Testimony Of William J. Newman
The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 11 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Burr W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Newman, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson on November 29th, 1963, and under a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. The Commission has prescribed a set of rules of procedure. Pursuant to those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition.
I want to tell you a little bit about what the general nature of the inquiry is. Of course, this was set up, as you know, after President Kennedy was assassinated and Lee Oswald died. Our instructions are to investigate, evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the murder of Lee Oswald.
Now, that includes going into the background of Oswald and Ruby, their associations and their motives anything that you can think of about them. have no authority to send anybody to jail, except for perjury. We are not like the grand jury, in the sense if we find a crime, and we are not conducting this examination with the thought that anybody else is going to use this information to prosecute for crimes of anybody except for perjury.
The most important motivating force, I think, in this investigation is one of national security, not only from the standpoint of finding out as much as we can so that we can learn how to prevent all of the occurrences that have taken place in the last four months from ever happening again, but also, so we can determine if there is any possibility that there was more than one person involved with either one of these two men.
Now, we have asked you to appear .here primarily to develop facts in connection with the murder of Oswald, but if you have any sort of information that would be relevant to the entire scope of our investigation, we would like to have it.
Now, in particular you have been asked to appear here by virtue of a general request which was made by the General Counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry, a letter was sent to Chief Curry and a whole list of' names was on that letter, and we indicated that we were going to examine these people. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3-day written notice personally from the Commission, and that hasn't been sent to you. However, you may waive that notice, and some people insist on it and others don't. It doesn't make any difference to us, but I would ask you now whether you would like us to give you the written notice or whether you are willing to waive the written notice?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I will be willing to waive it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I notice that you don't have an attorney here, and that you are also permitted to have an attorney in any appearance before us, and if you have any thought that this would be something that you think would be desirable, don't hesitate to say so, because, again, many people have had attorneys here, even down here in Dallas, and we would be happy to go home and go to bed tonight and take up at a more convenient time. Do you want an attorney?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you to raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NEWMAN. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr. NEWMAN. William J. Newman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Newman?
Mr. NEWMAN. January 31, 1937.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. NEWMAN. My street address?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. NEWMAN. 10923 Cotillion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Cotillion?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Nods head.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what's your occupation?
Mr. NEWMAN. I am a mechanical engineer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mr. NEWMAN. Ling-Temco-Vought.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ling-Temco---L-i-n--[spelling]?
Mr. NEWMAN. L-i-n-g T-e-m-c-o V-o-u-g-h-t [spelling]. Three words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 6 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you also a member of the Dallas Police Reserve?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a member of the police reserve?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, 18 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you, are you a graduate engineer?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many years of education have you had?
Mr. NEWMAN. I had a year and a half.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college?
Mr. NEWMAN. College education.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you attend college?
Mr. NEWMAN. Arlington State.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that at Arlington, Tex.
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right here in the general area of Dallas?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; it's midway between Dallas and Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of courses did you take at Arlington State?
Mr. NEWMAN. Just general engineering courses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed at Ling-Temco-Vought?
Mr. NEWMAN. About 6 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, can you tell us something about the nature of your duties with your employer?
Mr. NEWMAN. I'm a design engineer and lead man. I am responsible for four or five draftsmen on a given project.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean you are a design engineer; what sort of things do you do?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's mechanical design of high-power transmitters, radar transmitters, mostly, electronic circuits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you put things on drawing boards?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you work from plans that other people draw up or plans that other people conceive, or are you responsible to come up with ideas?
Mr. NEWMAN. I work from an electrical schematic, and I am responsible for the mechanical design and supervision of the other men, to make sure this work is carried out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you work under a graduate engineer of some sort?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you go through a training program before you became a member of the police reserves?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that training program?
Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did you go to school?
Mr. NEWMAN. It was 2 hours a night, 1 night a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any compensation in connection with your services on the police reserves?
Mr. NEWMAN. None whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why does anyone want to be a member of the police reserve?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, civic responsibility, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any little side benefits of any sort?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, yes. You mean in the way of favors, this type of thing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't know, not necessarily that, but what--
Mr. NEWMAN. I enjoy it because I do office work, indoors, and this is a way of getting out, little something to break the routine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there favors and what not that you can get on account of this?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, outside of maybe being overlooked of a traffic violation, I don't know of any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to paint yourself too good in this way, because we had one guy who came in here and painted himself real good, and found out that he was making a mistake. Maybe I am a great skeptic.
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's like I say, in my case I have always been interested in law enforcement and it is an outlet, hobby, so to speak.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say this, I finished interviewing Captain Arnett, and I found him to be a very fine gentleman, so on the basis of my experience, I don't have any reason to make these comments. Now, were you on duty with him?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was that evening. That was some 6 or 7 hours after the assassination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What time did you come on duty Friday evening?
Mr. NEWMAN. 7 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got to the police station, who did you report to?
Mr. NEWMAN. To Lieutenant Merrell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you then assigned?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was then assigned to ride observation with the Radio Patrol Squad 113.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did riding observation consist of?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this is our normal assignment. We don't normally take part in police activities unless we are directed by a regular officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were riding around in the district someplace?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this permit the regular officer to be relieved for other duties?
