Mr. JENNER - Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday. * (see below)
I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.
The REPORTER - Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. PAINE - I do.
Mr. JENNER - I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER - My material indicates that you were born in New York City.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - In 1932.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you remained in New York City until when?
Mrs. PAINE - I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.
Mr. JENNER - I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?
Mrs. PAINE - My family moved to New Jersey.
Mr. JENNER - And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?
Mrs. PAINE - I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.
Mr. JENNER - But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.
Mr. JENNER - But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER - And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - I must have been 10 or about to be 10.
Mr. JENNER - And you attended elementary schools and high school in Columbus?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?
Mrs. PAINE - In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.
Mr. JENNER - 1949 was it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE - I did, in 1955.
Mr. JENNER - You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.
Mr. JENNER - And do you receive any kind of credit?
Mrs. PAINE - In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.
Mr. JENNER - Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it doesn't.
Mr. JENNER - What was your major at Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE - I majored in education.
Mr. JENNER - And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.
Mr. JENNER - And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Or group activities, at least?
Mrs. PAINE - I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.
Mr. JENNER - You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE - At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.
Mr. JENNER - You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a----
Mrs. PAINE - That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.
Mr. JENNER - Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That is recreation instructor and leader?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?
Mrs. PAINE - No; that would have been the following summer.
Mr. JENNER - That would be 1951?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And where did that take place?
Mrs. PAINE - With the American Friends Service Committee?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.
Mr. JENNER - And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That is after reentering Antioch.
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; I had so understood.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?
Mrs. PAINE - That was period of 8 weeks; yes.
Mr. JENNER - And was your position a position of recreation leader?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER - And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - What did you teach?
Mrs. PAINE - I taught first graders, I particularly had the slow learning class.
Mr. JENNER - And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; was it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER - Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the America Friends Service Committee; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I recall that.
Mr. JENNER - Would you state what the nature of that was?
Mrs. PAINE - It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends----
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.
Mr. JENNER - Where is Pendle Hill?
Mrs. PAINE - Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Quakers.
Mr. JENNER - Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?
Mrs. PAINE - Two words.
Mr. JENNER - You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to--state it again.
Mrs. PAINE - The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.
Mr. JENNER - Oxford, England?
Mrs. PAINE - England.
Mr. JENNER - And you also attended----
Mrs. PAINE - A Young Friends Conference.
Mr. JENNER - At Reading, England.
Mrs. PAINE - Right.
Mr. JENNER - Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's He- brew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.
Mr. JENNER - Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.
Mr. JENNER - I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?
Mrs. PAINE - The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.
Mr. JENNER - Were they all emigres?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.
Mr. JENNER - That is a city in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.
Mr. JENNER - What was your particular activity in connection with this group?
Mrs. PAINE - I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.
Mr. JENNER - Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change?
Mrs. PAINE - I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.
Mr. JENNER - In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their families here.
Mr. JENNER - That is the first of those three groups.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What was the next?
Mrs. PAINE - The second was the group of young adults that met once a week.
Mr. JENNER - Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?
Mrs. PAINE - They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.
Mr. JENNER - Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or Poland?
Mrs. PAINE - No, no; they had been born here.
Mr. JENNER - They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?
Mrs. PAINE - I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.

Mr. JENNER - Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?
Mrs. PAINE - Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.
Mr. JENNER - It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.
Mr. JENNER - I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I hadn't.
Mr. JENNER - Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE - No; had these activities?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - Stimulated my interest?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.
Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.
Mr. JENNER - This was a private---
Mrs. PAINE - It is just a private farm; yes.
Mr. JENNER - I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER - Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?
Mrs. PAINE - It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.
Mr. JENNER - You say entering a school at that time.
Mrs. PAINE - I was about to enter high school.
Mr. JENNER - That was high school?
Mrs. PAINE - And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Vacation Bible School?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Tell us a little bit about that.
Mrs. PAINE - This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.
Mr. JENNER - So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in there?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Tell us a little bit more about that activity.
Mrs. PAINE - It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts and----

Mr. JENNER - Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?
Mrs. PAINE - Working with children in crafts with them.
Mr. JENNER - Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - University.
Mr. JENNER - University, was it?
Mrs. PAINE - This was the school I attended.
Mr. JENNER - That was your high school?
Mrs. PAINE - This was the high school.
Mr. JENNER - But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER - Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?
Mrs. PAINE - It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.
Mr. JENNER - By the families themselves?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories.
Mr. JENNER - Were these quite young children?
Mrs. PAINE - They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.
Mr. JENNER - Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - You did not?
Mrs. PAINE - You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended in the---
Mr. JENNER - I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.
Mrs. PAINE - I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.
Mr. JENNER - That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.
Mr. JENNER - Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?
Mrs. PAINE - You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.
Mr. JENNER - I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - In what activity were you engaged at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER - When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?
Mrs. PAINE - I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.
Mr. JENNER - What did you do? What was your work?
Mrs. PAINE - I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.
Mr. JENNER - During all of that period?
Mrs. PAINE - During those 2 years.
Mr. JENNER - Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - I see. That is where my confusion arose.
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE - I think it would have been August.
Mr. JENNER - August 1955?
Mrs. PAINE - It has to have been before school started.
Mr. JENNER - Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?
Mrs. PAINE - It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.
Mr. JENNER - And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough yesterday.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?
Mrs. PAINE - My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.
Mr. JENNER - In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE - There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that----
Mr. JENNER - No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you?
Mrs. PAINE - There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, .but they were not conferences.
Mr. JENNER - I see. I am using the wrong terminology.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them.
Mr. JENNER - This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.
Mr. JENNER - Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE - You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?
Mr. JENNER - I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.
Mrs. PAINE - It brings nothing to my mind.
Mr. JENNER - It does not?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That fits with my memory of it.
Mr. JENNER - And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?
Mrs. PAINE - We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and the American Friends Service Committee, also.
Mr. JENNER - And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And they went on from there to see other parts of America?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is say up to November 22----
Mrs. PAINE - You mean people who had been born there?
Mr. JENNER - Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.
Mrs. PAINE - A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.
Mr. JENNER - Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER - You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't think of any particular contact.
Mr. JENNER - Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.
Mr. JENNER - Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second was Nina Atarina?
Mrs. PAINE - Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.
Mr. JENNER - And she is the school teacher?
Mrs. PAINE - She is.
Mr. JENNER - And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 months?
Mrs. PAINE - It would be a year, I am quite certain.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.
Mrs. PAINE - I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe.
Mr. JENNER - That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?
Mrs. PAINE - Having to do with insurance; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Insurance companies?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER - This is a commercial activity, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I believe so. And----
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?
Mrs. PAINE - No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.
Mr. JENNER - What is the subject he is teaching?
Mrs. PAINE - It has to do with insurance.
Mr. JENNER - You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father an insurance----
Mrs. PAINE - He worked for the same company then.
Mr. JENNER - The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Have your parents had any interests in political matters?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me what you understand----
Mrs. PAINE - My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.
Mr. JENNER - Is that something like what I would call a farmers cooperative?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know what farmers cooperative is.
Mr. JENNER - Would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is?
Mrs. PAINE - I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.
Mr. JENNER - Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.
Mrs. PAINE - That is a correct statement.
Mr. JENNER - How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.
Mr. JENNER - And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean in their material tastes.
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.
Mr. JENNER - I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I think that is a fair statement.
Mr. JENNER - Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?
Mrs. PAINE - I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.
Mr. JENNER - Have you finished?
Mrs. PAINE - I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have discuss it more fully than that.
Mr. JENNER - Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"
She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."
Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive--that is November 1.
Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"
She said: "Yes."
She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."
Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE - It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.
Mr. JENNER - That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.
Mr. JENNER - And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?
Mrs. PAINE - I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.
Mr. JENNER - She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.
Mrs. PAINE - That is my recollection, also.
Mr. JENNER - That is your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER - And that was Mr. Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?
Mrs. PAINE - It could have been.
Mr. JENNER - Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's testimony?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, I don't no.
Mr. JENNER - It possibly could have happened that way?
Mrs. PAINE - It certainly could have.
Mr. JENNER - But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - I did indeed. May I interrupt?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - Could we have a short break?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER - During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER - And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. PAINE - There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. PAINE - That seems correct to me.
Mr. JENNER - Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she was not.
Mr. JENNER - She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall it offhand.
Mr. JENNER - Your sister, Sylvia?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or her husband?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, yes; of course.
Mrs. PAINE - But you don't mean that?
Mr. JENNER - I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't have any specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER - And you never did?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Or your sister?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know that.
Mr. JENNER - Your relations with your mother and your father--would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.
Mr. JENNER - And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?
Mrs. PAINE - I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - Do you exchange correspondence?
Mrs. PAINE - We do, and photographs of the children.
Mr. JENNER - And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And that has always been true, has it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?
Mrs. PAINE - When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters.
Mr. JENNER - From what I have seen I would take exception. I think You are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.
Mrs. PAINE - There has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes.
Mr. JENNER - And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?
Mrs. PAINE - For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?
Mrs. PAINE - It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.
Mr. JENNER - It covers a span of years going back to your college days?
Mrs. PAINE - And a few papers prior to college.
Mr. JENNER - I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER - Back on the record, please.
We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.
Mrs. PAINE - I gave no cash.
Mr. JENNER - You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.
Mr. JENNER - Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.
Mrs. PAINE - That was in late April.
Mr. JENNER - The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time?
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and temperature.
Mr. JENNER - What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE - In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.
Mr. JENNER - Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----

Mrs. PAINE - No, the shoes were for Marina.
Mr. JENNER - Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE - Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.
Mr. JENNER - Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?
Mrs. PAINE - That is distinctly my impression.
Mr. JENNER - They never paid you anything, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs. PAINE - No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.
Mr. JENNER - So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - At least during the time that Marina was with you.
Mrs. PAINE - At least during the fall; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?
Mrs. PAINE - I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.
Mr. JENNER - We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.
Mrs. PAINE - That is my impression.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE - I certainly do not recall.
Mr. JENNER - Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?
Mrs. PAINE - My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.
Mr. JENNER - Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I recall no such.
Mr. JENNER - The purchase of camera film and the development of camera film?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?
Mrs. PAINE - I read in the paper.
Mr. JENNER - Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.
Mr. JENNER - And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?
Mrs. PAINE - No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country. it was a different size.

