TESTIMONY OF ICARUS M. PAPPAS beginning at 15H360...
The testimony of Icarus M. Pappas was taken at 9 a.m., on July 29, 1964, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself for the record.
My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress, in November of last year. As you probably know, the Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to President Johnson on all the facts we are able to determine.
We have asked you to come here in particular this morning, Mr. Pappas, because you were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and you had occasion to meet Jack Ruby.
Now, under the rules of the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition. I might also add that under the Commission's rules, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice in writing before you appear here. So I would ask you at the outset if you did receive a letter from us and when it was that you actually received it.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; actually, I received it Monday afternoon, this being Wednesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then we have not complied with the 3-day notice requirement. But I see you are here. And I presume you are willing to waive the notice requirement.
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes; that is why I came here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any questions you would want to ask me about deposition we are going to take before we get into it?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't think so. I think I may have a question as we go along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free to ask it.
If you will raise your right hand--do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAPPAS. I, do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your name?
Mr. PAPPAS. Icarus M. Pappas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?
Mr. PAPPAS. 301 East 48th Street, Manhattan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. New York?
Mr. PAPPAS. New York City.
Mr. GRIFFIN Were you living there in November of 1963?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you employed at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. WNEW Radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you still employed there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a New York radio station?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you happen to be in Dallas on the 22d of November?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you arrived in Dallas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Approximately 8 p.m., Dallas time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that when you arrived at the airport?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Dallas Police and Courts building some time later that evening?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. It was the city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you to get out there? When would you expect you arrived?
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Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly 8:30, 8:20. It took us as long as it takes to get from the airport to the city hall. And I believe it is about 20 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you went directly to the city hall?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people with you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was with you at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. There were several other reporters and photographers from New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember their names?
Mr. PAPPAS. Only one that I can remember. His name was Bill Saro.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he with?
Mr. PAPPAS. He left United Press--he is with the Herald Tribune, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was with United Press at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. I believe he was with the Herald Tribune at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
You used the word Saro, and it sounds a little like Carroll. I notice in one of the interviews the FBI had with you they reported that one of the people you were with was a man by the name of Carroll, Mickey Carroll of the New York Herald Tribune. Is this the same person?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; Carroll was later on. We worked together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Now, when you arrived at the city hall, where did you first go?
Mr. PAPPAS. We went to the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with any of the officials there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were stopped at the elevator by a police captain, I think, or a lieutenant--some officer--he checked our credentials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, was there any procedure set up for identifying and screening newsmen that you were aware of?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, only the procedure I described--that there was a man posted at the elevator who asked for my identification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not asked to check in with any central office?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time while you were there were you given any instructions by the police department as to where you were to be, where you were allowed to be, and what procedures, if any, were to be followed?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were instructed that we were not to be in the office, the homicide office, where the questioning was going on. We were in the corridor, on the third floor. We were not told--I don't think that any limitations were drawn, or any boundaries beyond which we could not go were laid out for us, except that we were not allowed into the homicide office. And they had a guard outside to make sure of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware of anyone in the police department who was performing liaison responsibilities with the press, or who had some special designation as a person that members of the press should contact?
Mr. PAPPAS. No, no; later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Later meaning--
Mr. PAPPAS. I am talking about the trial. They had a public relations man. The thought flashed across my mind. But that was during the second time I was in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your activities at the police department between the time you arrived and about midnight when District Attorney Wade held a press conference down in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I performed the Job I was sent there to do--mainly to gather information and to report back to New York on it. I stayed on the third floor hoping to get interviews with people who might have seen the assassination, and I was required by my office to report back immediately, which I did. I went across the street to the White Plaza Hotel, made a phone call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time would that have been? How soon after you arrived?
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Mr. PAPPAS. I would say 45 minutes, and that is only an approximation, because I have not thought about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have access to the phones in the police department for communication with New York?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; but not immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that come about?
