TESTIMONY OF ELNORA PITTS
The testimony of Elnora Pitts was taken at 2:40 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex, by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Elnora Pitts. Mrs. Pitts, my name is Leon Hubert.
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, issued by President Johnson.
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And by a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you today.
I say to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in particular, as to you, Mrs. Pitts, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly those facts concerning Jack Ruby.
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
228
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you are appearing here as a result of a letter sent to you by J. Lee Rankin?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. General Counsel of the Commission. You have received that letter, haven't you?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received more than 3 days from today?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; it was--it must have been longer than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?
Mrs. PITTS. But, the man there, Mr. Sorrels----
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels?
Mrs. PITTS. They called me and talked with me and called me again and told me to come today.
Mr. HUBERT. But, the letter was received more than 3 days ago?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Because 3 days ago would be last Saturday, and it was received before that, wasn't it?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind rising and taking the oath? Raise you right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. For the record, will you state your name.
Mrs. PITTS. My name is Elnora Pitts.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are a widow?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And your husband's name was what?
Mrs. PITTS. McKinley.
Mr. HUBERT. And he has been dead how long?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, it has been a long time. Just exactly the date, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You have not remarried?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your maiden name, before you married?
Mrs. PITTS. Elnora Magee.
Mr. HUBERT. Magee. How old are you, Mrs. Pitts?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I was born 1903. That makes me about 60, don't it?
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mrs. PITTS. I live at 1316 East Jefferson.
Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff.
Mr. HUBERT. Oak Cliff?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you do for a living, Mrs. Pitts?
Mrs. PITTS. I work in apartment houses.
Mr. HUBERT. In apartment houses?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work do you do?
Mrs. PITTS. That is cleaning. Cleaning, you see, from one apartment to another but I don't----
Mr. HUBERT. You work in several apartment houses?
Mrs. PITTS. I go---I don't work everyday. When they call me I go; yes; and then I have some regulars.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, some apartments that you clean everyday, or every week, or certain times?
Mrs. PITTS. Certain time every week.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you. know Mr. Jack Ruby?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. I know him, but
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, now, that, I would have to get the real information on Mr. David, Glen David, that was the manager of the apartments there. He was with me down here on Ewing, Mr. David was, and then they transferred me
229
on over to another apartment on Ewing where this Jack Ruby lived, so, just to tell the truth how long that I worked for Mr. Ruby somewhere. so--along 8 or 9 or maybe 10 months.
Mr. HUBERT. How often did you go to his apartment?
Mrs. PITTS. I went one part of a day. On--I first started going to him on Tuesday, and then he said that was because he hadn't cleaned it in a long time, and it was in a bad shape, so he paid me 7 1/2 to clean it the first time, and so, next time he paid me $4 and give me busfare and then he said to me, said, "Well, it is getting pretty dirty," said, "I'm going to give you a little raise now today," and I said, "All right." So, the next time he give me 5 1/2. From then on he pay me 5 1/2.
Mr. HUBERT. That is for how much time?
Mrs. PITTS. Until then I was going on Tuesday. Then he changed it then until Saturday and from Saturday to Sunday. He says he had company and wanted it fresh and clean on Sunday, and asked me if I would come on Sunday morning and I told him, "Yes," so that is why I called him that Sunday morning, because that was my time to go, because I had something to do at home before I went, so then I didn't go.
Mr. HUBERT. So, as of November 24, 1963, it was your custom to go there on a Sunday morning?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I guess that was the time when he done his killing, was it?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, November 24 is the day that Oswald was shot.
Mrs. PITTS. Uh-huh. Well, then I called him on the next Sunday----
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this----
Mrs. PITTS. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been going to him regularly on Sundays before?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You always called?
Mrs. PITTS. I called--called him, and always called the manager because I went once and I didn't call so they had to do something in there, and he had a dog, and I was scared of this dog, so, the manager, she was there, and she said, "Well, I will lock the dog in the bathroom," and I said, "No; I don't work that way. I will just go back home."
So, the next time I didn't call and she was gone and he was gone, too, and I---from then on I always called.
Mr. HUBERT. And you called about what time in the morning?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, just different times, but that morning I don't know what time it was that I called. I know that it was 8:30, or might have been later than that. I really don't know for--I didn't look at the clock.
Mr. HUBERT. That morning--what morning do you mean?
Mrs. PITTS. I think it was Sunday morning, you know, when you was saying about----
Mr. HUBERT. When Oswald was shot?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you do remember that Oswald was shot----
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It was on Sunday?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you do know that Mr. Ruby was accused of shooting Mr. Oswald and was tried, as a matter of fact?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is the man we are talking about, is that right?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is the Sunday we are talking about?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You called in there, as was your custom----
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. To do the regular weekly----
Mrs. PITTS. Cleaning.
