what kind of a time-clock this is. And what steps are taken by the Western Union Co. locally and nationally to assure the accuracy of that timeclock?
Mr. LANE. This timeclock is set up on a national level. Hooked up with the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C. And at 11 a.m., each day, all clocks stop and all time is synchronized. The timeclock we have on the counter rotates on a minute basis. It could be 1 minute, you know, either way. I think back----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, the particular timeclock that was used to stamp this machine, is that the master clock--I mean to stamp this document, is this the master clock?
Mr. LANE. No; it is not.
Mr. HUBERT. What clock is synchronized to Naval Observatory Time?
Mr. LANE. It is the clock in the P&R office, there for the purpose of having somebody to check it and make sure it is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it the custom of the company to have all of the master clocks throughout the Nation synchronized each day at 11 o'clock?
Mr. LANE. It is. It very definitely is. Our business is built on the time basis.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how is the particular timeclock which was used to stamp the time on Exhibit 5118 synchronized to the master clock in Dallas?
Mr. LANE. When the master clock is set by the Naval Observatory Time, at the same time our master clock here synchronizes all our timeclocks.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that done automatically?
Mr. LANE. It is done automatically.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state, therefore, that from your knowledge of how time and timeclocks throughout the Western Union system are set, that at 11 o'clock on November 24th, the master clock in Dallas and the particular timeclock used to stamp Exhibit 5118, were all synchronized on Naval Observatory Time?
Mr. LANE. Yes; they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which, for the purpose of identification, I have marked, "Dallas, Texas, Exhibit 5119," already identified by you, and your name appears on it, and ask you to tell me what that is?
Mr. LANE. This is a copy of the original receipt that I wrote for Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. That is in your handwriting?
Mr. LANE. That is my handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the original itself?
Mr. LANE. The original is given to the customer. It was given to Mr. Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember giving it to him?
Mr. LANE. Yes; very definitely.
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Mr. HUBERT. Was that document given to him when the change was given to him?
Mr. LANE. When the change was given back, his receipt was given back at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that document also bears a time at the top of it. What time does it show?
Mr. HUBERT When did you say it was stamped or would you say it was stamped at the same time as Exhibit 5118?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the normal course of business, which one would be stamped first?
Mr. LANE. There would be no first. We stamp them at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. But, it takes two different actions.
Mr. LANE. Not fully.
Mr. HUBERT. No? Do you mean----
Mr. LANE. We have carbons. See, like on this receipt. That is a carbon receipt. Well, you would stamp it one---or both could be stamped at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. But, both have to actually be put in the machine, don't they?
Mr. LANE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice the times on those documents are in terms of minutes.
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There is nothing to indicate the fractions of minutes involved?
Mr. LANE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to say that the time that these transactions took place could not have been earlier than 11:17 a.m., of November 24, nor later than 11:18?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I would be willing to state that.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you can't tell whether it would be 11:17 and a half or something of that sort?
Mr. LANE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You do know that the clock mechanism had turned already to 11:17, but it had not yet turned to 11:18?
Mr. LANE. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. After you had handed Mr. Ruby his change and the original receipt, of which 5119 is a copy, what did he do?
Mr. LANE. He turned immediately from the counter, went through the door and went out and turned to the left.
Mr. HUBERT. How much distance is there between the counter and the door?
Mr. LANE. Oh, approximately 8 or 10 feet.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, he went out the door that opened on Main Street?
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And he turned to his left?
Mr. LANE. To the left as you are facing the street.
Mr. HUBERT. In what direction would he then--towards what street would he then be going?
Mr. LANE. Toward Harwood Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay any appreciable length of time in the office after you had handed him the change and the receipt?
Mr. LANE. No, he did not spend anytime he went straight to the door.
Mr. HUBERT. He simply accepted the change and the receipt. Do you know what he did with them?
Mr. LANE. I have no idea. I mean, he had them in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't put them in his pocket?
Mr. LANE. Not immediately.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him put them in his pocket?
Mr. LANE. No, I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you oberve him after he left the office and turned to his left?
Mr. LANE. No, after he turned he would be out of sight--the shades were drawn on that side, and I just saw him turn, and that was the last I saw of him.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be walking fast, slow, medium?
Mr. LANE. Just ordinary gait.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice on Exhibit 5118, another time, which seems to be 1963, November 24, p.m., 12:26. What does that mean?
Mr. LANE. That is the time that the money order was put into the wire in the upstairs office----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, explain what you do after the application is accepted, the money received, the change given back, the receipt given to the customer?
Mr. LANE. I put it in a tube, suction tube that takes it directly upstairs to be transmitted.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you endorse anything on the application at that time?
Mr. LANE. I endorse nothing. I have done all that before.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. "MOD,"----
Mr. LANE "MOD," is a transmission mark.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your handwriting?
Mr. LANE. Yes, it is.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the significance?
Mr. LANE. Money Order Department, Fort Worth from Money Order Department, Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. That is done before it is stamped by the clock?
Mr. LANE. Before it is stamped.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, once you put it in the tube, that is the end of it, as far as you are concerned?
Mr. LANE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your experience in your 10 or 12 years employment with Western Union what happens when it gets upstairs?