Mr. JENNER - Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.
Mr. JENNER - But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had taken?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or people?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?
Mrs. PAINE - When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money.
Mr. JENNER - Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - In Irving?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to walk---I am quite certain------
Mr. JENNER - How far away is the place?
Mrs. PAINE - It would be a 3-minute drive about 10 blocks.
Mr. JENNER - Ten blocks away?
Mrs. PAINE - Something like that.
Mr. JENNER - Is it further away than the----
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to----
Mrs. PAINE - It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.
Mr. JENNER - When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER - I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE - He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.
Mr. JENNER - On occasion did he pack a lunch?
Mrs. PAINE - I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or some food for him to take.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say there was anything regular about that?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - You recall only that one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE - I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.
I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for identification.
They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.

(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall that letter.
Mr. JENNER - And was it in 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER - I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.
In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:
"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph.
"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the baby."
That is Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much." Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?

Mrs. PAINE - This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.
Mr. JENNER - From New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE - From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.
Mr. JENNER - But this does not refresh your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - It does?
Mrs. PAINE - It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.
Mr. JENNER - Now, in the next paragraph it says:
"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."
That was your feeling at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - It certainly was.
Mr. JENNER - After New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."
Mrs. PAINE - Right.
Mr. JENNER - Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE - I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.
Mr. JENNER - So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE - I did not expect that.
Mr. JENNER - As to your expectation--was that dependent on his employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would, send for Marina and they would be together again?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?
For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.
Do you recall the letter?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - You don't mention the place of work in your letter.
Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:
"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."
Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?
Mrs. PAINE - I think that is clear in the next sentence.
Mr. JENNER - All right; read the next sentence.
Mrs. PAINE - "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."
We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?
Mr. JENNER - I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?
Mrs. PAINE - I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.
Mr. JENNER - And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was---there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?
Mrs. PAINE - I had no such feeling.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a contrary feeling?
Mrs. PAINE - I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.
Mr. JENNER - And what was that?
Mrs. PAINE - Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.
Mr. JENNER - State?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?
Mrs. PAINE - I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.
Mr. JENNER - When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I really didn't.
Mr. JENNER - Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.
Mr. JENNER - The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you recall sending that letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER - And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?
Mr. JENNER - Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER - I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.
Mrs. PAINE - They had all been dispatched by me, yes.
Mr. JENNER - During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.
Mrs. PAINE - I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked to me----
Mr. JENNER - And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother- in-law?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her----
Mrs. PAINE - She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.
Mr. JENNER - Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE - Not that specifically.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER - When they first returned from Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.
I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he had been----
Mr. JENNER - Of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.
Mr. JENNER - Denton, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE - Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - Brother Robert?
Mrs. PAINE - I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.
Mr. JENNER - Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE - I am now aware of that.
Mr. JENNER - Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE - I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER - Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?
Mrs. PAINE - I was under the impression----
Mr. JENNER - In the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.
Mr. JENNER - Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?
Mrs. PAINE - There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But that was----
Mr. JENNER - What date was this?
Mrs. PAINE - April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think----
Mr. JENNER - Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE - I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.
Mr. JENNER - Where? In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.
Mr. JENNER - Did he come out with any mail?
Mrs. PAINE - Magazines, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Were you able to observe what those magazines were?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or his experiences in the service?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service?
Mrs. PAINE - His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.
Mr. JENNER - Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE - I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER - But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.
Mr. JENNER - Did she elaborate?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?
Mrs. PAINE - The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.
Mr. JENNER - Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley Martin?
Mrs. PAINE - Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January-February, I don't know just when.
Mr. JENNER - Late January or early February?
Mrs. PAINE - I would guess so.
Mr. JENNER - Of this year?
Mrs. PAINE - Of 1964; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Would you please relate that incident to us?
Mrs. PAINE - She telephoned to ask if she could come out.
Mr. JENNER - Had you known her?
Mrs. PAINE - I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.
Mr. JENNER - All right; proceed.
Mrs. PAINE - She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall what her questions were?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't specifically recall; no.
Mr. JENNER - Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin
Mrs. PAINE - I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.
Mr. JENNER - So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE - She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four-- no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.
Mr. JENNER - May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and Tuesday?
Mrs. PAINE - You can certainly see them.
Mr. JENNER - Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE - I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.
Mr. JENNER - Did you express any opinion on your part?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - On that subject?
Mrs. PAINE - I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.
Mr. JENNER - You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.
Mr. JENNER - Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - My overall impression progressed through several stages.
Mr. JENNER - Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.
Mrs. PAINE - In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.
And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.
When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.
He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.
And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.
Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I think while----
Mr. JENNER - His only human contact?
Mrs. PAINE - Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time----
Mr. JENNER - Of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE - Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.
Mr. JENNER - Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I recall specifically----
Mr. JENNER - And to you and your children?
Mrs. PAINE - And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.
Mr. JENNER - That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and I think I have testified that----
Mr. JENNER - Was that fairly distinct in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt successful. As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.
Mr. JENNER - What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?
Mrs. PAINE - I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.
And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.
Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.
Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.
Mr. JENNER - That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Understand in the sense that it might be something----
Mrs. PAINE - In terms of what I saw.
Mr. JENNER - That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - As a child.
I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.
Mr. JENNER - Took fewer and fewer risks?
Mrs. PAINE - I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.
Mr. JENNER - Or being hurt?
Mrs. PAINE - Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.
Mr. JENNER - Not being accepted?
Mrs. PAINE - If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.
Mr. JENNER - Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.
But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.
I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.

Mr. JENNER - What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?
Mrs. PAINE - I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.
Mr. JENNER - By the way, you were of her age, were you?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I am older than she. I am 31.
Mr. JENNER - You are 31 and she is what?
Mrs. PAINE - Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.
Mr. JENNER - Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?
Mrs. PAINE - I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.
Mr. JENNER - In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband.
Mr. JENNER - And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.
Mr. JENNER - What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE - Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have some contact with him?
Mrs. PAINE - I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER - We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE - We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.
Mr. JENNER - How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?
Mrs. PAINE - They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.
And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.
From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.
I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.
I came--perhaps I should interrupt here.
Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.
Mr. JENNER - When I come to Irving this coming week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?
Mrs. PAINE - The morning of the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER - And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.
Mr. JENNER - Her gratitude for what?
Mrs. PAINE - For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.
Mr. JENNER - And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.
Mr. JENNER - The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."
Mr. JENNER - They don't know?
Mrs. PAINE - That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.
Mr. JENNER - Has she?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on it.
Mr. JENNER - We have that in evidence, have we?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.
Mr. JENNER - May I see it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for you.
The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked m again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.

Mr. JENNER - She said this in the note? The answer is yes?
Mrs. PAINE - The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.
Mr. JENNER - You did not?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?
Mrs. PAINE - I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her tile. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.
Mr. JENNER - When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, since Marina----
Mr. JENNER - This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. PAINE - This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.
Mr. JENNER - Yes. This was at night?
Mrs. PAINE - It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me----
Mr. JENNER - Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?
Mrs. PAINE - Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.
Mr. JENNER - Did you gifts have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?
Mrs. PAINE - We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.
Mr. JENNER - Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.
Mr. JENNER - She has?
Mrs. PAINE - She recognized each of those things to which I referred.
Mr. JENNER - Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?
Mrs. PAINE - Indicated that she had received my letters.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.
Mr. JENNER - When was that?
Mrs. PAINE - It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.
Mr. JENNER - Of this year?
Mrs. PAINE - Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.
Mr. JENNER - Why did you make that inquiry?
Mrs. PAINE - Why did I make that inquiry?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.
Mr. JENNER - Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?
Mrs. PAINE - I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?
Mrs. PAINE - I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one----
Mr. JENNER - You mean isolated from her friends?
Mrs. PAINE - All right; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me.
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said----
Mr. JENNER - She said----
Mrs. PAINE - That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.
Mr. JENNER - You had learned it in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE - Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.
Mr. JENNER - I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.
Mr. JENNER - And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, indeed; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.
Mr. JENNER - Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.
Mrs. PAINE - I think that would be right. There has been a distinct break.
Mr. JENNER - Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - I would like that if it comes about.
Mr. JENNER - And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?
Mrs. PAINE - I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.

Mr. JENNER - Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE - Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the, fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.
Mr. JENNER - Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?
Mrs. PAINE - On several occasions.
Mr. JENNER - And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.
Mr. JENNER - You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER - I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become. a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions that she----
Mr. JENNER - I am seeking only your impression now.
Mrs. PAINE - I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.
Mr. JENNER - I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.
Mrs. PAINE - It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.
Mr. JENNER - I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?
Mrs. PAINE - He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.
Mr. JENNER - Nothing to do with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - None.
Mr. JENNER - February?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Pick them out according to dates.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.
Mr. JENNER - All right; distinguish between them, please.
Mrs. PAINE - I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.
Mr. JENNER - That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?
Mrs. PAINE - The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.
Mr. JENNER - And that was the previous year?
Mrs. PAINE - She was born in 1962.
Mr. JENNER - 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"
Mr. JENNER - Entered where?
Mrs. PAINE - On the 22d of February, and from this----
Mr. JENNER - And you have already testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE - From this I deduced that was when I first met them.
Mr. JENNER - Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. This was written after.
Mr. JENNER - After?
Mrs. PAINE - This was written indeed after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.
Mr. JENNER - When?
Mrs. PAINE - I heard it on November 23.
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.