Mr. PAPPAS. After midnight for me, sometime after midnight, well into the morning, when things had settled down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember--let me ask you this. You did have occasion to meet Jack Ruby while you were in Dallas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time before the press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I did not meet him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a reporter from one of the Washington newspapers by the name of O'Leary?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; not by name. Perhaps by sight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you this because in talking with O'Leary, O'Leary had the recollection that he met Ruby with you on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department sometime before the press conference, and he thought it was in the vicinity of the public elevators. Do you recall anything like that?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't recall that; no. If this incident happened, if O'Leary is right about the person that he was with, I don't remember it. Perhaps somebody. I don't even know who it was that I was with that night. There was a lot of confusion. If this person was Jack Ruby, he didn't do anything that would make that occurrence stick in my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I might be able to identify O'Leary, a little better for you, by indicating that he explained to us that on Sunday you and he had worked out a procedure whereby you figured out whether you could, by running, beat the elevator from the third floor down to the basement. As I recall his explanation, he said that you rode on the elevator and he ran down the stairs, and you two found that he could run down the stairs before the elevator could get down there. Do you remember that episode?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don't. I think O'Leary has me mistaken for someone else. I don't recall that at all.
This was Sunday, of course, the day of the killing of Oswald?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don't recall that incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Henry Wade came out of homicide office just before the conference was held in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. Friday night, you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how close you were to the homicide door, and what happened that you recall?
Mr. PAPPAS. As I recall it, I was at the head of the corridor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where is the head?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well---
Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the public elevators?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it is near the public elevators; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or were you closer to the homicide room?
Mr. PAPPAS. It is in an "L" form. As you come out of the elevators, you have to turn left to go down the corridor. Well, from the elbow, let's say, of the "L" to the homicide office, I couldn't Judge perhaps 30 or 40 feet, roughly. I don't know. But I was--if we are using that standard that I just described, I was approximately 30 feet from Mr. Wade, who was coming out of the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when Wade came out?
Mr. PAPPAS. I listened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened?
Mr. PAPPAS. Then everybody crowded around him and they said, "What do you have to say, Henry? What about this? What about that?" And he started to
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talk, and a lot of people protested, they said they could not hear him, the Nation was listening, they wanted to know who this fellow Oswald was. He finally agreed, I believe---he said, "Okay, let's all go downstairs."
I didn't know where downstairs was, but I said to myself if that is where they are all going, that is where I am going. And I asked someone beside me, and said, "Where are we going?" and he said, "They are going to hold a press conference downstairs." I said, "Great." And I followed Chief Curry and District Attorney Wade downstairs, where we all Jammed into the lineup room, I suppose.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself in the assembly room in relationship to Henry Wade?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were all in there first, before Wade came in. He stayed outside for awhile. I set my microphone up, or tried to get in position with the other microphones which were on the table. And we all expected Wade to come over there to deliver his statement, and also to answer questions. Actually, Wade placed himself in position to me, which was right next to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby while you were in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any conversation or any remarks that Jack Ruby made to Henry Wade while in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after--how long is it you estimate that the press conference lasted in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't think I could estimate that. I don't know. I really didn't pay any attention to the length of the press conference. I don't want to mislead you. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after the press conference ended?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, afterward is a long time. You mean immediately afterward?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately afterward.
Mr. PAPPAS. Let's see. Yes--I wanted to talk to Henry Wade, wanted to get a personal interview with him. And he did give us one or two statements, and then he wandered out, everybody else was wandering out. And I decided that I would try to get Henry Wade on the telephone directly to my office in New York. I went outside. I saw some other reporters--I didn't know who they were, but they knew the ropes, I suppose, of the police station, and they were using the phones out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where, specifically, was this?
Mr. PAPPAS. At the reception area, outside of the lineup room. There is a long reception desk, with other desks behind the long reception desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with what is called the records room of the police department?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I suppose was that the records room--I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am getting to. If you knew what the records room was, that would be my next question.
Mr. PAPPAS. Specifically I didn't know whether they called it the records room. It looked like a registration area to me. They did have a lot of desks, files, people doing clerical work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know which room is the jail office, don't you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the room that you are talking about now, was that the jail office?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; this was the area immediately outside of the lineup room. The jail office is a much smaller area, and it is enclosed. And this was a wider, broader room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephones were located in that particular room that you are talking about?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; they were on a counter-like affair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to go into the room to use the telephones, or could you stand in the hallway next to the counter?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, as I recall it, when you stepped out of the lineup room, you were in the other room. And the phones were right there on the counter.
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In other words, the thing that marked off the room, or the beginning of the room, apparently, was the counter. And on the counter were the telephones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what you did then, at that point. You picked up a telephone, or what happened?