Mr. HUBERT. Work, and you say you don't know what time it was?
230
Mrs. PITTS. No, I don't, but it was--it was after 8. I know way after 8, and when I called him he said to me, "What do you want?" And I said----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize his voice?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I'll tell you how he talked to me, ,then I said, "What do I want?" I says, "This is Elnora." He says, "Yes, well, what--you need some money?" And I says, "No; I was coming to clean today." "Coming to clean?" Like you know, like he just- ---
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you told him that you were coming to clean he seemed to express some surprise, is that it?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; like he didn't know that I was going to come and clean.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize you?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't know if he did or not. And I says to him again, I says, "This is Elnora." And he says, "Well, what do you want?" And I said, "Well, I was coming to clean today."
"You coming now?" And I says, "No."
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you then, "Are you coming now?"
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; and then I says, "No." And he says, "Well, what you got to do?" And I says, "I have got to go to the store for the children." I always goes to the store for the children before I come to work whenever I come. He says, "Well,"--I says, "You seem so funny to me." And I says, "Do you want me to come today?" And he says, "Well, yes; you can come, but you call me." And I says, "That's what I'm doing now, calling you so I won't have to call you again." And he says, "And you coming to clean today?" And I said, "Yes." Well, he sounded so strange to me but I still wouldn't say nothing to him. I just stopped another few minutes, and I said, "Who am I talking to? Is this Mr. Jack Ruby? And he said, "Yes. Why?" And I said, "Oh, nothing." But he just sounded terrible strange to me, so, I said, "Well, I'll call you." And he says, "But, I don't see why I called you." And he said, "Yes, so I can tell you where the key will be and the money." And I said, "Okay." So, I hung up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arrange a time to go then?
Mrs. PITTS. He told me to call him before I come.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time?
Mrs. PITTS. I told him that I would be there before 2 and he says for me to call him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he suggest 2 o'clock?
Mrs. PITTS. No; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say when you suggested 2?
Mrs. PITTS. He said, "Why so late?"
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you say?
Mrs. PITTS. I told him, said, "Well, I have got to go to the store, and I have got some things to do."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you had some cleaning to do?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I had some cleaning to do, straightening up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he agree that 2 o'clock would be all right?
Mrs. PITTS. No; he didn't seem to think that 2 o'clock was all right.
Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to call him?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; he asked me to call him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you to call him at 2 or what?
Mrs. PITTS. No; he says, "You call me before 2," that is what he says. He says, "Be sure you call me." To call before 2, "Before you come." He says, "You call me before 2, before you start," and I says, "Well, what I have to call you again for?" And he says, "Well, so I can tell you where the key is and the money." And I said, "Uh-huh."
So, before I could, you know, hang up, he says, "Be sure and call me." "Did you say you was coming in today?" And I said, "Yes." And when he said that, that's when it kind of seared me, so, I just hung--I say, "okay," and I hung up.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you scared about?
Mrs. PITTS. The way he talked. He didn't talk like he never did sound like hisself to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure you were talking to him?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I guess so.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever talked to him before on the telephone?
231
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, it sounded like him in one way, and when he went to talking, you know, just saying the same thing two or three times, that is what--that is when I asked him, you know, if I was talking to Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. So, there was some doubt in your mind as to whether it was Jack Ruby?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. It was a doubt in something wrong with him the way he was talking to me. Other things--- times I would have, you know, just laid my work down and went ahead on.
I called my daughter and told her, and she said, "Well, are you going over there now?" And, "No; he don't sound right to me over the phone. I am going to wait."
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at is this, whether or not you can say it was Jack Ruby that you were talking to but that he seemed different?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; that was him.
Mr. HUBERT. Or whether or not he seemed so different that you were not sure that it was Jack Ruby?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. It was him. I'm sure of that, but then he just was indifferent He sure did talk indifferent; yes, sir. He sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he tell you that he was going out, or that he would be back around 2?
Mrs. PITTS. Said he was going out, he would try to be back by 2. That is what he told me. He says, "You call me before." That is what he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when he was going out, Mrs. Pitts?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; didn't tell me, says, "I am going out." That is what he says, and I says to him, I says, "If you are going to have company or something"--I says, "I can wait and come tomorrow." He said, "Oh, no; you come on."
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix a little better for us the time that this conversation took place?