Mr. NEWMAN. No, it didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have had to come in on Friday night anyhow?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday night, on Saturday, were you at the police department?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; none at all Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday, did you come in?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, how did you happen to get called in on Sunday?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was called by Sergeant Sullivan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time do you believe Lieutenant Merrell called you?
Mr. NEWMAN. It was approximately 8:30 or 9 a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix that time?
Mr. NEWMAN. I just say--I suppose it took me approximately an hour to get down there and I arrived about 9:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were called in the morning?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 8:30 or 9 in the morning?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that he called you in the morning, had you anything about the possibility of moving Lee Oswald to the county jail?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I knew he would be, of course, but I didn't know what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, on Friday night, were you on the third floor at all?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; not at any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you came in on Sunday where you parked your automobile?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I parked it across the street from the police garage on Canton.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On what street?
Mr. NEWMAN. On Canton, C-a-n-t-o-n [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, is that north, south, east, or west of the
Mr. NEWMAN. It's immediately south of the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far from Commerce Street; how many blocks from Commerce Street?
Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, I think it's 3 blocks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is a police garage them?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you walk up Harwood?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what entrance you entered?
Mr. NEWMAN. I entered Commerce Street door that leads into the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any recollection of whether there were any TV wires strung through there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; there was a large van parked on Commerce Street, on the corner of Commerce and Harwood, and there was all kinds of cables. I don't recall whether there were any going in that door or not. There might have been, possibly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV cables coming down the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not to my recollection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you spent some time after you were placed on duty over in the garage area?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as I understand it, close to Commerce Street?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were guarding the door to the enginerooms, in that general area?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, the first thing, when I first got there, I was assigned to help search the automobiles that were parked in the garage.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to get to that. I am going to go a little backwards on this.
Mr. NEWMAN. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get the questioning. Where you were finally stationed prior to the time Oswald was shot, was that near the entrance, the doorway to the engine room?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to get a map, diagram here, and I would like for you to try to think back to that. I am going to mark this Newman Exhibit 5037. Now, Mr. Newman, this is a copy of the diagram of the basement area of the Police and Court Building in Dallas. I will try to explain it to you and then if you have any questions, why, I will try to answer those. But you see in this area is the jail office, Harwood is off in this direction. There is Main, there is Commerce [indicating]. Now, this dotted line here running parallel to Commerce Street is actually the outside wall above ground level and here would be Commerce Street, if you were at ground level, here would be the sidewalk, here would be the outside wall. However, when you are in the basement, this diagram purports to represent anyhow, that the basement is this solid black line over here, and I presume that that's true, although I have never checked it myself.
Mr. NEWMAN. It looks to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do--these other black marks around here represent posts [indicating]. Now, would you indicate on this diagram where it was that you were stationed by--well, where it was you were stationed in connection with the security of the basement, after the search of the basement?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was placed right at the place of this column. There is what this is, isn't it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. NEWMAN. Do you want me to-----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just an "X" there [indicating]. Now, as you were standing there, do you remember whether any TV cables ran through that general area?
Mr. NEWMAN. There were none there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There were none. Were there any TV cables that you could see in the garage area?
Mr. NEWMAN. By the garage area, you are talking about this area here [indicating]? I didn't see any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an arrow here that says "to engineroom." Are you familiar with--is there a door over in that area?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not a door as such. I don't believe it can be closed. It's just an opening there [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an opening?
Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can walk into the engineroom there?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. Actually walk--in fact, I didn't even know it was there until that morning, but you can walk onto a landing here and then down. The engineroom is some 5 or 10 feet lower than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stand in that general area all the time, from the time that Sergeant Dean placed you there until Oswald was shot?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; there was one time when I was called back into the assembly room, back over here. I think they needed some men somewhere else. They picked four or five men and then I was returned to this place [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would you estimate that you were pulled off this spot temporarily?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, it must have been 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long were you away from the area?
Mr. NEWMAN. Five minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me mark on here pulled off for 5 minutes, 45 minutes to 1 hour before Oswald shot [indicating]. Did anybody replace you?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; they didn't--I better not make that statement. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to go back and pick things up from the time you entered.
Mr. NEWMAN. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it when you arrived down there at the building?
Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9:30 a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?
Mr. NEWMAN. I went to the assembly room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the assembly room?
Mr. NEWMAN. Just long enough to have my name in the unit taken down on the roster.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lieutenant Merrell called you, did he tell you why you were to come down?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you?
Mr. NEWMAN. He said that Oswald was to be transferred at 10 o'clock, that they expected some crowds downtown and they thought they would need our help, or a crowd was gathering, I think is what--the way he had actually said it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his telling you the time would be 10 o'clock?
Mr. NEWMAN. I happened to remember it because I had to rush to get down there in time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything else?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; that was all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down there, did you receive any instructions from somebody?
Mr. NEWMAN. He and I walked out into the garage area there and we talked to some--to Sergeant Dean then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the search of the garage already begun when you arrived?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in connection with the search?