Mr. PAPPAS. Henry Wade was on the phone to other radio stations, I imagine, or to other newsrooms, because he was being asked a question, and he was answering into a telephone. This is a technique that we use. I felt that it would be more expeditious for me to do it that way. And I picked up a phone, after Henry Wade had gotten toward the end of his interview--I picked up a phone and dialed New York, and I asked him, "Could you do this interview with me?" and he said. "Yes, but I have another phone call over there." And he pointed across the room. Somebody had said, "Come over here." I don't know whether he recognized him or what. But he left my telephone, and I don't know whether I hung up, or whether I had them wait in New York for me to get him back. But at any rate, this disturbed me, because it was long distance, and I had promised them this interview, and I wasn't coming through with it immediately, and this is always frustrating.
It was at this point that I ran into Ruby--the first time that I recall. He came up to me as I was waiting for Wade and he said, "Where are you from?" I said, "New York." He said, "Are you a reporter?" I said, "Yes." He said, "How long are you going to be in town?" And I said, "I win be here as long as It takes to do this story." And he reached into his pocket, and he pulled out a card. It said the Carousel Club on it. And I was amazed. I didn't know who he was or what he was. My immediate impression of him was that he was a detective. He was well dressed, nattily dressed, I imagine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his clothing?
Mr. PAPPAS. It was a dark suit. Whether it was gray or not, I don't know. But he had on a gray hat, fedora. And I looked at the card. I couldn't imagine what was happening.
It said, "Jack Ruby, your host," on it. I said, "Are you Jack Ruby?" He said, "Yes; come on over to the club if you get a chance you can have some drinks"--or something like that--"there are girls there." And then ,he disappeared. Naturally I had other things on my mind at the time. I must have put the card in my pocket. And-
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Can you describe his mood? Was it straightforward, was it somber, businesslike, was it exhilarated?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I would not call it exhilarated. I would say that he was in a very animated mood. He moved quickly, and he spoke quickly. Of course, I cannot tell you what his mood is, because I don't know the man. Maybe this is the way he is naturally. Maybe when he is in a mood he is somber. I don't know. But to me he appeared very worked up by the happenings, by the activity, by the people, by the reporters, by the cameras, by the flashguns, and everything else. He seemed, as I said before, very animated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have the card that he gave you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; I don't have it personally. I have it--someone has it. It is a magazine editor who is keeping it. He wanted to see it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after Jack left you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I still had to get Henry Wade. He was on the telephone, on this long interview. I was trying to get him over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you calling to Wade, or making any indication?
Mr. PAPPAS. He knew I wanted him on the phone.
Then it was awhile, and he had some other people to talk to. Then I think he had another phone call. Anyway, he was occupied, and Ruby came back. He darted past me again. I was still in this frustrated--this look on my face. He said, "What's the matter?" I said, "I am trying to get Henry Wade over to the telephone." He said, "Do you want me to get him?" I said, "Well, if you can, certainly, I can use any help I can get. I don't know the area." At least these are the thoughts going through my mind. I don't know whether said that to him or not. But I said, "Yes, I would like to have him over here." And he went around the desk, over to Henry Wade on the telephone. I don't know what they said to each other, but Ruby pointed over to me, and Henry looked up, and then Ruby came back and he just left. I don't know whether
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he said it will be okay, or what, but he just darted out again, out of the enclosure. And in a short while, Henry Wade finished up his telephone conversation and came over to my phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby didn't actually accompany Wade over, then?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don't think he waited.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it that you don't have any recollection of it, or do you feel certain--
Mr. FAPPAS. I am sure Henry Wade came over by himself, because Henry was on the phone for several minutes after Ruby spoke to him. I imagine he was wrapping up his conversation before coming over to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened when Wade came over?
Mr. PAPPAS. I did the interview with him to New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that interview?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't think so, because this was not done on my tape recorder, as I said. I think we have a copy of a portion of it, because when it did get up to New York--I don't know really whether it was used on the air or not. I imagine it was. And when we do use them, we edit them down. So I believe we have all of our tapes from last year. And if it was used, we have it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the telephone number that you called in New York?
Mr. PAPPAS. MO 1-3621.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a collect call?