Mr. JENNER - That is to the entry I have read?
Mrs. PAINE - Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.
Mr. JENNER - That is you made the entry October?
Mrs. PAINE - October 23 instead of November.
Mr. JENNER - It should have been November 23?
Mrs. PAINE - It should have been November 23.
Mr. JENNER - And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?
Mrs. PAINE - On the 20th.
Mr. JENNER - This is the square having the date March 20?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER - That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?
Mrs. PAINE - Right.
Mr. JENNER - Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Identify it, please, first as to date.
Mrs. PAINE - And this written at the time it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."
Mr. JENNER - You have already testified about this incident?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Any others?
Mrs. PAINE - Not for the month of March.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.
Mr. JENNER - You have testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Then there is an entrance on----
Mr. JENNER - An entry?
Mrs. PAINE - An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.
Mr. JENNER - You have testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.
Mr. JENNER - Entry, you mean again?
Mrs. PAINE - I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.
Mr. JENNER - You testified about that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "Lee and Marina."
Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds---
Mr. JENNER - You mean theirs?
Mrs. PAINE - Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee Wedding Anniversary two years ago."
Mr. JENNER - That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April?
Mrs. PAINE - I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the fall.
Mr. JENNER - You have now identified all entries on the April calendar referring to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER - Let's take May.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May 1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we saw the movie War and Peace.
Mr. JENNER - About which you have testified?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. The next entry----
Mr. JENNER - The next one relating to the Oswalds.
Mrs. PAINE - Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - And you have testified about that entry and that event?
Mrs. PAINE - I have.
Mr. JENNER - Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - All right; now drop down to June, please.
Mrs. PAINE - No entries relating to the Oswalds in June.
Mr. JENNER - Turn the page and go to the calendar for July.
Mrs. PAINE - I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the right date, and that is all.
Mr. JENNER - Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Would you identify them, please?
Mrs. PAINE - On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans to go back to----
Mrs. PAINE - And this was written shortly after that event.
Mr. JENNER - To go back to Texas?
Mrs. PAINE - On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." meaning New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - When was that entry made?
Mrs. PAINE - These were both made after our arrival back.
Mr. JENNER - But shortly afterwards?
Mrs. PAINE - Very shortly.
Mr. JENNER - Did you say you had a luncheon engagement?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come back?
Mrs. PAINE - Sure.
Mr. JENNER - It is now I o'clock. We will be back at 2. Could you finish this calendar?
Mrs. PAINE - We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously.
Mr. JENNER - That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland Hospital for the birth of her child?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."
Mr. JENNER - You had it in the wrong place initially?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And then you put it in the right place eventually?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be Parkland. I would be certain it was.
Mr. JENNER - Were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record?
Mrs. PAINE - All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance.
Mr. JENNER - How soon after the assassination did you make that corrected entry?
Mrs. PAINE - Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."
Mr. JENNER - And that refers to Marina's child Rachel?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That means exactly what it says.
Mr. JENNER - And was it entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER - The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; right after.
Mr. JENNER - Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas "Junie" she had a clinic appointment.
Mr. JENNER - That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - The older daughter.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right. You asked me at some time during my testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.
Mr. JENNER - What day is this?
Mrs. PAINE - On Saturday, the 2d of November.
Mr. JENNER - This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he wasn't out.
Mr. JENNER - You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November 1.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And do you have an entry to that effect?
Mrs. PAINE - No, I did not mark that down.
Mr. JENNER - Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?
Mrs. PAINE - I have no clear recollection.
Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.
Mr. JENNER - And that was probably an entry made in advance to, remind you that she had a dental appointment?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home.
Mr. JENNER - What date is this?
Mrs. PAINE - Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday.
Mr. JENNER - It is a Monday. And he was at home?
Mrs. PAINE - He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the morning.
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means.
He was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.
In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, "1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was changed.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit?
Mrs. PAINE - There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had X-rays taken.
Mr. JENNER - Could those double entries indicate that?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, there were three entries. She only went twice.
Mr. JENNER - I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times?
Mrs. PAINE - It is possible.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Have you identified all three entries now?
Mrs. PAINE - I have.
There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference. There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m, Lynn Lollar."
Mr. JENNER - How do you spell Lynn?
Mrs. PAINE - L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which I have testified. There is also in pencil----
Mr. JENNER - Its significance is that it took you out of the home.
Mrs. PAINE - That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina. This brings us to December.
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?
Mrs. PAINE - That is exactly it.
Mr. JENNER - Would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned. Parenthood Clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to.
Mr. JENNER - Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family.
Mr. JENNER - And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting or session, visit?
Mrs. PAINE - Her husband was killed before it was time to go.
Mr. JENNER - That is, Lee Oswald was?
Mrs. PAINE - One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.
Mr. JENNER - Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE - I go on to December.
There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept.
There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER - What do you mean "well baby"?
Mrs. PAINE - That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I might have skipped that.
Mr. JENNER - I think you did.
Mrs. PAINE - There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock."
Mr. JENNER - And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child?
Mrs. PAINE - June.
Mr. JENNER - June. Did that include Rachel as well?
Mrs. PAINE - Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks.
Mr. JENNER - That Marina should?
Mrs. PAINE - No, that is the baby.
Mr. JENNER - The baby June?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation.
Mr. JENNER - Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic? Of course, that never took place.
Mrs. PAINE - I might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic.
Mr. JENNER - That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the 1st of the year?
Mrs. PAINE - I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this Just adds to that indication.
Mr. JENNER - So that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - To live with him?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
There is also a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks".
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me.
The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Just a minute.
No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.
Mr. JENNER - What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on November 5, 1963----
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on December 5, 1963----
Mrs. PAINE - December 3.
Mr. JENNER - December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year.
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this.
Mr. JENNER - I wish you would, on that.
Mrs. PAINE - We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in Irving----
Mr. JENNER - When was that?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, though they might have records of it.
Mr. JENNER - I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really----
Mrs. PAINE - It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after the baby was born.
Mr. JENNER - And was it in the month of October?
Mrs. PAINE - Probably.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - And we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in Irving.
Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I discussed where it would be best for her to have her----
Mr. JENNER - Her clinic care?
Mrs. PAINE - Her association, her clinic, yes.
Mr. JENNER - And during the course of that conversation, go on----
Mrs. PAINE - Marina expressed the opinion that it would continue in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER - Because----
Mrs. PAINE - Because they would be again in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER - And that squared with your impressions at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - Indeed it did.
Mr. JENNER - Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER - Return to the record.
Mrs. PAINE - There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go a child is ailing.
Mr. JENNER - And who was ailing? Or possibly so?
Mrs. PAINE - My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building to the TB clinic.
Oh, no; I recall now why we went.
At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial Clinic.
Mr. JENNER - F-r-e-e-m-a-n?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June has---I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. This was on her rummy.
Mr. JENNER - It was on Maria's?
Mrs. PAINE - It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that was done.
My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. JENNER - This was a part of the postnatal care?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - For Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret Service. That is all.
Mr. JENNER - Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them?
Mrs. PAINE - Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised.
Mr. JENNER - Surprised? Why?
Mrs. PAINE - If they had. They had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it.
Mr. JENNER - All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right. We will adjourn until 2:15.