Mr. NEWMAN. I searched--well, we looked inside all the automobiles. We checked to make sure the trunk was locked, that the hood was securely latched, and this general area right in here, there were three or four of us working that area in there [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are talking now about the Commerce Street half of the garage?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you do besides search the
Mr. NEWMAN. That was it, until I was assigned to that post.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see what Sergeant Dean did?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't. The only time I remember seeing him, they found a sporting type rifle in a car somewhere. I think it was later identified as belonging to one of the officers. I saw him walking out with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period you were standing there in the garage, were you able to look over in the direction of the Main Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see, during the period that you were in the garage, any automobiles moved out of the garage?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down--was brought down the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't even know it was there. I couldn't see it from my location. Well, the armored car wasn't brought down the ramp. It was just backed to the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a time that you were aware there was an armored car up there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not until after the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing where you were standing was there anything that happened, what you would estimate, a half hour before Oswald was shot, that would be significant to fix the time?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; the only thing I can recall at all, there was a pop-type noise in that area there. I found out later, when they opened the door to the armored car a soft drink bottle had rolled out and broken. That caused quite a commotion among the reporters and some of them went up the ramp to see what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you heard that pop-type noise, do you remember anything else before that that might be significant?
Mr. NEWMAN. No. Other than the movement of the cars and the men in there, I can't recall anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention then to the pop-type noise, did you see any cars moved out of the basement after you heard the pop?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I am almost certain a car did leave after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw a car leave or more than one car?
Mr. NEWMAN. One is all I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that car parked, if you recall?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I am not too sure of that. I think it was parked in this area just to the bottom of this small ramp here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where you think that was? You want to mark car?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see that car move to?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if its the one I am thinking about, they turned and went out .the Main Street side. I recall there was a car came in. I think it was a squad that had a prisoner. I don't recall it leaving. It may have. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you recall a car coming in, before or after that car went out?
Mr. NEWMAN. It must have been before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say must have been, because somebody has told you that a car went out there?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; but I am sure I do recall this car left--oh, not over 5 or 10 minutes, if that long, before Oswald was brought in, and I do know that no other car left after that, or entered.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, do you remember two cars being moved out of the garage up behind the armored van?
Mr. NEWMAN. I recall one that was parked right here. I don't remember whether there were two or not, but there was definitely one parked right here on the level part of the ramp [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where that came from; where that car came from?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall, but I think it came from the parking area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't see it moved out of the parking area?
Mr. NEWMAN. If I did, I don't recall. I am sure I did, but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Sergeant Dean placed you in the basement, did you recall where he placed any of the other men?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. The only one I remember was there was a regular officer--I don't know who he was. He was in this approximate area here. Do you want me to mark this [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead. Why don't you put a "R" for regular?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there were any officers over here by elevators Nos. I and 2 and the service elevator?
Mr. NEWMAN. I am almost certain there weren't any in the garage area, except he and I, immediately prior to the shooting. There was quite a few moving around through there before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before that were they moving around?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say an hour before that, they were moving in and out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But let's take the 10 or 15 minutes before the shooting. Were there any men over by those elevators?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not except the one man. I assume that was his job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The one man you have marked here with an "R"?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to tell whether these elevators No. I and No. 2 were in operation?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; there is no way I had of knowing. I could see the elevators, but I don't know whether they were in operation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody go up or down those elevators in the hour that you were at your position?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether or not this service elevator was in operation?
Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't know either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that service elevator?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state positively that there was nobody, during the period you were here, who you saw in that service elevator?
Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't say that. I just say I couldn't see anyone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, during the time you were stationed here, did you see anybody come out of the engineroom area?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were stationed if there was anybody in there, a night watchman or anybody in that engineroom there?
Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't see if there was anybody in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in the 20 minutes or half hour before the shooting, how many cars would you say were parked in this part of the garage [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 20.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in that half hour before the shooting, was there any traffic in and out of that garage?
Mr. NEWMAN. Just that one squad, that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time that you heard that Coke bottle drop, where was your attention focused, from your position?
Mr. NEWMAN. At the time?
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from the time?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What were you looking at in there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, my main concern was this room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. NEWMAN. I was looking occasionally throughout the rest of the area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you faced from there, from where you have got yourself, what direction you were facing?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was facing in this direction [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion at any time to look over in this area here [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not until immediately prior to the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What directed your attention over there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Someone yelled, "Here he comes." I believe, "Here they come,,, something to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could hear that from over there?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about when you saw an automobile move out of the garage? Did you follow that automobile did you watch and see where that automobile went?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not from the time it got on the ramp. I couldn't see but about two thirds of the ramp. I couldn't see the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after that automobile left, did you continue to watch over in that direction?
Mr. NEWMAN. No. There was nothing unusual about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time, or as the automobile was moving out, can you describe this area, in what I will call the entrance to the garage, describe how many people were in that area there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 40, 50, 60 people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there substantially more people in the area in the garageway than in the area along the Main Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; there were more people over in this area here, along this wall [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were over there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, that's what I meant, I would say over 40 or 50, total. Out of that, I wouldn't think there were more than 5 or 10, if that many, in this area here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark down here the placement of the people in that area at the time you heard somebody yell, "Here he cornea".
Mr. NEWMAN. You just want to know about this one area?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall specifically anyone being there at any particular place [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, over in this area, can you show me how they were placed over there [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. There was a group along this wall, there was a group over here that I could see [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what's your estimate of the number of people that were in this group?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from what I could see, I would say maybe 20, just an estimate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put about 20 there?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many people would you estimate were over in this cluster that you have marked there [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. From what I could see, it appeared to be about the same number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About 20 there. And, how many deep were they?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I couldn't see that much detail. I could just tell there was a crowd of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you try to indicate how people were spaced over in here [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if there were, they were very sparse. I would just say individually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don't you just write in there "sparse."
Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the TV cameras were placed?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate on that where the TV cameras were?
Mr. NEWMAN. AS I recall, there were three.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you came into the basement the first time, did you see a TV camera over in this area here that I have pointed to [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not a large camera. There may have been a hand-held camera, but no large camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am indicating on here, so the record will reflect, I am pointing to the area roughly in front of the Jail office door. For anyone reading this, I will indicate also that this is an area in which Assistant Chief Batchelor indicated that sometime, that he is not sure of, in the early morning he saw a TV camera there, and he believes he had it moved. Now, I take it you don't recall any equipment of any sort being in this area in here, in the garage [ indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. TV equipment?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In the entrance to the garage?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this a railing, incidentally [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. This is a small rail right here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me write across here "rail." Now, from where you were standing, were you able to see over that rail?
Mr. NEWMAN. Partially.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How high is that rail?
Mr. NEWMAN. It isn't over 3 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a solid thing or is it a metal set
Mr. NEWMAN. Just made of pipes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it any different from the railings that's along the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. Same type railing, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Same type of railing. And the railing that's marked in solid on the other side of the entrance to the garage next to the chief parking area, which I will also label rail, that's the same kind of railing as the ones over near the TV cameras?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, your vision from where you were standing was not substantially obstructed by any permanent parts of the building, from where the marked curb on the ramp is, all the way down, perhaps to this, all the way down to this railing here [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. It was somewhat obstructed by these columns, but nothing to keep me from getting an overall view of the area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what do you recall happening after the automobile drove out of the drive and went up the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anything until I heard that "Here he comes," called out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard the "Here he comes"?
Mr. NEWMAN. I looked up in that direction.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see when you looked up in that direction?
Mr. NEWMAN. All I saw was the newsmen congregating to that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they seem to be pushing in from?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, they were making a round in this general area in here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area up in the ramp, Main Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How deep were they in the Main Street ramp, by that time?
Mr. NEWMAN. I would guess two or three, but that's Just a guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does that include policemen, also?
Mr. NEWMAN. You mean the number of people?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say the total number of people was two or three deep there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it solid across from this wall to the railing?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I couldn't see that much detail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in that direction, after you heard "Here he comes," and you saw this milling around, what is the next thing that you remember seeing?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, like I said, I saw these people congregating to this area. I did see a man come down this ramp [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw a man come down the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see him come down the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. It was just immediately after that was called out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And whereabouts did you first see him when he was on the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say in about the location of this arrow [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put a mark there?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you see that man do?
Mr. NEWMAN. He just ran down in here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to run down into the center or to one side or what?
Mr. NEWMAN. From the angle I was looking, I couldn't tell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that man--how that man was dressed?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see that man emerge?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby move forward at Lee Oswald?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were standing here, could you see the areaway here [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I could because of the car that was parked here. I don't recall seeing the area. I don't recall not seeing it. I don't much think I could, though, because there was a car parked right here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark this in pencil. Is that about where this car was [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. I would say it was just about that location [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And is the way we have got this drawn here at this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at the time Oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's the way it appeared to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us anything about that area there [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. NO. I do remember one thing, now, that was--some half hour before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am.
Mr. NEWMAN. It was parked, I would say, approximately here. I will mark this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just mark it "car one half hour before shooting."
Mr. NEWMAN. All right [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that car there at the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; it wasn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that car moved?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall it being moved. It might possibly have been the car that left here. I do know there was a car over here. I wasn't paying that much attention as to what they were doing. This might possibly have been this car; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came from, but you did see a car go up the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this car that moved through the line of newsman?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not that I recall. I didn't pay any attention to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have indicated that this car you saw move out, moved out 5 or 10 minutes before the shooting. Now, I know it's awful difficult, we have been here talking, and I frankly haven't any idea how long we have talked. Maybe it is easier to pinpoint the movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle?
Mr. NEWMAN. All I know, it was sometime between the bottle and the shooting. I would say I can't pinpoint it even within 10 minutes, but I do know it was a short time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I will mark this, "Exhibit, Dallas, Texas, W. J. NEWMAN," no; I take that back. I will mark it, but I think it best that we go through this whole thing chronologically. W. J. NEWMAN, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5038. Now, what did you do after the shot was fired?
Mr. NEWMAN. As soon as I heard the shot fired, I ran up into this place [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think we need to mark it. You stood at the base of the garage ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this officer came up to about--well, opposite me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To make this, maybe, a little easier, let's take the pencil and you mark where you went to with pencil, and draw a line to it, and then mark where this other fellow went. Why don't you put an arrow, so we know which direction we are moving?
Mr. NEWMAN. (Indicating).
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you remember what the name of that officer was?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do as you got up to that spot?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, he or I, neither one had anyway of knowing what had happened, other than the fact a shot had been fired, and he said, "Don't let anyone leave." There was a man came at me from this direction, running towards me. I stopped him [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Was he a newspaper man or what?
Mr. NEWMAN. He later told me he was a member of one of these camera crews.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do with him when you stopped him?