Mr. PAPPAS. It was--I could not tell you, I am not sure. I think it had to be, because I could not call directly from the phone. I would say I assume it was collect. I cannot recall whether I called collect or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a credit card?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; we reverse the charges usually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished the interview with Wade?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, then he disappeared and I went out back into the lineup room where the Justice of the Peace Johnston, was holding an interview with other reporters, and he was reading the initial charge, I believe, against Oswald, to us. And I did an interview with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby there at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do after that?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, after that I went--I got through with Johnston, and then I went over to a radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. KLIF, yes. I forget what time this was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--how did you get into KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. I rang the bell downstairs, I believe, knocked on the door. Somebody came down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do when you got in there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I had to prepare a lot of material for the morning. I had a lot of tape to feed to New York. And I worked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see Jack Ruby while you were at KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember having anything to eat at KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get that from?
Mr. PAPPAS. From one of the diskjockeys there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you have?
Mr. PAPPAS. I had sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Corned beef sandwiches?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't know. I am not sure. I don't know what type they were. Might have been corned beef.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people we have talked to at KLIF recall that you were present when Ruby was there. Do you have any recollection of that?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; this is absolutely incorrect.
Now, the sandwiches were there when I arrived. I had not eaten. And I was very happy to have a sandwich. It was quite good, also. And I had a bottle of pop, and I said this is terrific, where did you get all this? And the person I spoke to said, "Oh, some guy brought them up." And I said, "Great."
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Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge at the time you were there, would you have been able to have seen Ruby in the place if he were there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I am sure if he was--if he was in the same area I was, certainly. I don't know whether he was or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would depend on how many rooms the radio station has. Were you in the newsroom?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't believe they have a newsroom as such. They have an area off of a control room which has some teletypes in it. I guess if that is their newsroom--yes; I was in the newsroom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in any of the broadcast studios? Were you in any of those?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; you see, the area that I was describing serves, from what I could tell, as a newsroom, as a broadcasting area, and as a control area, also, control room, because the person on the air was speaking into a microphone, broadcasting and doing his own control work while the teletypes were going I believe, right in the same room, with all of us. I was having a sandwich while he was broadcasting, and I was doing my own work, as I recall. Wait a minute now. No; there is another studio next to it--that is right. At any rate, there is a control area and a studio, and I think the one that I was in that Friday night served-as a broadcast studio, also. But there is another studio right next door to it, and you can see into it. There is a big glass panel there and everything else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any way of fixing the time that you were at KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; it was early in the morning. I am not quite sure when. Maybe 2:30. I don't know. It was well into the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as 3 o'clock in the morning?
Mr. PAPPA. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been any earlier than 2 o'clock in the morning?
Mr. PAPPAS. It is difficult for me to say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the people whom you met there?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don't recall the names offhand. I have a mental image of one person, but I cannot recall his name immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a fellow by the name of Russ Knight, called The Weird Beard?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he at the studio when you were there that night?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people at the studio?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; there was one other person. He is the person I have a mental picture of, but I cannot think of his name right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Glenn Duncan?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the man?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Saturday, what time did you arrive at the police department?
Mr. PAPPAS. I am afraid that Saturday--I went directly from the station to the police station. I didn't get any sleep at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. On, I remained there until Saturday night at approximately 8:45 or so, 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to fix at all where you would have been between 3, Saturday afternoon, and 6 o'clock Saturday evening--that is to say, can you tell us if you were up on the third floor during that period?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I was there most of the day. I am sure I had occasion to be there from, 3 to 6.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you station yourself permanently up on the third floor, or were you throughout the building the day that you were there, on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were throughout the building; yes. I was, I all over the building.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all at the police department on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed being taken when you were at the police department on Saturday, first of all with respect to the admission of newspaper people onto the third floor?
Mr. PAPPAS. They were following the same procedure, posting a man, two men, sometimes three men, at the elevator doors, and checking, I suppose the credentials of the people who came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your credentials checked on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. I wear my police badge in a situation like that, or the New York City press card, which is issued by the police department, so that it was visible all the time. They had checked it. So I suppose they didn't want to check it again, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lee Oswald moved at any time through the third floor hallway when you were there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of protection was provided for Oswald that you recall in moving him?
Mr. PAPPAS. He was given a police escort. Whenever they were going to move him, they would have all of the reporters clear away through the corridor. We were all Jammed in, and they cleared a path through the mass of bodies. And then Oswald would-be taken out by detectives and uniformed police.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close could you get to Oswald as he was being moved?
Mr. PAPPAS. Right next to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you leave the police department on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, roughly 9, 9:15 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left, had you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald the next day?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard?