(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

Mr. JENNER - We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the Oswalds?
The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.
Mr. JENNER - Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, the left and right hand.
Mrs. PAINE - These have no significance to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER - The next is the B page, left and right.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance.
Mr. JENNER - Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is employed?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - The next page is the C page, left-hand.
Mrs. PAINE - You are still on B.
Mr. JENNER - I am what?
Mrs. PAINE - You are still on B.
Mr. JENNER - The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the B page, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - Anything on there relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.
Mr. JENNER - Other than that?
Mrs. PAINE - Other than that, no significance.
Mr. JENNER - The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page of the D page.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing there related to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER - The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first page of the D page.
Mrs. PAINE - Also nothing related.
Mr. JENNER - The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first page of the E page.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing there.
Mr. JENNER - Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of the E page.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER - Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the F page.
Mrs. PAINE - I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she did not understand me. And I heard other people there is a book store where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.
Mr. JENNER - Is this located in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - This is in New York City. And----
Mr. JENNER - You have not frequented that place before?
Mrs. PAINE - I have been in there before, yes; in a different year.
Mr. JENNER - Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted?
Mrs. PAINE - No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know English fluently to get a job if there were a Russian-speaking community, where Russian could be used. That is all.
Mr. JENNER - Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G page.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER - Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G page.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here.
Mr. JENNER - And her son-in-law is?
Mrs. PAINE - Ilya Mamantov.
Mr. JENNER - And at the bottom of the page?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.
Mr. JENNER - Nothing else?
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER - The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing significant there.
Mr. JENNER - Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to that your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned.
Mr. JENNER - Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have their address.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page.
Mrs. PAINE - Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian student appears here, Bill Hootkins.
Mr. JENNER - And his telephone number----
Mrs. PAINE - Is there; yes.
Mr. JENNER - The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two page---the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?
Mrs. PAINE - None; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.
Mr. JENNER - Next would be----there are some empty pages. We better record that fact. The reverse side----
Mrs. PAINE - They are not in your exhibit.
Mr. JENNER - As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. But they are not in the exhibit.
Mr. JENNER - Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated.
Mrs. PAINE - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER - And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top of the list of letters.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page in which the top letter is L.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing here.
Mr. JENNER - And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. Look at both pages, please.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Mutter.
Mr. JENNER - 757 French Street, New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Telephone number HU 8-4326.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - How long after? You mean while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE - Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer.
Mr. JENNER - It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - There is one above that, is there not?
Mrs. PAINE - And I believe this person has been referred to in testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, summer Russian school.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is M.
Mrs. PAINE - This just gives a current address for the same person--Helen Mamikonian.
Mr. JENNER - Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is N.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing significant here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter P.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for Marina.
Mr. JENNER - No other entry of significance on that page?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which is Q.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is the page the top letter of which is R.
Mrs. PAINE - Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts.
Mr. JENNER - Those are your next door neighbors?
Mrs. PAINE - Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in testimony---that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.
Mr. JENNER - Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h although you do not have it so entered. The next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also S. It is the opposite----
Mrs. PAINE - The last one you had was facing.
Mr. JENNER - And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.
Mr. JENNER - By the way, would you identify the Strattons?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have know from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.
Mr. JENNER - Nothing else on the S page?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as U.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; no significance here.
Mr. JENNER - But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance here.
Mr. JENNER - The next is a page the top letter of which is Y.
Mrs. PAINE - No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.
Mr. JENNER - Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the Youngs?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And there are three entries.
Mrs. PAINE - No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my relatives.
Mr. JENNER - That is a different Young entirely?
Mrs. PAINE - That is.
Mr. JENNER - But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles Morris--those are your in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE - And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young.
Mr. JENNER - Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father?
Mrs. PAINE - Father.
Mr. JENNER - And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, Michael Ralph Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?
Mrs. PAINE - I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word I didn't understand.
She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. I thing she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.
She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified to this.
I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did---I should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy.
She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed.
She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother.
Mr. JENNER - Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America while she was in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.
Mr. JENNER - I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE - I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to America?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that this was also a hope on her part.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's personality, her character, her integrity.
Mrs. PAINE - We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward religion as negative or positive?
Mrs. PAINE - This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.
Mr. JENNER - By the way, did she have her children baptized in this country?
Mrs. PAINE - One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me in March of 1963----one of the first times I went to see her at their apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for June, and was Pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely.
Mr. JENNER - In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always turned to this portion----
Mr. JENNER - Legitimate theater?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. She turned to this portion----
Mr. JENNER - When you say town, you mean Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia originating in America, in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - Possibly. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER - What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she did not.
She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.
Mr. JENNER - Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER - Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE - Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.
Mr. JENNER - You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a woman.

Mrs. PAINE - I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.
Mr. JENNER - But you say she is an appreciative person?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully convinced her.
Mr. JENNER - Well, is there anthing you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?
Mrs. PAINE - I think I have said the bulk of it.
Mr. JENNER - I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.
Mrs. PAINE - My opinion is that she could not have been.
Mr. JENNER - She was not and could not have been?
Mrs. PAINE - Was not and could not have been.
Mr. JENNER - I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have been?
Mrs. PAINE - My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on the evening of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER - 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - After we had returned from the police station.
Mr. JENNER - You had returned to your home after being at the police station?
Mrs. PAINE - We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through translation from Lee, and that she thought----
Mr. JENNER - What do you mean translation?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such indication of dislike from Lee to her.
Mr. JENNER - Now, this impressed you why?
Mrs. PAINE - I just record that she said it.
Mr. JENNER - It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her groping as to why her husband committed this act?
Mrs. PAINE - Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the same way she told me that----
Mr. JENNER - That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the President?
Mrs. PAINE - It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of hurt.
Mr. JENNER - Hurt what?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense.
Mr. JENNER - That is, rather than defense of him?
Mrs. PAINE - Of him; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957-- [See Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "Last Saturday I started, Russian class," and that was your class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of Russian. Do you recall such a letter?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I wrote it.
Mr. JENNER - In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages.
Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?
Mrs. PAINE - Socially?
Mr. JENNER - Would be socially useful to you.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't understand what that meant.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?
Mrs. PAINE - It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in Russian exchange."
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.
Mr. JENNER - And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word "calling" in the testimony.
Mr. JENNER - And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words---intellectual decision?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.
Mr. JENNER - As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you?
Mrs. PAINE - I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual decision.
Mr. JENNER - I assume you meant a deliberate one.
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - One of intellectual curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE - I would judge so.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October 1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family-- that is, those back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what was--Essie?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, I think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.
Mr. JENNER - In which you then said you were thinking about studying Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you might have said then?
Mrs. PAINE - It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the time than I do now.
Mr. JENNER - But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I would like to know if you had any conversations with Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting interviews by the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.
Mr. JENNER - You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - His political views?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I believe I have told you all.
Mr. JENNER - Any particular books in which he was interested?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know of any books.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - None that I saw him read.
Mr. JENNER - You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And any conversations you had with him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE - That was never mentioned.
Mr. JENNER - By either she or him?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right. Not by either one.
Mr. JENNER - You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted to defect----
Mrs. PAINE - Only through reading the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER - Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.
Mr. JENNER - When did you first learn of that?
Mrs. PAINE - From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.
Mr. JENNER - Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?
Mrs. PAINE - Never, to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - Did she?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Either for himself individually or for his family?
Mrs. PAINE - No; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.
Mr. JENNER - I think you told us that this morning.
Mrs. PAINE - It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I mentioned it.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her?
Mrs. PAINE - We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina appeared.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, I see. What was said on that score?
Mrs. PAINE - She thought it was misleading.
Mr. JENNER - That the article itself was misleading?
Mrs. PAINE - Further, she thought it was unkind to her.
Mr. JENNER - Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?
Mrs. PAINE - Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.
Mr. JENNER - Well, what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE - I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.
Mr. JENNER - Did she respond to that comment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall any particular thing she said.
Mr. JENNER - Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.
Mr. JENNER - Tell us that.
Mrs. PAINE - We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.
Mr. JENNER - That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.
Mr. JENNER - She was aware of that distinction?
Did she indicate an awareness of that?
Mrs. PAINE - She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.
Mr. JENNER - Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?
Mrs. PAINE - There isn't anything at all.
Mr. JENNER - Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.
Mr. JENNER - Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?
Mrs. PAINE - There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.
Mr. JENNER - And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE - No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - All that I recall.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?

Mrs. PAINE - I have related all my recollections.
Mr. JENNER - Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER - Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.
Mr. JENNER - And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers Party.
Mrs. PAINE - Nor was I aware of any such contact.
Mr. JENNER - Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?
I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?
Mrs. PAINE - I have heard the word used a great deal.
Mr. JENNER - A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.
Mrs. PAINE - I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.
But I think he did enjoy talking with other people at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.
And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.
Mr. JENNER - I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this-because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - He never mentioned anyone he knew.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr. JENNER - That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?
Mrs. PAINE - I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.
I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.
I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.
Mr. JENNER - In his presence?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.
Mr. JENNER - What is your impression of Robert Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs. PAINE - By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.
Mr. JENNER - And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.
Mr. JENNER - Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the diginity of her husband?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.
Mr. JENNER - That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER - Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.
Mr. JENNER - To recall, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE - To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.
Mr. JENNER - Peter is the father or the son?
Mrs. PAINE - Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar?
Mrs. PAINE - I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?
Mrs. PAINE - Except possibly some literature.
Mr. JENNER - Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Around 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. JENNER - I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.
Mrs. PAINE - It certainly did not stem from any such interest.
Mr. JENNER - And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it does not.
Mr. JENNER - I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?
Mrs. PAINE - I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.
Mr. JENNER - But you are opposed to violence?
Mrs. PAINE - I am.
Mr. JENNER - Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?
Mrs. PAINE - There are several things I might say in reply to that.
First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.
I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not-- when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.
On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.
I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet----
Mr. JENNER - Perused?
Mrs. PAINE - More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.

I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears---much more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just makes more poignant my grief.
Mr. JENNER - I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE - I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.
Mrs. PAINE - And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?
Mr. JENNER - That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE - I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.
Mr. JENNER - Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - I assume that means Russian language-----
Mrs. PAINE - Training?
Mr. JENNER - Trn.
Mrs. PAINE - Probably. It is not familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER - Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.
Mrs. PAINE - Could it be hospitality?
Mr. JENNER - It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth.-Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.
Mrs. PAINE - This organization is not familiar to me.
May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.
Mr. JENNER - This is Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE - Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?
Mr. JENNER - Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - Did he visit on other than weekends?
Mrs. PAINE - Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.
Mr. JENNER - He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?
Mrs. PAINE - Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?
Mrs. PAINE - I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.
And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.
I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.
Mr. JENNER - Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?
Mrs. PAINE - I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.
I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.
Mr. JENNER - You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.
Mr. JENNER - Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?
Mrs. PAINE - No; they made no such inquiry.
Mr. JENNER - And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they would be the same.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.
Mrs. PAINE - Marina testified, did you say?
Mr. JENNER - Yes. What impression do you have in that respect I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.
Mrs. PAINE - On what day?
Mr. JENNER - Fourth of October 1963.
Mrs. PAINE - No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of October.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; I said that.
Mrs. PAINE - But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that----
Mr. JENNER - Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - None.
Mr. JENNER - None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, at no time from October--including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE - That he was carrying?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - My statement is correct?
Mrs. PAINE - I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.
Mr. JENNER - Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.
Mr. JENNER - Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE - Future pregnancies; yes.
Mr. JENNER - It was devoted solely to that?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.
Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.