Mr. NEWMAN. We scuffled a couple of seconds there until he recognized I was a police officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. And as I recall, he said, "I am not trying to leave. I will stay with you. I just want to get away from there," or something to that effect. He didn't stand there but for a minute. Then he asked me if he could go back to the crew. I told him he could, but not to try to leave the building. I still didn't know what had happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he run off in that direction?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. There was a man crouched behind this column here [indicating]. I assumed, I still do, he was probably Just trying to find some place to go. Those columns offered the most protection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain there after you stopped that man?
Mr. NEWMAN. Until the ambulance arrived.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe this man that you stopped?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I can't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn what TV crew he was from?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the ambulance came, did you continue to remain there?
Mr. NEWMAN. I moved up to the base of the Commerce ramp here. There was another officer in plain clothes here some newsmen tried to follow the ambulance out and we stopped them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That was a plain clothes officer, I think you said.
Mr. NEWMAN. I think we stopped him. He showed us his identification and he went on up the ramp. Not more than, oh, 2 or 3 minutes after that, I assume they decided to let these men go where they wanted to. I don't know that for a fact, but at any rate I was sent out on the corner of Main and Harwood to direct traffic. There were quite a few police units coming in from different parts of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out on the corner of Main and Harwood?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not over 10 minutes. A motorcycle officer relieved me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. NEWMAN. Then I returned to the assembly room and I was sent out to Parkland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive out at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know exactly. From what happened, I would say 12:15 to 12:30, but that's just an approximation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out there?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was there until about 4:30 in the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody out there at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. NEWMAN. I talked to quite a few officers there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was right on the entrance where you turn into the hospital off of Harry Hines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what police officers you talked to?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any except Captain Solomon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were out there, did you tell anybody about having seen this man come down the Main Street ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; at the time I didn't place any significance on it, because I still didn't know what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were standing out there, did you hear any discussion about the name of the man who had shot Oswald?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not there. The officer who relieved me on the traffic detail there on the corner asked me if I knew it was Jack Ruby that had done it. That was all he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer that relieved you?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at 4 o'clock?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; it was at---oh, 12:15 or 12:30, on the corner of Harwood and Main.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you got to Parkland Hospital, you knew Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. NEWMAN. I knew a man named Jack Ruby had shot him. The name didn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you relieve Officer Vaughn at the Main Street entrance?
Mr. NEWMAN. Right here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you went to Main and Harwood?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right; I did. On the way back I did spend, oh, maybe 5 minutes here at this entrance [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did?
Mr. NEWMAN. Directing traffic.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Officer Vaughn there?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall the officer's name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, did you tell anybody out there the name of the person who shot Oswald?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of the officers who were out there at Parkland Hospital? By this, I mean reserve officers as well as regular officers?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anyone by name except Captain Solomon. I haven't been in the reserve long enough to know too many of these men. know there were 5 reserves---or 4 others and myself, who were transported out there in the squad car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know any of the reserve officers by name, outside of Solomon?
Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, yes; I know them, but I don't know any of those people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had you ever worked before with any of the reserve officers who were out there?
Mr. NEWMAN. I had gone through school with one of the--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?
Mr. NEWMAN. There again, I can't tell you his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe him?
Mr. NEWMAN. He was---I would know his name if I saw it. would say about 6'2", wavy black hair, medium built.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he wear glasses?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he does, where he is employed?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old is
Mr. NEWMAN. I guess late twenties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where he lives?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see this particular officer out at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?
Mr. NEWMAN. He relieved me sometime in the middle of the afternoon so I could go get a cup of coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about what had happened down there in the basement?
Mr. NEWMAN. No. The only thing I said, I just relayed to him the instructions I had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember telling anybody out there about seeing a man coming down the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that you did not tell anybody?
Mr. NEWMAN. I know I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you didn't tell anybody that. When did you first become aware that this might be significant, that you saw this man come down the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. When I was interviewed by Lieutenant Revill. It must have been the following Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you got off duty at Parkland Hospital, where did you go?
Mr. NEWMAN. I went back-to the Police and Courts Building and was assigned on the second floor, security-detail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. IS that where Captain Talbert was?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know the gentleman. It was right outside of the city planning office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. Was this on the second floor of the municipal building?
Mr. NEWMAN. The Police and Courts Building. The city planning or
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the jail part of the building?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. On the second floor, just to the right of the elevator, there is some city offices there other than the police department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the elevator, stationed on the elevators there?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I was at the stairway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to be doing there at the stairway?
Mr. NEWMAN. My instructions were that no one was to be in there except press, police, and anyone who had a business. There were several civilians who came into the building. I-recall one witness who, in accident, he was escorted into where he was going and escorted out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mr. NEWMAN. Until about 8:30 p.m. About 2 hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go?
Mr. NEWMAN. I was relieved and went home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right: Now, while you were .there, did you talk to Sergeant Dean?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, no; but I didn't see Sergeant Dean the rest of the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before you left duty, did anybody from the police department talk to you about writing a report or anything like that?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were standing around there before you left duty, did you hear any rumors about how Jack Ruby got in the building? What was the first rumor that you heard about how Ruby got in the building?
Mr. NEWMAN. The first I heard was not over 2 weeks ago in an account in a newspaper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. It was not over 2 weeks ago in an account.