Mr. PAPPAS. We had heard just before we were sent home, that he was--that he was not going to be moved that night. We heard that from Chief Curry. He said, and I remember his quote he said, "We plan to move this man not tonight."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about what time he would be moved the next day that you recall?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was sort of a question and answer thing. The questioning went like this. After he said-- we were all wondering whether we were going to have to spend the entire night at the station. And--you know, waiting for Oswald's departure. And we were quite relieved when Mr. Curry came out and he said that they did not plan to move him that night--at least I did--I wanted roger some sleep. I hadn't slept in a couple of days. And the reporters started to question him. And the questioning went like this:
"When will you move him?"
"Well, if you boys would be here by 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, that will be early enough."
And someone yelled, "Do you plan to move him at 10 o'clock?"
And the answer was something to this effect--"Well, if you boys get here by 10 o'clock"---or "It won't be any later than 10 o'clock."
And we all got the pretty good impression that is when they were going to move him.
He didn't come out and say, "We will move him tomorrow at 10 o'clock."
But we all got the distinct impression that is when it was going to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive back at the police department on Sunday morning?
Mr. PAPPAS. At 9:15, 9:20.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go a,t that point?
Mr. PAPPAS. Went to Chief Curry's office. Third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go inside the office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes--into the chief's complex of offices.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened when you got in there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, when I got there he was talking to some reporters, having another press conference, about Oswald's activities overnight, what he had for breakfast, and things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before Oswald was actually brought down in the basement, did you receive any indication, either by what you observed or by what someone told you, or by what you overheard, with respect to the manner in which he was going to be moved, or the route by which he was to be moved, or the time or circumstances under which he would be moved?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told that he was going to be moved in an car, or an armored truck. And someone at the window said, "There is an armored truck downstairs." And there was one. I just got a glimpse of it. I don't know whether he was trying to back into the garage at the time or not. I can't recall.
And we asked him why the armored truck. And he said, "Well, our police cars are not bullet proof."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Curry said that?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the armored truck arrived, did you have any that the armored truck might be on its way to the police station?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I didn't see the armored truck arrive. Somebody just said there is an armored truck.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean before you saw the armored truck the first you have any idea that the armored truck was going to be used at all before saw it down there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told by Curry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before you actually saw the truck?
Mr. PAPPAS. Almost immediately before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do then, when you saw the armored truck?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I went back to talking to Curry. He was waiting up there. People were asking him questions. He was passing the time of, and we were getting information.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later is it you estimate that Oswald was moved out of the homicide office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Let's see. Later than what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, than this particular episode you have just been talking with Curry, and having seen the armored car.
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, Curry left. A lot of other reporters left. It was 11 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am probably not making myself clear. How much elapsed between the time that you finished talking with Curry, after seen the armored car, and the time that Oswald was actually moved?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, I would say 20 minutes, 25 minutes. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Oswald was taken out of homicide office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when he was brought out of the office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I saw Captain Fritz coming out first, and Oswald behind him. I walked up to Fritz and I asked him a question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your tape recorder with you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any tapes of what took place up there in hallway at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they be available for us to listen to?
Mr. PAPPAS. You have them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have that particular tape?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is one of the tapes you had given to the FBI?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you right now then if you recall what--generally what were the contents of these various tapes which you gave the FBI?
Mr. PAPPAS. I gave them only one tape--the tape in the hallway, and the actual shooting of Oswald by Ruby. It was all on one reel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Oswald got past you up there on the third floor, what did you do?
Mr. PAPPAS. I went down to the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ran down the stairs?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long before Oswald emerged from the jail office was it that you arrived down there in the basement?
Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly a minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see happen as Oswald came out?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oswald came out. There were two detectives on either side of him. Captain Fritz was leading the way. There were other detectives behind him. Detectives behind, both walls from the exit to the jail, the basement walls. Oswald came right past me, and I did as many of us did throughout those 2 days, I shouted a question at him. And then I noticed a black blur, and I noticed a bang--I heard a bang, rather, I recall a flash, and then pandemonium.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack Ruby say anything as he moved toward Oswald?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think if he had said something, that you would have heard it?
Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on how loudly he said it. If he whispered it, certainly I could not hear it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if he had spoken in a normal voice?
Mr. PAPPAS. If he had spoken in a normal voice that would be difficult for me to tell. I could not say if he spoke in a normal voice. If he shouted something at I would say that I could have heard it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you able to hear Oswald's groan or response as he was hit?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the volume of that response compare to somebody speacking in a normal voice? Was it an extremely loud sold that he made, or don't you have any recollection?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, an extremely loud sound--it is hard for me to estimate what is loud and what is not. It is very vague.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, describe it in your own words.