Mrs. PAINE - I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is a rather larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.
Mr. JENNER - I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or----
Mr. JENNER - It is the antithesis of democracy?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.
Mr. JENNER - And that is abhorent to you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER - I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?
Mrs. PAINE - I have an aversion.
Mr. JENNER - Have you ever studied Karl Marx?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.
Mr. JENNER - Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. And they were very brief.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever read the Manifesto?
Mrs. PAINE - The Communist Manifesto?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - That was part of the same course.
Mr. JENNER - But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And you did not pursue it thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital would your answers be the same?
Mrs. PAINE - I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, you have not read it?
Mrs. PAINE - I have not read it.
Mr. JENNER - Even in connection with a college course?
Mrs. PAINE - Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.
Mr. JENNER - I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE - I certainly do not.
Mr. JENNER - And quite the contrary.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE - I am.
Mr. JENNER - What have been your activities in connection with that organization?
Mrs. PAINE - Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.
Mr. JENNER - And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE - I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. JENNER - Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?
Mrs. PAINE - My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.
Mr. JENNER - With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?
Mrs. PAINE - He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.
Mr. JENNER - Or might be?
Mrs. PAINE - Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.
Mr. JENNER - At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I had not heard that name.
Mr. JENNER - And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - No; that is right.
Mr. JENNER - You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.
Mrs. PAINE - It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8- or 10 -year-old's vocabulary.
Mr. JENNER - You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; you are.
You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8- to 10-year-old?
Mrs. PAINE - My vocabulary----
Mr. JENNER - I mean sentence construction.
Mrs. PAINE - An 8- to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8- or 10- year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many more mistakes.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when you compose a letter?
Mrs. PAINE - My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?
Mrs. PAINE - I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.
Mr. JENNER - Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?
Mrs. PAINE - He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.
Mr. JENNER - He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?
Mrs. PAINE - He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.
Mr. JENNER - Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE - I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.
Mr. JENNER - Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?
Mrs. PAINE - I gathered so.
Mr. JENNER - Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say it in his presence?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.

Mr. JENNER - Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.
Mrs. PAINE - I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United States, and his difficulties in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE - My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.
Mr. JENNER - And she rather than Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject----
Mrs. PAINE - Of things he had told me himself?
Mr. JENNER - That is right. That emanated from him.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't think of anything.
Mr. JENNER - Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.
Mr. JENNER - Borrowed it from the State Department?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say it was unusual?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.
Mr. JENNER - That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.
Mrs. PAINE - I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?
Mr. JENNER - Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.
Mrs. PAINE - She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.
Mr. JENNER - Unusual in what sense?
Mrs. PAINE - That most women in Russia both did work and had to financially.
Mr. JENNER - Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?
Mrs. PAINE - That was the impression it left me with, yes.
She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?
Mr. JENNER - Anywhere in Russia.
Mrs. PAINE - Including her family background?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.
Mr. JENNER - She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand.
Mr. JENNER - You mean job in the sense of position?
Mrs. PAINE - Position. I never did understand how responsible this was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.

Mr. JENNER - Did she ever speak of her father?
Mrs. PAINE - She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.
Mr. JENNER - Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so---that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters---hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.
Mr. JENNER - This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did she indicate any reaction to that?
Mrs. PAINE - She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason, and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't recall it.
Mr. JENNER - And her visiting him every day?
Mrs. PAINE - I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it--I am not sure I remember now.
Mr. JENNER - Have we exhausted you on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE - I am exhausted.
Mr. JENNER - What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.
Mr. JENNER - There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to---among Russian emigres to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.
Mr. JENNER - Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now relate?
Mrs. PAINE - I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.
I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.

Mr. JENNER - Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?
Mrs. PAINE - That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.
Mrs. PAINE - You wish my opinion now?
It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false---but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.
Mr. JENNER - From that, you conclude what?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.
Mr. JENNER - What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in what sense?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.
Mr. JENNER - You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?
Mrs. PAINE - And, of course, that is rationalization.
Mr. JENNER - That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I think that is all.
Mr. JENNER - What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?
Mrs. PAINE - I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.
Mr. JENNER - Well, that may be affected---of course, you must understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.
Mrs. PAINE - Right.
Mr. JENNER - But subject to that, it is your feeling that she there is a-----
Mrs. PAINE - Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case.
I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.
Mr. JENNER - But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?
Mrs. PAINE - That would be my opinion.
Mr. JENNER - I See. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she never did.
Mr. JENNER - Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - That she suspected it?
Mrs. PAINE - Absolutely nothing.
Mr. JENNER - Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.
Mr. JENNER - In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.
I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.
And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement.
Mr. JENNER - What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?
Mrs. PAINE - I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.
Mr. JENNER - Batista?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes---which is not saying a great deal.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.
Mrs. PAINE - I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.
Mr. JENNER - Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know as I can put a term on it.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that the extent of your impression as to that period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE - It was my impression that he had been looking for work.
Mr. JENNER - And you had no other impression?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - During the period that Marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily arise?
Mrs. PAINE - Are you asking did I arise earlier than she?
Mr. JENNER - No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she did.
Mrs. PAINE - I usually got up around 7:30 or 8.
Mr. JENNER - When did she arise?
Mrs. PAINE - A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment.
Mr. JENNER - In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier?
Mrs. PAINE - She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.
Mr. JENNER - I see.
Mrs. PAINE - But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home?
Mrs. PAINE - I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.
Mr. JENNER - Did she ever show you any correspondence she received?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.
Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country?
Mrs. PAINE - I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she arrived.
Mr. JENNER - And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?
Mrs. PAINE - Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?
Mr. JENNER - Either of the Oswalds, together or separately.
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection, you have a full account.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and Marina and Lee together?
Mrs. PAINE - There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil Liberties Union meeting.
Mr. JENNER - Have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you really have any common interest?
Mrs. PAINE - With Marina?
Mr. JENNER - Well, any common interest with Lee did you have any?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not really.
Mr. JENNER - And any activities with him?
Mrs. PAINE - Car driving teaching.
Mr. JENNER - That's about all?
Mrs. PAINE - That's it.
Mr. JENNER - And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and Marina on the other?
Mrs. PAINE - Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?
Mr. JENNER - Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it.
Mrs. PAINE - And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children.
Mr. JENNER - But you had no common--you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - No---that's right. You mean which took us to a group with other people?
Mr. JENNER - Other groups, civic activities generally.
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But there was no plan or direction to those activities.
Mrs. PAINE - None.
Mr. JENNER - Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and sources of funds?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket package and the gun in the package?
Mrs. PAINE - On the 23d?
Mr. JENNER - Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the 22d of November, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None that I recall; nor the day following, either.
Mr. JENNER - Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - That is the only thing I recall.
Mr. JENNER - Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; the only time.
Mr. JENNER - Or use of it.
I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home or premises.
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in mind.
I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have reached the end.
You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence.
Mrs. PAINE - None.
Mr. JENNER - And you never kept any?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex. in the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in Houston?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so or not.
Mr. JENNER - He did not identify the friend?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I was curious, though, about that.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything about having any connections or friends in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE - No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER - But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in Philadelphia.
Mrs. PAINE - He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while she was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE - There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.
Mr. JENNER - But you know of no other?
Mrs. PAINE - I cannot think of any other.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?
Mrs. PAINE - No; in Dallas?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - I do not recall that $310 a month?
Mr. JENNER - Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mrs. PAINE - And he was definitely offered such a job?
Mr. JENNER - Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.
Mrs. PAINE - I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through--that there was not that possibility.
Mr. JENNER - Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please relate that to me?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall some reference to----
Mr. JENNER - How did it come about?
Mrs. PAINE - From Lee, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER - And was it at the time, or just right----
Mrs. PAINE - It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.
Mr. JENNER - And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.
Mr. JENNER - But that was----
Mrs. PAINE - That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER - Of his report to you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But you do recall his discussing it.
Mrs. PAINE - I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job itself.
Mr. JENNER - I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."

(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)

It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed "Ruth."
Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER - Did you prepare and transmit the original?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - When did you do that?
Mrs. PAINE - That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.

Mr. JENNER - All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.
Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, examination of that letter which I completely had forgotten.
Mr. JENNER - Having that----
Mrs. PAINE - It sounds like a very valid description----
Mr. JENNER - Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.
Mr. JENNER - And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when?
Mrs. PAINE - This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.
Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically Russian--as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within.
Mr. JENNER - And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from your--inner prompting.
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.
Mrs. PAINE - I would think so.
Mr. JENNER - That that is your present recollection.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.
Mr. JENNER - Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?
Mrs. PAINE - No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.
Mr. JENNER - You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE - It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.
Mr. JENNER - I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - About how many?
Mrs. PAINE - There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.
Mr. JENNER - Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary.
Mr. JENNER - Was that an English-Russian, or just----
Mrs. PAINE - Just English.
Mr. JENNER - Was that your dictionary or was it his?
Mrs. PAINE - It was not mine.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question.
Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?
Mrs. PAINE - I have no feeling of that sort.
Mr. JENNER - Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?
Mrs. PAINE - Except your question.
Mr. JENNER - Pardon?
Mrs. PAINE - Except your question.
Mr. JENNER - Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.
Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?
Mrs. PAINE - I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall at any time during the period he was in home that you saw such a movie on television?
Mrs. PAINE - I know I did not.
Mr. JENNER - You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at late one evening at a spy movie on television.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. I think German World War II variety.
Mr. JENNER - It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - That is my clear recollection.
Mr. JENNER - There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.
Mrs. PAINE - It certainly does.
Mr. JENNER - I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, there is no recollection whatever.
Mr. JENNER - Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.
Mrs. PAINE - Of that sort of thing.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did she mention the Manner Bakery?
Mrs. PAINE - Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.
Mr. JENNER - And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum Co.?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER - At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.
Mr. JENNER - Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d. of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER - Would you tell us about that?
Mrs. PAINE - I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to----