Mr. NEWMAN. An article. The first--anything 1 had heard, rumor or otherwise, as to how he got into the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean 2 weeks ago from today?
Mr. NEWMAN. During the trial, approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't hear any rumors over television; didn't read any rumors in the newspaper?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, let me retract that. I do recall a statement that Ruby himself made. I don't remember when it was. It was sometime in the 4 months between the incident and the trial. I think he had boasted how easy it was, or he couldn't have planned it that well, or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take a daily newspaper?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take any news magazines?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Time?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Life?
Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness shakes head.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday Evening Post?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Read any magazines?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I read some magazines but no news magazines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, do you subscribe to any?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. American Rifleman and Readers Digest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are the only two magazines you subscribe to?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take both daily newspapers in town?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you try to keep abreast of the articles on the Ruby killing of Oswald, after this event?
Mr. NEWMAN. I think I read just about every word that was printed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't see a single rumor in any newspaper about how he got in?
Mr. NEWMAN. I won't say I didn't see it. I will say I don't recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall an article, for example, that was written about Sergeant Dean, where Sergeant Dean said, was quoted as saying he saw a man come down the Main Street ramp; do you recall that article?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't. The reason I remember so well is because this article I saw 2 weeks ago satisfied my curiosity. I had been curious all that time. knew from what Lieutenant Leavelle told me, or from the remarks he made, that with the men with him there---he wasn't making the remarks to me, but I think, when I told him about this, he turned to the other men and said, "Well, that's it." That's the only information I heard. The police officers I worked with and so forth had been very shut mouth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first requested to make a statement or prepare a letter or something of that sort for the use of the police department?
Mr. NEWMAN. It was the following Sunday, the week from the day of--the day Oswald was shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. NEWMAN. First request?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Newman Exhibit No. 5038. Would you read that over [indicating]?
Mr. NEWMAN. I am going to have to back up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this purports to be a copy of a letter which you signed and was addressed to Chief Curry and dated November 26, 1963. Did you prepare that letter?
Mr. NEWMAN. Let me think. The Tuesday night afterwards, Lieutenant Merrell gave me a mimeographed questionnaire for me to complete and return to him and I think I did it right there on the spot. It was a very vague-type thing. When I say statement, I am talking about the statement that I did sign the following Sunday, where they had this information that I had given them typed in the form of a statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in this statement you indicated that you saw Lieutenant Stuets and Lieutenant Crowey--Sergeant Crowey, of the reserves in the same area you were in?
Mr. NEWMAN. I saw them that morning. They were not in the same area that I was in. I had seen them in the basement that morning. I don't have any idea where they were at the time. I happen to know now where Sergeant Crowey was, but I found-that out later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Sergeant Crowey in the basement that morning?
Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't remember. It was sometime before the--
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by this statement in here that, "Names of other officers in the same area that I can't recollect." What do you mean by the same area?
Mr. NEWMAN. By the same area there I meant the basement proper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement do you remember seeing him?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant Crowey?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any specific area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement area did you recall seeing Stuets? Now, is Lieutenant Stuets or Sergeant Crowey, either one of them, this regular officer that you have got marked here with an "X"?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as that is concerned, then, you saw many officers in here who you would remember, whose names you would remember?
Mr. NEWMAN. No. The way I took that question and the way I answered it, those are the only two officers I saw that morning in the basement whose names I did remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they help you search the basement?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't believe so. They have been searching in another area, but they weren't right with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Arnett that day?
Mr. NEWMAN. Let me try to--I know he was there, but I don't think I saw him. I may have seen him after the shooting. There was so much confusion then that I wasn't paying too much attention to who I was seeing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of an officer on the police force named Blackie Harrison?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Chief Batchelor when you see him?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I would. I have only seen the gentleman one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Butler when you see him?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Jones when you see him?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Officer Lowery when you see him?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of the officers in the juvenile bureau?
Mr. NEWMAN. I would know one if I saw him. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Miller in the juvenile bureau?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name of this guy in the Juvenile bureau, if I gave you his name?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; as far as I know, I have never heard it. I have only been in there, I think, twice.
(Pause.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are a d--- 1---. I want you to come back tomorrow night and I want you I want to question you some more.
Mr. NEWMAN. I certainly don't appreciate that accusation. I have given you all I can, to the best of my memory, for 4 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to regard yourself as still under the obligation to appear, that you are already under, by virtue of having waived any notice here, and I would like to recess to continue this deposition until 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this office. If you would care to consult with an attorney at that time, or anything like that, and would like to come in here with one, I would be most happy for you to do so.
Mr. NEWMAN. May I ask: What are you getting at?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, frankly, after having sat here for an hour and having listened to this testimony, my own personal opinion, either you are absolutely not telling the truth or plenty of other people who have been in here aren't telling the truth. Somehow I am going to see how the devil we can reconcile these differences.
Testimony Of William J. Newman Resumed
The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 4:08 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that at 4:08, March 26, 1964, the deposition of Mr. W. J. Newman, which was commenced last night with Mr. Burr W. Griffin conducting the investigation, but which was not completed last night, is now being resumed by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., staff member, conducting the deposition.
Mr. Newman, are you willing to continue the deposition at this time?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you understand that you are under the same oath that you were yesterday when the deposition began, and all through the deposition?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you regard yourself as being under the same oath?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show, also, that I have been designated by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to take the sworn deposition of Mr. William J. Newman.