Mrs. PITTS. It was after 8 o'clock, was way after 8, but just to tell the truth----
Mr. HUBERT. You say "Way after 8," you mean way after 8 on the way to 9?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I imagine somewhere around 8:30, then, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't after 9?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; it wasn't after 9.
Mr. HUBERT. How can you be sure about that? Is there anything that you remember that makes you say it was not before 8 but afterward, and not before 9?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, the children had the programs on Sundays, and I know then that they was a, you know, singing, and that is why I know it was between 8--8:30 and 9.
Mr. HUBERT. That was what I was trying to get at, get something that you could identify so that you could fix the time that way.
Mrs. PITTS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to church, perhaps, that day?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Children go to church?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; they--they was intending to go to church. One you see, one, I think, did go to Sunday school, but church.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he go?
Mrs. PITTS. That one going to Sunday school was ready and gone before then.
Mr. HUBERT. What time does Sunday school begin?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, Sunday school begins around, I think, 9 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he had already gone?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you say----
Mrs. PITTS. Have to walk a little piece.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, does that help you to fix the time of the conversation with Mr. Ruby?
232
Mrs. PITTS. Well, that program there, that is what I----
Mr. HUBERT. What program was it?
Mrs. PITTS. Something on that KBOX program where those preaching, you know, and having church there, and that is the reason I said it is between 8:30 and 9.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first spoke to Mr. Ruby, did he seem to have just awakened, or what?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I don't know know if he----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he had just awakened?
Mrs. PITTS. No; I didn't ask him that.
Mr. HUBERT. DO you know Mr. George Senator?
Mrs. PITTS. I know of him. I cleaned for him twice.
Mr. HUBERT. He lived in the same apartment, or a different one?
Mrs. PITTS. He was living next door to him when I cleaned for him. He was 206, and Mr. Ruby was 205.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. This apartment that you were going to clean on November 24, what was the number of it?
Mrs. PITTS. That was Mr. Ruby. In 205.
Mr. HUBERT. Sure it was not 207?
Mrs. PITTS. That is it. He 206. Senator was right next door.
Mr. HUBERT. Next door, or across?
Mrs. PITTS. No; right against Mr. Ruby's, and, Senator--and Mr. George Senator was right at--you're right, 207. I keep saying 205, but it was 207.
Mr. HUBERT. 207?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether or not Mr. Senator and Mr. Ruby were sharing apartment 207 on November 24, or sometime before that?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I hadn't been there in--and seen him. I hadn't, but when I had went there and cleaned--started to clean his apartment where Mr. George used to live, and he had moved out, but when--where did he move then, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. So, any Sunday you ever went to Mr. Ruby's apartment, you don't know whether Mr. Senator was sharing that apartment or not?
Mrs. PITTS. No; he would come over there when he lived right there next to him, but, see, when he moved, well, then, I hadn't been there in a long time, so, then, I had seven vacant apartments to do just before this all happened, so, then I----
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby have a two-bedroom apartment?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you noticed before that both bedrooms had been occupied by people, that is to say, by cleaning up, by seeing that the beds had been slept in and so forth, you can tell when the rooms----
Mrs. PITTS. No; the bed was made. Now, the manager told me, but I didn't see him there. Now, the manager told me that they must--this man Senator had moved over there, but then I didn't see him there.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't pay you?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Mr. Senator over the phone?
Mrs. PITTS. No, no. I--he called me from his apartment once and talked to me about coming to clean for him, but he didn't talk to me, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it possible that the man you spoke to on November 24, was not Mr. Ruby, but Mr. Senator?
Mrs. PITTS. It sounded like Mr. Ruby, but he just--he started talking off all right and then he would go, you know, to talking funny to me, and don't didn't ever do.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean kind of mad at you?
Mrs. PITTS. No; it wasn't mad, but just talking strange, you know how a person talks strange, kind of. Don't really understand what they are really saying, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. You testified, didn't you, in Mr. Ruby's trial?
233
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been interviewed prior to that by his attorney?
Mrs. PITTS. Say had I been what?
Mr. HUBERT. Interviewed prior to your testimony in the trial by his attorney?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; by his--Mr. Belli.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Belli? He talked to you?
Mrs. PITTS. He talked to me. He come out there and got me when I was sitting out there waiting. They had--Mr. Burleson was the one that talks to me over the phone and told me that I had to come down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you whether or not his voice was strange?