Mr. JENNER - Would that be a nontoll call?
Mrs. PAINE - That was a toll call.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.
Mr. JENNER - Did he speak with you on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?
Mr. JENNER - I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?
Mrs. PAINE - That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did come.
Mr. JENNER - And when did he come?
Mrs. PAINE - My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.
My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.
Mr. JENNER - All right. And how long did he stay?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.
Mr. JENNER - Did he visit with both you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER - And were arrangements made for his return on another occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.
Mr. JENNER - And was this strictly a social call?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.
Mr. JENNER - Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE - No; he was not.
Mr. JENNER - I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE - No; he was not.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.
Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22.
Mrs. PAINE - I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including November 22.
Mr. JENNER - Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.
Mr. JENNER - This was after November 22?
Mrs. PAINE - It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.
I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said----
Mr. JENNER - That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that---I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.
We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to this Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.
Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.
I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.
Mr. JENNER - And some few small articles were purchased?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - And you arrived home when--about noon?
Mrs. PAINE - For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained, Marina, both at once.
Mr. JENNER - What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Did he look at television?
Mrs. PAINE - My guess is that he certainly looked at television.
Mr. JENNER - Did you leave your home late that afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE - I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.
Mr. JENNER - And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?
Mrs. PAINE - No, we did not stop at a car dealers.
Mr. JENNER - What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?
Mrs. PAINE - I think he could not have been.
Mr. JENNER - Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?
Mrs. PAINE - It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.
Mrs. PAINE - The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?
Mr. JENNER - Yes, please.
Mrs. PAINE - It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER - That is Sunday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE - On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.
Mr. JENNER - The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right
Mr. JENNER - And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And----
Mrs. PAINE - After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.
Mr. JENNER - You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And that was out in the open.
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?
Mrs. PAINE - Two of them.
Mr. JENNER - Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?
Mrs. PAINE - Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not them at that time. He was using it at his shop.
Mr. JENNER - So yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - At his quarters?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I meant the place of work.
Mr. JENNER - At Bell Helicopter?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.
Mrs. PAINE - That's my opinion.
Mr. JENNER - Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.
Mrs. PAINE - I was certainly not conscious of it.
Mr. JENNER - Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex. residing or staying as a guest in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?
Mrs. PAINE - When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to---definite plans to teach for the summer.
She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.
After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.
Mr. JENNER - And you so told her?
Mrs. PAINE - And I told her so, after she had written a letter.
Mr. JENNER - And that letter of hers is in evidence?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it is not. She only refers to having written this letter.
Mr. JENNER - Exhibit 415?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful. On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our appreciation.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I am very glad to be of help.
Mr. JENNER - We have no further questions as of this time. Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.
Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.
Mrs. PAINE - I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.
Mr. JENNER - It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.
Mrs. PAINE - Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.
Mr. JENNER - Thank you.

Mr. JENNER - Let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on Saturday.
Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear you?
Mrs. PAINE - You may affirm me.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. PAINE - To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.
Mr. JENNER - Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.
We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window.
Mrs. PAINE - The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of it--it's around 43 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER - Shall we measure it, then?

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements discussed.)

Mr. JENNER - The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you recite it, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches high.
Mr. JENNER - Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches high?
Agent HOWLETT - Right.
Mrs. PAINE - That's not very wide is it--39 inches?
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence?
Mrs. PAINE - I'll do my best.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)

Mr. JENNER - Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE - My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now see Mr. Howlett's car.
Mr. JENNER - I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE - Street.
Mr. JENNER - On Fifth Street.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is that, an elm or oak?
Mrs. PAINE - It is an oak.
Mr. JENNER - An oak tree---I would say about 26 inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know--I guess it is a two-door.
Mr. JENNER - It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts home.
Mrs. PAINE - No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home that's not now used.
Mr. JENNER - The house is not occupied--that home?
Mrs. PAINE - It has not been occupied for over a year.
Mr. JENNER - That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.
It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you last fall?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the Paine premises?
Mrs. PAINE - I would like to put my children to bed now.
Mr. JENNER - Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.
It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.
Agent HOWLETT - Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?
Agent HOWLETT - I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers.
Mr. JENNER - You can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers?
Agent HOWLETT - That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.
Mr. JENNER - All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.

(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; you were accurate.
Mr. JENNER - On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for a second time to interview you?
Mrs. PAINE - I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that day--yes.
Mr. JENNER - While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st of November?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?
Mrs. PAINE - I'm trying to think what else was going on.
Mr. JENNER - Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE - My best estimate it was afternoon.
Mr. JENNER - I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was during the day.
Mr. JENNER - What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?
Mrs. PAINE - It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm not sure-- absolutely certain of that.
Mr. JENNER - By the way, was it Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.
Mr. JENNER - And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, just barely across the threshold.
Mr. JENNER - Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?
Mrs. PAINE - No; they did not.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ascertain that license number?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - Did you make any attempt to do so?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I made no attempt to.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - She was in my home.
Mr. JENNER - When they arrived, where was she in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.
Mr. JENNER - Was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the FBI automobile?
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing was said that might indicate that.
Mr. JENNER - Or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER - Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of November I when he had interviewed you?
Mrs. PAINE - This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me----
Mr. JENNER - You had noticed that at the time?
Mrs. PAINE - I had noticed that.
Mr. JENNER - And how did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE - I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits.
Mr. JENNER - And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street?
Mrs. PAINE - The first time.
Mr. JENNER - The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And her home is next door to the west?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right--2519.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we have used the general term "down the street," which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?
Mrs. PAINE - How did we use the term?
Mr. JENNER - You said he said he parked down the street.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the Ponders used to live in.
Mr. JENNER - The whom?
Mrs. PAINE - The Ponders.
Mr. JENNER - P-o-n-d-e-r-s .[spelling]?
Mrs. PAINE - P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and----
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, that's east.
Mrs. PAINE - The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and whatever it is--you know, Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER - Is that the crossroad?
Mrs. PAINE - In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the Randles.
Mr. JENNER - Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her.
Mr. JENNER - Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that day--November lst?
Mrs. PAINE - I believe I did--yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away?
Mrs. PAINE - There was only one the first time.
Mr. JENNER - All right.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I did.
Mr. JENNER - Where was Marina on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - She was in the living room with me.
Mr. JENNER - Was she beside you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Were you both looking out the window?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best I can recall.
Mr. JENNER - And had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November lst?
Mrs. PAINE - Not with 20-40 vision.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have 20-40 vision?
Mrs. PAINE - It's 20-40 or 20-50---I forget.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with 20-20 vision?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't have an opinion.
Mr. JENNER - Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall at all.
Mr. JENNER - Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE - My best recollection is that I had already taken my attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did not notice whether he passed in front of the house.
Mr. JENNER - At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - And seek to ascertain the number?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know whether Marina did?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know whether she could have?
Mrs. PAINE - That's possible she might have if one can see that with normal vision.
Mr. JENNER - So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.
Mr. JENNER - And what was your impression, if you had any?
Mrs. PAINE - I have none.
Mr. JENNER - You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER - Were you thinking of them on the fifth?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I notice you have a bathtub shower?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?
Mrs. PAINE - He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before dinner.
Mr. JENNER - Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall his having done so.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE - I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.
Mr. JENNER - I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?
Mrs. PAINE - If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.
Mr. JENNER - Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that--whether you could hear it.
Mrs. PAINE - I would certainly hear it.
Mr. JENNER - And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr. JENNER - And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs. PAINE - I made no notice such as that.
Mr. JENNER - Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I can't say as it is.
Mr. JENNER - You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?
Mrs. PAINE - No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)

Mr. JENNER - Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.
The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And that door opens onto what?
Mrs. PAINE - It goes into the garage.
Mr. JENNER - Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.
Agent HOWLETT - It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside jamb.
Mr. JENNER - So that the space west----
Mrs. PAINE - That's east, I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER - The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how wide is that?
Agent HOWLETT - It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.
Mr. JENNER - And how high?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 6 feet 8 1/2 inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?
Mrs. PAINE - It lights the light in the dining area.
Mr. JENNER - And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE - I would expect so.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall that it did?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which included that area.
Mr. JENNER - That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.
Agent HOWLETT - It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.
Mr. JENNER - It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?
Agent HOWLETT - It is actually about 6 3/4 inches to the center of the light switch.
Mrs. PAINE - My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage floor as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE - The outside garage door--the large one?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. PAINE - It is closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. JENNER - And the door that is leading into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. JENNER - None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I arrived?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And would you snap it on?
Mrs. PAINE - (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)
Mr. JENNER - And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER - And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?
Agent HOWLETT - It is also 4 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER - And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?
Agent HOWLETT - Six and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER - And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?
Agent HOWLETT - Right.
Mr. JENNER - So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 21 feet 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, let's get it across.
Agent HOWLETT - It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Agent HOWLETT - Yes
Mr. JENNER - And it is how many feet and inches deep?
Agent HOWLETT - Three feet one inch deep.
Mr. JENNER - Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER - And I judge well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?
Agent HOWLETT - From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is I foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.
Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I suppose so.
Mr. JENNER - And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in there in the storeroom.