Mr. Newman, I simply want to mark for identification so that we will know what we are talking about certain papers and letters and reports so that we can refer to them by the designation marked on them.
Now, I notice that last night, apparently, the last exhibit number that was used by Mr. Griffin was No. 5038, in connection with a letter dated November 26, or rather it is a copy of a letter dated November 26 addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, the original of which, apparently, signed W. J. Newman.
Since I do not know what sequence of the letters Mr. Griffin has used since he started your deposition, I am going to number the documents that we will be talking about now by using the same basic number 5038, adding the letters "A", "B", "C", etc., as far as we need to go. Now, in that connection, I am marking an undated statement--an undated document, I beg your pardon, undated document entitled "Statement of Police Reserve Officer William J. Newman." It is also unsigned. And it is to be found in the Commission Document 81-A point 79. For the purpose of identification, I am marking it "Dallas, Tex. March 26, 1964. Exhibits 5038-A. Deposition of W. J. Newman." Sign my name below it. Then for the purposes of identification, also, I am marking a verifax or photostatic copy of "Officer's Memorandum dated December 6, 1963, to Lieutenant Revill, from Detective R. W. Westphal," which document is to be found in Commission Document 81-A point 79. And, I am marking that "Dallas, Tex. March 26, 1964. That's Exhibit 5038-B. Deposition of W. J. Newman," and signing my name below on that document. Then the next document is a letter, or verifax or photostatic copy of a letter, dated December 31, 1963, to J. E. Curry, signed by Jack Revill, and C. C. Wallace, purporting to be a report on an interview by Reserve Officer W. J.--William J. Newman, No. 317, and for the purposes of identification I am marking that document "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5038-C." Continuing your identification. "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5038-C. Deposition of W. J. Newman." I am signing my name on that document, which is also to be found in Commission Report--Commission Document No. 81-A point 79. Finally, I am marking what purports to be a copy of the report by FBI Agents James C. Kennedy and Leo L. Robertson, concerning an interview with William J. Newman on December 24. 1963, and for identification I am marking that document, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-D. The deposition of W. J. Newman." And signing my name on that document.
Now, Mr. Newman, you have had an opportunity, I think, to read these various documents there, 5038, then 5038-A, B, C and D.
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The only purpose of asking you to read them and to compare them is to ask you if you can assist us at getting at the facts, and that is all we want to know.
There seems to be some contradiction between them. Maybe there is not. If there isn't and you can show us that there isn't, that is all we want to know. If there is a contradiction, we would like to have your explanation, if we can, as to what is the truth, because that is all we want to know anyhow. If there is a contradiction, it is obvious that one of the statements must be wrong, and all we want to do is tell us which is wrong and which is right. That is the sole purpose of this inquiry.
Mr. NEWMAN. Be happy to; if I can.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I can get at it this way :-These reports seem to indicate that you saw a man coming down the ramp. These records also seem to indicate that you saw a man climbing over a rail in the basement. Now, I think we can clarify this situation immediately by asking you, do those reports relate to two different instances?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a man climbing over the rail, and there was a man coming down the Main Street ramp, and as far as you know they are two different episodes?
Mr. NEWMAN. Two different things.
Mr. HUBERT. Two different things. All right. We got a lot clarified there. Now, I think the other point is when did each of these happen, and let's take, first of all, the man coming down the ramp.
Mr. NEWMAN. This, as I stated there, was, as near as I can estimate, approximately I minute or less prior to the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said in your statement that because of the various conditions existing you could not identify the man by name or sight or anything of that sort?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when he was coming down the ramp?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. I have also---I have never made any estimate.
Mr. HUBERT. No; that's correct. I didn't mean to intimate that you had. It is a fact that a man coming down--that you did see a man coming down, but you really don't know who he is, and that never have known?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, seen pictures and so forth of Jack Ruby since?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the man coming down the ramp was Jack Ruby?
Mr. NEWMAN. No; I wouldn't. By the same token, I wouldn't say that he wasn't.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you can't say whether he was or wasn't?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I just didn't pay that much attention to it at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was definitely about a minute before the shooting?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. So, I think we have that one clarified, so far as that is concerned. Now, about the man jumping over the rail, what is your best thought about the timing on that?
Mr. NEWMAN. I have none. When I talked to Lieutenant Revill, I think this was Sunday the 1st of December, I guess it would be, and he asked me two or three times whether I had seen a man go over the rail. I couldn't recall anyone. Later, I think it was, oh, two days later, I am not sure. I did remember seeing someone go over that rail, but as I stated in that statement, I cannot, for the life of me, set the time in any figures. Just something that registered, and that was the end of it.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that when you say "it", you couldn't tell whether it was before the shooting or after, you can't tell whether it was a minute before or a minute after, 5 minutes before or 5 minutes after, or for that matter more time before or more time after?
Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I know not longer than 5 or 10 minutes after, because I wasn't there. I couldn't establish it at any time.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that your best recollection right now, today, .is simply that you have a recollection of a man going over the rail from the parking area into the ramp.
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the ramp was it; do you remember?
Mr. NEWMAN. About midway.
Mr. HUBERT. About midway? But, you don't know?