Mr. PAPPAS. It was like an expulsion of air, a gasp. It was audible from where I was. I heard him. If I said it was loud, I don't know whether it would mean anything to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can make a statement like that and then maybe you can---
Mr. PAPPAS. It didn't throw my head back or anything like that. I have been blasted by loud sounds. But this was an audible sound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other people speaking and shouting at the time?
Mr. PAPPAS. At the time of what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this gasp came out?
Mr. PAPPAS. No. There were people--I imagine there was a slight din. But I noticed distinctly that the shot went off, and there was a cold moment of silence, and then the gasp. It was a very quick split-second thing. But there were these two moans that I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I have not listened to the tape yet, and that might answer many of the questions.
Mr. PAPPAS. I think that would help a lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order---of course, the tape is a result of a microphone, which may or may not pick up evening that the human ear picks up. Maybe we can work into this by my asking you, was this a directional mike or to what extent did the microphone itself that you were using limit the ability of the recording apparatus to pick up the kinds of sounds that the human ear would have heard?
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Mr. PAPPAS. It didn't limit it at all--from my knowledge of the instrument. It is nondirectional microphone. Its field travels in a slightly elliptical fashion. But it encompasses a greater area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here a number of pictures which I think you provided to the FBI.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do is to have you look at them. But I want to mark them first. And I would like to get some idea of what distances are really involved in these pictures. I am going to mark a single large photograph which shows a picture of Jack Ruby approaching Lee Oswald, and Oswald in this picture is not looking at Ruby--I am going to mark this Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. (The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to look at it with me. Now, you are in this photograph, and I take it you are the person who someone has circled in ink.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far are you actually standing from Jack Ruby as you recall in that picture?
Mr. PAPPAS. From Ruby, I don't know, because he was just a blur over to my left I was approximately 5 feet--5 or 6 feet from Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I am going to mark the next picture in the same manner--Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a series of six photographs on one photographic sheet. It is a sequence of shots showing Lee Oswald approaching, and in each of the first four pictures, starting at the top, you appear, and your head is circled. In the first picture in the middle row, you can see you holding out a microphone. Do you have any recollection, or are you able to give us any identification at that point where the microphone is being held out in this first picture in the second row how far that microphone really was from Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was at this point that I was asking my question, and it was--maybe 4 feet, or 5 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the next picture, and that is the second picture in the second row, shows a figure which is Jack Ruby approaching toward Oswald, and the microphone appears to be between Ruby and Oswald.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea in that picture how far the microphone would be from Jack Ruby's face?
Mr. PAPPAS. From Jack Ruby's face?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I do not. I did not see Jack Ruby at that point. I could not estimate it, because I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how far was the path that Jack Ruby traveled as he would have got directly in front of you--how far would he have been from you at that point? Do you have some recollection of his path?
Mr. PAPPAS. It was just a quick streak. I don't want to mislead you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to. I don't want to lead you into saying something which you cannot be accurate about.
Mr. PAPPAS. No. I was concentrating on Oswald. He was the person that we had to speak to. And--you notice I am watching Oswald throughout. Here is Ruby, apparently going right for him. And I suppose when he got up around forward of me, I saw this flash. And I really cannot judge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having to pull the microphone back as this flash went past you?
Mr. PAPPAS. No. I realized at a certain point that Oswald was not going to answer my question, and I still held it out. It was still out here. And--it was still projected forward at that point, still hoping that he might turn around and say something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again let me ask you--what is your best estimate of how far Oswald was from you, as you look at the second picture in the second row?
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Mr. PAPPAS. The best estimate is 6 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way that you can describe at a distance of, say, 4 to 8 feet, the pickup ability of your microphone?
Mr. PAPPAS. Do you mean if the subject is 4 feet from my microphone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. Then what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then in terms of the volume of the sound, what ability does your microphone have to pick up sound at that point?
Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on the volume of the sound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can it pick up conversation in a normal tone of voice at 4 feet?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about at 8 feet?
Mr. PAPPAS. At 8 feet it would. It would pick up normal conversation. Naturally the volume of it would be less, but it would be audible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way you can think of that we can describe the ability of this microphone at these two distances, 4 and 8 feet, to pick up sounds which are of less volume than a normal speaking voice?