Mr. JENNER - All right, that's an interesting development. When the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE - I think I would have noticed it.
Mr. JENNER - When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.
Mr. JENNER - Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?
Mrs. PAINE - I surely would have.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet?
Agent HOWLETT - Roughly--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall its ever having had a cover.
Mr. JENNER - And did you have occasion----
Mrs. PAINE - There was a fan in it for a while--is there now?
Agent HOWLETT - There's an edge of a fan sticking out.
Mrs. PAINE - It has been more recently moved over.
Agent HOWLETT - It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection it was--yes.
Mr. JENNER - I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Which you can push up and slide over easily?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Are you able to do it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE - I never have.
Mr. JENNER - So, you don't know its heft or weight?
Mrs. PAINE - I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.
Mr. JENNER - And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?
Mrs. PAINE - It's a portable fan.
Mr. JENNER - It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - You have no recollection one way or the other?
Mrs. PAINE - None.
Mr. JENNER - Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?
Mrs. PAINE - It could have been.
Mr. JENNER - Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?
Mrs. PAINE - I did not see anyone do that.
Mr. JENNER - I am only asking while you were present--while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection they did.
Mr. JENNER - Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?
Mrs. PAINE - All right.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

The blanket was lying approximately here from about here in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.
Mr. JENNER - Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk?
Mrs. PAINE - No; a student desk.
Mr. JENNER - And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?
Mrs. PAINE - That's an ice chest.
Mr. JENNER - Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also--are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - They are in the same position.
Mr. JENNER - The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - A little fuller.
Mr. JENNER - And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.
Agent HOWLETT - It's 7 feet 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER - The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.
There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER - And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?
Agent HOWLETT - One foot five inches.
Mr. JENNER - It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.
The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?
Agent HOWLETT - Two feet eight inches.
Mr. JENNER - Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box box and place it in the position which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE - That's it.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER - Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board, in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - No; that's the second time it's where it was on November 22.
Mr. JENNER - This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - As I recall--yes.
Mr. JENNER - And it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - One foot eight inches.
Mr. JENNER - And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.
Mr. JENNER - But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?
Agent HOWLETT - The center of it is about 3 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.
Mrs. PAINE - I'll place it where where the outside edge is--where the outside edge of the package was.
Agent HOWLETT - The inside edge?
Mr. JENNER - Which do you say is inside?
Mrs. PAINE - Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?
Mr. JENNER - When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you are standing rather near to the work bench?
Mrs. PAINE - I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.
Mr. JENNER - What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT - Four and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER - And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT - One foot two and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.
Mrs. PAINE - My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?
Agent HOWLETT - Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER - And how wide?
Agent HOWLETT - One foot nine and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER - And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - The saw table is 3 feet 2 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 4 feet 7 inches.
Mr. JENNER - And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 2 feet 7 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't think there is any point in my doing that---I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.
Mr. JENNER - Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.
Mr. JENNER - Now, I will locate the things you have described.
The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.
Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier--the first time?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it was.
Mr. JENNER - The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those?
Mrs. PAINE - Chest of drawers.
Mr. JENNER - They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?
Agent HOWLETT - Two feet one inch.
Mr. JENNER - They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Two feet five inches.
Mr. JENNER - The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?
Mrs. PAINE - With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.
Mr. JENNER - With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE - I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor.
Mr. JENNER - Locate it the best you can.
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You think perhaps, around in four places?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?
Mrs. PAINE - It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.
Mr. JENNER - The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."

(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - It would be utterly impossible.
Mr. JENNER - And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER - Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right?
Mr. JENNER - Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered.
I would guess it had been myself.
Mr. JENNER - Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?
Mrs. PAINE - There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr. JENNER - What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
Mrs. PAINE - Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER - Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?

(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)

Mr. JENNER - I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?
Mrs. PAINE - Two or three.
Mr. JENNER - Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And for what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE - To see what was in it.
Mr. JENNER - Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?
Mrs. PAINE - That's south instead of east.
Mr. JENNER - That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER - The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----

Mrs. PAINE - [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.
Mr. JENNER - All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage facing south?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then, what happened?
Mrs. PAINE - Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."
Mr. JENNER - This was in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you were then--at that point you were standing where?
Mrs. PAINE - I was at that time standing here [indicating].
Mr. JENNER - And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE - The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the----
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?
Mrs. PAINE - Right here in the middle of this----
Mr. JENNER - I'll get that out of your way----
Mrs. PAINE - Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.
Mr. JENNER - She was facing you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER - And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - She was standing there facing and looking at you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER - And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And you were facing north?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER - When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?
Mrs. PAINE - She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.
Mr. JENNER - Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Which you had, already noticed some time prior thereto?
Mrs. PAINE - And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.
Mr. JENNER - The wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said.
Mr. JENNER - And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?
Mrs. PAINE - It seemed to me there was something hard in it.
Mr. JENNER - At that time when you stepped on it?
Mrs. PAINE - At that time.
Mr. JENNER - Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?
Mrs. PAINE - I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal?
Mrs. PAINE - It wilted.
Mr. JENNER - It drooped?
Mrs. PAINE - It folded.
Mr. JENNER - It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - In the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE - That's my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Where do you normally keep it?

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.)

Mrs. PAINE - I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.
Mr. JENNER - And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER - And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.
Mr. JENNER - Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE - I purchased the rolls at some dime store.
Mr. JENNER - Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of this?
Mrs. PAINE - Take all you want.
Mr. JENNER - I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?
Agent HOWLETT - Two feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER - All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.
Agent HOWLETT - That is 3 feet 1 inch.
Mr. JENNER - And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I do.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)

Mr. JENNER - We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?

(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. PAINE - It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr. JENNER - It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. PAINE - From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. JENNER - This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Off the record.
Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package the string was white string and not the dark brown string?
Mrs. PAINE - That's my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE - It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."

(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - You also have something that is really rope in your hand now.
Did you obtain that from that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?
Mrs. PAINE - I would say it is heavier; yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right, we will not bother with that in the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.
Mrs. PAINE - That's right--having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.
Mr. JENNER - And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER - Where is that desk secretary located?
Mrs. PAINE - That desk secretary is in the living room.
Mr. JENNER - Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER - Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?
Mrs. PAINE - It was in the middle of the space between the the middle of the north wall of the living room.
Mr. JENNER - Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position?
Mrs. PAINE - That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary.
Mr. JENNER - And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?
Mrs. PAINE - It was then where it is now.
Mr. JENNER - And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.
Mr. JENNER - So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?
Mrs. PAINE - I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November--that same day that I read the note.
Mr. JENNER - That was a Sunday?
Mrs. PAINE - That was.
Mr. JENNER - And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?
Mrs. PAINE - I opened the flip front and put it in there.
Mr. JENNER - Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing toward Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?
Mrs. PAINE - They were not closed.
Mr. JENNER - They were not closed?
Mrs. PAINE - They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side.
Mr. JENNER - Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?
Mrs. PAINE - I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.
Mr. JENNER - Why not?
Mrs. PAINE - We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and, Marina was to the west.
Mr. JENNER - She was to your right?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And you say you could not have seen them?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, there were several times--I don't----
Mr. JENNER - Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I had not.
Mr. JENNER - You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?
Mrs. PAINE - Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.
Mr. JENNER - So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed----
Mrs. PAINE - As it was.
Mr. JENNER - The door opening onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE - The door was closed.
Mr. JENNER - May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?
Agent HOWLETT - No.
Mr. JENNER - So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?
Mrs. PAINE - The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened the door.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.

(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER - I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?

Mrs. PAINE - All right.

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER - That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?
Agent HOWLETT - There is no sidewalk--there is a curb.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Agent HOWLETT - 42 feet.
Mr. JENNER - Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?
The REPORTER - I have it in the record from his statement 42 feet.
Mr. JENNER - There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?
Agent HOWLETT - It would be 11 feet.
Mr. JENNER - And it is how wide from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT - Seven feet three inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. JENNER - And unobstructed except for the tree?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?
Mrs. PAINE - From the east.
Mr. JENNER - From the east and so you were driving west?
Mrs. PAINE - I was.
Mr. JENNER - And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block--that's across Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER - Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And that's how far?
Mrs. PAINE - Three houses down.
Mr. JENNER - Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But she was not out on the lawn?
Mrs. PAINE - She was not out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER - You pulled up in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)