Mr. NEWMAN. Just
Mr. HUBERT. The relation of it as to time of the shooting, except that it couldn't have been when you weren't there, obviously.
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. You remember how the man was dressed?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you this, too: Do you know whether it was, or was not, or do you have any opinion on whether it was or was not Jack Ruby, or do you have any opinion as to who it was at all?
Mr. NEWMAN. I have no opinion whatsoever. I would like to say in that, since we are talking about this incident, that when I talked to Detective Westphal--was it?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. NEWMAN. Lieutenant Revill was out of town. He didn't indicate to me that he placed any importance on it whatsoever. I was not aware of the fact that he had even written a memo on it. Mr. Griffin, last night, did not bring it up, and I, after talking to him, dropped the subject. Didn't see fit to bring it up, or didn't even remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. What is this undated statement which we have identified as 5038-A, the one that is also unsigned? Do you know anything about that at all?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. I would guess probably that information was taken down at the time I talked to him on the telephone. That is, by and large, the statement I made to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You had called him on the telephone as indicated, in fact, by Exhibit 5038-B, when Westphal reports on it, says, "Subject." That means you, "called this date." Did he ask you when--in other words, he left a call for you, is that correct?
Mr. NEWMAN. Now, I called him.
Mr. HUBERT. You called him to tell him what?
Mr. NEWMAN. Just to give him that information that I had remembered since I talked to him the previous time, because at the time he seemed to think it was fairly important.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you go out to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man, reserve officer by the name of Holly?
Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. I spoke to several reserve officers. I can't recall any of them as to who they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling anyone of them about having seen either of these two men that we just talked about, that is to say, the man coming down the rail, or coming down the ramp, or the man coming over the rail?
Mr. NEWMAN. No, at the time I didn't even recall placing any significance on the fact, because at the time I didn't even know what had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall talking to anybody about either of these two episodes, the man going down the ramp and the man Jumping over the rail while you were at Parkland that day?
Mr. NEWMAN. No, I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement, but I think I had better get it exactly straight, that you did not do anything with respect to either of the two men?
Mr. NEWMAN. No, I had no contact with them.
Mr. HUBERT. I didn't mean that contact, so much as I meant taking some police action.
Mr. NEWMAN. No, that is what I meant too.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you know an officer by the name of Brock? Reserve officer, I believe.
Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't. I don't recognize the name.
Mr. HUBERT. And one by the name of Worley?
Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't recognize that name either. I might know him on sight if I see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any other comments to make? I think the thing is clarified.
Mr. NEWMAN. No, we had our misunderstanding last night. I didn't know what needed to be clarified. I know I was thoroughly shaky and possibly not too accurate as to the details of what happened in that basement prior to the shooting in the hour or hour and a haft, but that wasn't my concern, and I didn't pay too much attention. I Just gave it as best I remembered.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn't at the deposition last night, so I don't know what went on, and I, therefore, will not ask you any further questions. Have you had any interview with me prior to taking of this deposition today?
Mr. NEWMAN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think that is all. Thank you for coming very much.
Mr. NEWMAN. I do have one other thing here that Mr. Griffin seemed to be concerned about last night, in that I couldn't identify a man, a reserve officer I had met in the basement of the garage, or immediately after I got there by name. That that you are holding is a class picture that was made. I can now identify--I have a list of names in my pocket if you want them.
Mr. HUBERT. The only way for it to be of the use would be if you would let me mark the picture and put it in the record.
Mr. NEWMAN. You may have it if you like. I don't know whether it is of any importance or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't either, but--do you want it to go in?
Mr. NEWMAN. Not necessarily. I am leaving it up to you.
Mr. HUBERT. As I say, I don't know what the question was last night about identification, and you have brought this matter up; I am perfectly willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think it would be better, if you comment about it, to put it in the record, but on the other hand maybe it wouldn't necessary. Why don't you say what you have to say about it and then we can judge better?
Mr. NEWMAN. As near as I can recall, when he was questioning me about what officers I had seen in the basement that morning whom I knew, and the subject came up that I had seen one man but t could not remember his name. He asked me at that time for a description of him and I gave it to him. After looking at that picture last night when I got home, and with the list of names I had for the picture, I can now give the man's name, if you would like
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. NEWMAN. Third from the left--second from the left on the back row Casten, Jerome Casten.
Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. Now, that was the reserve officer that Mr. Griffin was questioning you about last night, and, as I understand it, You testified that you did remember seeing a man, and you gave his description, but at that time you did not know his name?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. With the aid of this picture, which as I understand, is a class picture I see Captain Solomon there, by the way--you identified him as the second man in the top row from the left, and you stated his name to be-----
Mr. NEWMAN. Jerome Casten.
Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. I think it would be better if you would allow this to go in. I am, therefore, marking the picture on the reverse side thereof by placing the following on it, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-E, deposition of W. J. Newman." Then I am signing my name below that. I am placing an "X" over the man you have identified, and placing my initials next to the "X"; is that correct, sir?
Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I don't remember seeing that man throughout the rest of the day, and to the best of my knowledge he was assigned somewhere other than the basement quite sometime prior to the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in. order that the record may show that we were both talking about the same document all the time, I wonder if you would mind placing your name below mine on each one of these?
Mr. NEWMAN. All right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.