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir; it is removed from the tube, put on a sending position, and sent. This day it was different because of the press. Press releases coming in immediately, and many of them, so, it was delayed quite a while. Ordinarily, it is about 20 minutes from here to Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. But, that stamp on 5118, is the Dallas time of----
Mr. LANE. Time it was actually transmitted here in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that work on the same clock system that you were speaking of before?
Mr. LANE. A different machine, but synchronized, by the same master clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned something about a lot of press releases coming in which delayed the message a little bit. Those press releases were being handled upstairs, were they?
Mr. LANE. Most of them were.
Mr. HUBERT. Were any being handled downstairs?
Mr. LANE. Well, reporters, running in there with scribbled notes.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, do you recall whether any reporters came in with any kind of notes, or saying anything during the time that Jack Ruby was there, which would have indicated to Ruby that the transfer of Oswald was imminent?
Mr. LANE. Oh, no. There was, as I recall--like I say, I don't always notice who comes in that office, because it is a stopping place for everyone, but as I remember, my previous customer, before Jack Ruby, turned around and left after the transaction Ruby came up and, was right there. He just handed me the money order, apparently he had come in while I was waiting on the other customer, because I believe there were only the two in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. After the first customer left, there was only you and Ruby at the counter?
Mr. LANE Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember anybody coming in?
Mr. LANE. Well, there was nobody between that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember anybody coming in while Ruby was there indicating in any way whatsoever that the transfer of Oswald was going to happen very shortly?
Mr. LANE. Oh, no, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at any time between 10:30 and 11:20 that an
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armored car had driven up and been placed in the Commerce Street entrance of the jail?
Mr. LANE. No, I was not.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible for an individual who has a telephone, to send money by use of a telephone instead of filing an application personally and paying over the money in cash?
Mr. LANE. Not an individual. Not just the ordinary telephone subscriber is not.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your answer that in certain instances it is possible.
Mr. LANE. It is possible by prearrangement only.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what that would mean?
Mr. LANE. Ordinarily a prearrangement is a money deposit--deposit with Western Union a certain sum of money and they are usually companies. In fact, most of ours are companies that make these deposits in order that they can phone that money order to be sent, we have money on deposit, we send it.
Mr. HUBERT. It is a prepaid money order?
Mr. LANE. A prepaid arrangement.
Mr. HUBERT. All that happens over the telephone is the request that money already made on deposit be sent to a certain address?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to do it that way when no money is placed on deposit?
Mr. LANE. Only on a prearranged basis. Sometimes we won't require deposits if they are legitimate companies and a good credit rating with us.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack Ruby had any such arrangement?
Mr. LANE. No; he did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it normal for any individual to have it?
Mr. LANE. No; it is very seldom. In fact, we don't even have any in Dallas, individuals.
Mr. HUBERT. Only companies?
Mr. LANE. Only companies.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any kind of security device to be sure that the person calling is really authorized to be sending the money either on deposit or to be charged?
Mr. LANE. Every money order called in is confirmed by telephone with certain individuals within the firm.
Mr. HUBERT. That is by prearrangement also?
Mr. LANE. That is by prearrangemerit.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system is used by the Western Union Co., from your experience with the company during your tenure of employment with them in connection with the payment of money to the addressee? What is the normal system? What usually happens?
Mr. LANE. Well, that depends on whether he comes into the office or not. In this instance the girl had identification as required. They have---the paying clerk has to be satisfied within his or her own mind that the individual they are talking to is the correct person, and like I say, identification is required.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how does the Western Union office at the receiving end get the information about paying money?
Mr. LANE. It is transmitted over the wires to the receiving end, stating the amounts to be paid, the person to be paid to, the person's address if they sent it, and the person it is from.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when that is received, is a check written out payable to that person, or how is it handled?
Mr. LANE. If it is to be delivered a Western Union check is written. If it is to be picked up a cash receipt copy is made out and attached to the money, and when the person comes in and gives them the identification required, asks them the required questions, such as, "How much are you expecting? Who is it from? Where is it from? They have to answer those questions.
Mr. HUBERT. And is any identification of the individual required?
Mr. LANE. Yes; it is very definitely personal identification.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, what system is used by way of timing the various transactions on the receiving end?
Mr. LANE. On the receiving end, whenever the telegram is received in the receiving office, it is time stamped.
Mr. HUBERT. It is time stamped by use of the same kind of machine that you have identified before?
Mr. LANE. That we used before.
Mr. HUBERT. Synchronized to the national time?
Mr. LANE. That is correct, and also timed at the time of payment. Time you actually give the addressee the money.
Mr. HUBERT. Stamped with the same clock?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, all of this time that we have been speaking of is central standard time?
Mr. LANE. Central standard time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Lane, that we have not covered?
Mr. LANE. No; I can't think of anything that we haven't covered.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff other than myself prior to the taking of this deposition?
Mr. LANE. No; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was an interview between you and me, was there not, just before the beginning of this deposition?
Mr. LANE. Well, that is correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have we covered in this deposition everything that we talked about in the course of the interview?
Mr. LANE. Yes; we have.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you--has there been anything of a material nature at all covered in the interview which has not been covered in this deposition?
Mr. LANE. Not a thing that I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.