Mr. JENNER - All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right
Mr. JENNER - Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - And did he come over to your automobile?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - Did you greet him in any fashion?
Mrs. PAINE - My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.
Mr. JENNER - And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE - I did not express it.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE - No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER - Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?
Mrs. PAINE - No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER - Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.
Mr. JENNER - Apology for what?
Mrs. PAINE - For his having come without asking if he could.
Mr. JENNER - What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?
Mrs. PAINE - My impression is she was surprised.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say so?
Mrs. PAINE - Not specifically.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say she had not expected him?
Mrs. PAINE - That's the feeling I gathered.
Mr. JENNER - Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - As well as yours?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not?
Mrs. PAINE - It's a deep freeze.
Mr. JENNER - And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?
Agent HOWLETT - Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER - And that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?
Agent HOWLETT - Correct.
Mr. JENNER - And the deep freeze is how deep?
Agent HOWLETT - It is two feet six inches deep.
Mr. JENNER - And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes; to the wall.
Mr. JENNER - And how high is the deep freeze?
Agent HOWLETT - The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.
Mr. JENNER - And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?
Agent HOWLETT - That's right.
Mrs. PAINE - It is known as a chest style.
Mr. JENNER - In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is--since it is so much your habit---you can't remember the number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?
Mrs. PAINE - I think it highly probable.
Mr. JENNER - Did you prepare the meal that evening?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE - I lacquered two large box blocks.
Mr. JENNER - Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?
Mrs. PAINE - This is one.
Mr. JENNER - You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?
Mrs. PAINE - It's the same thing, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE - I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. They are what I call a large hollow block.
Mr. JENNER - They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?
Mrs. PAINE - That's all right. I describe them as--they are sets anything a child wishes to make it into for play.
Mr. JENNER - One of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And the other is empty?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes as a block and which I describe as a box?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 1/4 inch wide by 2 feet long.
Mr. JENNER - How deep?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 7 1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER - John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side---is that not correct?
Agent HOWLETT - It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five sides and open on the top.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?
Mrs. PAINE - I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.
Mr. JENNER - You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?
Mrs. PAINE - That's quite all right--I will call it a box.
Mr. JENNER - And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening?
Mrs. PAINE - That evening.
Mr. JENNER - How long did that take you?
Mrs. PAINE - About half an hour.
Mr. JENNER - And where were you working?
Mrs. PAINE - I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush.
Mr. JENNER - Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?
Mrs. PAINE - The north end.
Mr. JENNER - Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the evening, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER - What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE - It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.
Mr. JENNER - Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them?
Mrs. PAINE - My best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage.
Mr. JENNER - Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?
Mrs. PAINE - No; it's very likely it was in the central area.
Mr. JENNER - Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE - Somewhat near the saw.
Mr. JENNER - The circular saw or the band saw?
Mrs. PAINE - The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage----
Mrs. PAINE - You mean the overhead door?
Mr. JENNER - No; the regular door into the garage.
Mrs. PAINE - Oh--that--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed?
Mrs. PAINE - I am, indeed.
Mr. JENNER - To the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER - You opened the door, did you?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything?
Mrs. PAINE - I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER - The light where?
Mrs. PAINE - In the garage.
Mr. JENNER - The overhead light?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I believe it is.
Agent HOWLETT - It may be slightly to the center.
Mr. JENNER - It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I believe so.
Mr. JENNER - And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?
Agent HOWLETT - It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.
Mr. JENNER - And it is quite bright, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You noticed that the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Why was that something that drew your attention?
Mrs. PAINE - I knew that I had not left it on.
Mr. JENNER - Had you had any habit in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE - It's my habit to turn the light off.
Mr. JENNER - And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, more appearance than frugality.
Mr. JENNER - And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - I would suppose so.
Mr. JENNER - Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.
Mr. JENNER - But it was who--had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE - That Lee had left the light on.
Mr. JENNER - From that, you concluded that he had what?
Mrs. PAINE - Been in the garage.
Mr. JENNER - Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.
Mr. JENNER - Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your kitchen dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE - I would think so.
Mr. JENNER - And, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE - That would be unquestionably true---if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all.
Mr. JENNER - But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to 9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, I would say.
Mr. JENNER - Were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, they were.
Mr. JENNER - Had you put them to bed that evening?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed preparations.
Mr. JENNER - Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it?
Mrs. PAINE - I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would know it then too.
Mr. JENNER - Well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making.
Mrs. PAINE - I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the, living room.
Mr. JENNER - Moving in and out?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And I think I asked you during your testimony before the Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.
Mr. JENNER - Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Most of what they took I did not see.
Mr. JENNER - I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, "Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on Beckley Street in Dallas.
Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be.

The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see anything that I had seen or have since seen.
Mr. JENNER - You have looked only on page 144.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER - Take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything.
Mrs. PAINE - This is mine.
Mr. JENNER - All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - It is a publication to which you subscribe?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; anyway, I receive it.
Mr. JENNER - And "Friends" mentioned there is what?
Mrs. PAINE - There it refers to Quakers.
Mr. JENNER - The Quakers of your faith?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, from the description--it is microfilm 198.
Mr. JENNER - You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?
Mrs. PAINE - I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.
Mr. JENNER - You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right--I can't tell.
Mr. JENNER - Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out--you have picked out?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home?

Mrs. PAINE - I'm quite certain I did not see well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.
Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.
Mr. JENNER - Well, you can't tell from that description?
Mrs. PAINE - I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what I recall having seen.
Mr. JENNER - What do you recall having seen?
Mrs. PAINE - A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.
Mr. JENNER - Yes, it is--just a moment. Let's go off the record here for a moment.

(Discussion between Counsel Jennet and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER - I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper.
Now, I will ask that at this-place in the deposition the reporter copy pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.

LITERATURE

Name	Place found	Microfilm No.
Application, the Militant	Irving	380
Application slip for FPCC	Beckley	416
Application slips for FPCC ( 187 )	Irving	96
Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," by James Cannon.	Irving	330
Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC.	Irving	319
Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to the U.S," published by FPCC.	Irving	307
Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar."	Irving	308
Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy and Sectarianism."	Irving	304
Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C	Irving	329
Book, foreign language, 2 pages	Irving	201
Book, foreign language, 2 pages	Irving	202
Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Paul Sarte	Irving	313
Booklet, list of Russian and Communist literatures publications.	Irving	309
Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right to Travel" - -	Irving	311
Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960	Irving	320
Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the committed of Democratic Spain.	Irving	310
Book, Russian	Irving	84
Books, Russian (18)	Irving	78-83
Book, Russian Language No. 732648.	Irving	112
Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Josepth Hanson	Irving	305
Book, "Sofia," dated 1962	Irving	324
Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro"	Irving	318
Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming	Beckley	410
Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming	Beckley	410
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Historical," by Keiber and Nelson.	Beckley	409
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Historical" -	Beckley	409
Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Go, New Orleans	Beckley	415
Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., New Orleans.	Irving	335
Handbill FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., New Orleans, La.	Beckley	414
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Join the FPCC	Irving	97
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch.	Irving	300
Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense committee, N.Y.C., Dec. 13, 1962.	Beckley	405
Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962.	Beckley	401
Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963.	Beckley	412
Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., to Lee and Marie.	Beckley	430
Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, re: Ability to translate.	Beckley	413
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald.	Beckley	400
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31, 1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald.	Beckley	406
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963.	Beckley	403
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine, New Orleans.	Beckley	407
Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit House	Beckley	429
Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, 1963.	Irving	363
Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Party, to Oswald.	Beckley	445
Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Press letterhead, to Oswald.	Beckley	438
Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald.	Beckley	404
Magazine, "Friends Word News"	Irving	87
Magazine, "The Militant"	Irving	85
Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Sept. 12, 1963.	Irving	322
Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in black standbehind what appears to be a master of ceremonies dressed in white.	Irving	198
Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Minsk, Russia.	Irving	191
Newspaper, "The Worker"	Irving	86
Newspaper, clipping, re: the President.	Irving	120
Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper.	Irving	98
Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs. John R. Hall.	Irving	270
Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and cartoon regarding defectors ).	Beckley	417
Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway, N.Y.C.	Beckley	413
Newspapers ( 7 ), Russian language	Irving	381
Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Worker, with return envelopes to publishers News Press.	Irving	380
Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by James P. Cannon.	Irving	317
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Lamont	Irving	303
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Curliss Lamont.	Irving	99
Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro.	Irving	312
Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Rocan	Irving	315
Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover	Irving	325
Pamphlets, Russian	Irving	89-94
Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document	Irving	192
Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, fall term, 1963.	Beckley	411
Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled "Automation, a Job Killer."	Irving	321
Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R." (4)	Irving	366
Photos, Fidel Castro (6).	Irving	366
Photo, Fidel Castro	Irving	368
Photo, female Russian workers in radio factory	Irving	332
Photo, Russian workers	Irving	331

Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes--as you recall.
Mr. JENNER - You said you would leave that package in precisely the place wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?
Mrs. PAINE - I have not touched it.
Mr. JENNER - And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mrs. PAINE - It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of the north edge of the workbench.
Mr. JENNER - Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?
Mrs. PAINE - You would do well to look at them both.
Mr. JENNER - Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package-that you have in mind?
Mrs. PAINE - This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian blinds.
Mr. JENNER - The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about 6 1/2 inches high and about 6 1/2 inches through.
While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular.
Agent HOWLETT - That is 2 feet 11 inches.
Mr. JENNER - The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I have described, and Mr. Howlett has--now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance?
Agent HOWLETT - Seven feet and three inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, measure the height of the package.
Mrs. PAINE - While you are up there, measure the one behind you.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; we will.
Agent HOWLETT - The height of the package is about seven inches.
Mr. JENNER - And it is how thick through from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT - Seven inches.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.
The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?
Mrs. PAINE - It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER - And they are of the metal variety, are they not?
Mrs. PAINE - They are.
Mr. JENNER - And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - From where did you obtain this wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE - This must have come around a package or something I had bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.
Mr. JENNER - Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her package back the way it was?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes--for the record.
Mr. JENNER - For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call--M.R. Paine."
Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - It is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance?
Mrs. PAINE - These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came in this package, I have no idea whatever.
Mr. JENNER - Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home?

Mrs. PAINE - It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper.
Mr. JENNER - Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?
Mrs. PAINE - As you said, yes.
Mr. JENNER - This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is also on the shelf.
Agent HOWLETT - The same shelf in behind where the other package was.
Mr. JENNER - And it is how long?
Agent HOWLETT - Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now.
Mr. JENNER - And in general is it a rectangular package?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described?
Agent HOWLETT - No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north end.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?
Mrs. PAINE - My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER - When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not. I mean roll-type.
Mr. JENNER - Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.

(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER - It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.
Mrs. PAINE - All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER - Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how wide?
Agent HOWLETT - Two feet six inches.
Mr. JENNER - And the other one is?
Agent HOWLETT - Three feet six inches.
Mr. JENNER - And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And they are opaque?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Neither is metal?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - The spring to which the shade itself the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. 4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that shelf?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.

Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER - May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record?
Mrs. PAINE - All right.
Mr. JENNER - Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.

(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy tin?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are----
Agent HOWLETT - The white one is 2 feet 3 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion?
Agent HOWLETT - It is 2 feet 3 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?
Agent HOWLETT - About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain rod.
Mr. JENNER - On the cream colored one, and what about the white one?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about 2 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," do they not, a long "U"?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me?
Mrs. PAINE - I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. JENNER - I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE - I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. JENNER - You appear only to have the translation--will you explain that remark?
Mrs. PAINE - The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one Christmas card from Marina.
Mr. JENNER - When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?
Mrs. PAINE - I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them off.
Mr. JENNER - At the time you prepared the originals?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - May I have the translations?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; you may.