Mr. PAPPAS. I am not sure whether I understand your question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, trying to find out--you said that it would not pick up a whisper at one point. Now, somewhere between a whisper and normal speaking voice there are other conversational tones or ranges of loudness that you might be able to describe in your own words and from your own experience, that this microphone might pick up at those distances.
Mr. PAPPAS. I have had no experience with any volume of voice between a whisper and a normal speaking voice. I could not tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark a document for the purpose of identification as Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this document consists of two pages, numbered consecutively at the bottom 475 and 476. And it is a copy of an interview report prepared by two special agents of the FBI, Lower and Hester, as a result of speaking with you in New York City on July 2, 1964. I would like to ask you to look at this interview report, read it over, and tell us if that accurately reports your conversation with them on that date as best you can recall.
Mr. PAPPAS. I think it does; yes, basically.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you, then, if you would sign the interview report on the first page and lnitial the second page.
Mr. PAPPAS. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it on the first page at a conspicuous spot at the top.
Mr. PAPPAS. This is an affidavit?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; this is just an interview report.
Mr. PAPPAS. Do I get a copy of this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can get a copy of the deposition that is being taken here. And we can then---
Mr. PAPPAS. Can I have this read?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to---
Mr. PAPPAS. No; it is all right.
All right. Where shall I sign it--right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top; yes, and just initial the next page.
Now, let me hand you also what I have marked as Icarus M. Pappas deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is another interview report prepared by two agents of the FBI, Eugene W. O'Neill, and James J. Rogers. It reports an interview that they had with you in New York City June 30, 1964, and it also consists of two pages. If you would read that, and also tell us if that accurately reflects what you told them at that time.
Mr. PAPPAS. This does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign that, then, on the first page, and initial the second? I might ask you one final question, which is a very general question.
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In your experience, reporting this event, the events of November 22, 23, and 24, do you feel that there were any--that any restrictions or precautions could have been taken, either to have provided more orderly distribution of information to the press, or to safeguard Lee Oswald, that in your estimation were not taken?
Mr. PAPPAS. I wonder if you could state that again?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me state it as two questions. From the standpoint of a newspaper reporter, do you feel that the local authorities in Dallas could have or should have instituted procedures which would have provided a more orderly flow of news to the press, or more restricted flow than was permitted?
Mr. PAPPAS. It is hard to say for me. I think that we got the news from the police department. That is what I am concerned with. And how I get it, whether it is orderly or not, is really none of my concern. I think if that is the way they do it, holding interviews in a hallway, that is the way I have to get it. I think that if they had set up an auditorium somewhere and came in with reports, this would be orderly. But how productive it would have been, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have---
Mr. PAPPAS. I think ideally, as a reporter, as a newsman, I think ideally if there is an incident, a crash, or a homicide, or something, it would make our job a lot easier if we could have all of the witnesses and all of the interviews that we have to get brought in and placed in front of us in a large auditorium. This would be nice and orderly for us. But, unfortunately, that is not the way our business works.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you think it would have been proper for the police to have refused access--refused you people access to the third floor?
Mr. PAPPAS. As far as a newsman is concerned; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you the second question, on the protection of Lee Oswald. Did you observe any inadequacies in the manner in which Oswald was protected that you would be able to bring to our attention?
Mr. PAPPAS. I am not a police officer. I don't know what is adequate and what is not. I could not tell you. I am not a law officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. I appreciate that. Do you have any other observations that you would want to make about your experiences in Dallas on those 3 days?
Mr. PAPPAS. Just that it was one of the saddest assignments that I have had to cover ever, and that it was professionally a challenge. That is all I could say generally about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven't any information that you think would be of significance for us?
Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no. I have just told the story so many times. I have just made every statement that I think could be made by me. That is what I know at this point. Unless you can think of something else specifically that you are puzzled about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven't anything in mind. I think we have covered it pretty well as far as we are concerned. One final question, then. You and I have not had any off-the-record conversations, or prior conversations before we began taking your deposition, have we?
Mr. PAPPAS. Only when you wanted to finish your coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When I saw you out in the hallway and asked you to wait a few minutes?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But we did not discuss anything pertaining to your testimony at that point?
Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven't any further questions. I want to thank you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us. The tape recording and the photographs which you have provided in the past have been of considerable use to us.
Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you for having me here, and I hope I have been of some help in getting to the bottom of all of this.