Mrs. PITTS. They just told me to tell how he talked to me, so, that is what I did. That is what he said that they wanted to know. So, that is what I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you were interviewed by Mr. Jack French, special agent of the FBI, around 2 or 3 days after this shooting occurred?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you told Mr. French at that time that you thought that Mr. Ruby's voice sounded odd the way you testified today?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him that, but he told me what he was wanting to know if I had seen any books or letters or papers around there, and that I didn't ever look, and----
Mr. HUBERT. But you say you told Mr. French that you thought that Mr. Ruby's voice was odd like you testified to today?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that, or was the first time that you testified like that at the time of the Ruby trial?
Mrs. PITTS. Did I do what now?
Mr. HUBERT. I say, are you sure that you told Mr. French about Mr. Ruby's strange sounding voice or what----
Mrs. PITTS. I told----
Mr. HUBERT. Or was the first time you testified about that voice at the time of the trial?
Mrs. PITTS. I told him some of it. He told me he wasn't interested in that. He said what he wanted to know if I'd seen a lot of people around there. didn't see, because I wasn't there every day.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it suggested to you by anyone that you should say that his voice was strange there?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him that.
Mr. HUBERT. No; did anybody suggest to you, at anytime that you should testify that Mr. Ruby's voice seemed odd that day?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; nobody didn't tell me that, just told me to tell how he talks to me, so, that is what I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had also told that to Mr. French?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes; I told him he sounded funny to me and strange, and scare me, and there is another reason I didn't just drop my work at home and go ahead home, because I could have went on to the store right there close and--but I wouldn't do it, because he talked so funny to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you decided at that time that you weren't going over there that day?
Mrs. PITTS. I guess when I talked to him--after I hung up I called my daughter and told her about it, said, "He sure sounded funny to me." And, so, she said, "Are you going, mama?" And I said, "No." And, directly my little bitty granddaughter, the oldest granddaughter there, and they says, "Is this name Jack Ruby, Rubinstein, or something?" And I said, "No; Jack Ruby." Says, "Well, that news is where there he done killed a man." But I said, "Killed who?" So, she said--"Oswald." Well, it didn't--this Oswald, I don't know nothing about him, so, I said, "That isn't him, because this is Rubinstein. It's Ruby is what he told me." All I ever did know was Jack Ruby, so, I called my daughter again, and I says to her, I says, "They'll show that on TV, and they call the dog Sheba"--there, that's him, and I said, "You stay there and look and call me back."
I still kept working, because I didn't think it was him, so, she--directly
234
she called me and says, "Yes." It is on TV and is a little, short, heavy man kind of bald-headed, I say, "Yes." And called me back and said where he lived, and sure enough, and I said, I knowed there was something wrong with that man. I didn't go on over there---and was glad that I didn't go. No doubt when--went over there when he was talking the way he was talking he would turned around there and shot me.
Mr. HUBERT. Explain that a little bit. I don't think you have told us much about what he told you. As I understand your testimony he seemed a little vague, but, he told you to come on and clean but call before?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, he told you that he thought he would be back by 2 o'clock?
Mrs. PITTS. He told me be sure and call.
Mr. HUBERT. What was strange about that?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, see, he asked me that two or three times, now, was I coming over, and what was I coming over there for, and I had to tell him, and told him that I was coming to work.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was several times, Mrs. Pitts?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That you had to identify yourself, as it were?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him who I was and told him, says, "I'm coming to clean." See, I had borrowed $25 from him a while back and paid him the money back, and I thought when he asked me did I want some money I--and says, "Oh, no; I don't want to borrow no money today. I am coming to clean." Told him coming to clean today. Is so--it's Sunday, you've always told me to wait until Tuesday and then Saturday, and back to Sunday, and I says, "And today is Sunday." And he says, "Oh." And I said----
Mr. HUBERT. He says, What?
Mrs. PITTS. He says, "Oh,"--and I says to him, I says, "If you don't want me to come on, if you have got somebody--- company or something, I can wait and come tomorrow. I'll wait and come tomorrow if you say so."
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mrs. PITTS. "No, you come now, but you call me."
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, was there anything else peculiar about the conversation?
Mrs. PITTS. Then, he didn't seem to know who I were at first. Turned and says to me, says, "Are you coming over here? What you coming over here for?" And I says, coming over to clean. I says, "Today is Sunday." He says, "well--I didn't seem to think that I would have to tell him that.
"Come over to clean I will leave the keys for you and come and start, and you can come on and clean," and I said, "Yes, sir." Well, then, I was getting arrangements made to start and he turned to me again and say, "What you coming for?" And I said, "Well, I'm coming to clean and dust."
Mr. HUBERT. He said that several times?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Also, some little sound in his voice you think?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say something about his being kind of rude, now, or rough?
Mrs. PITTS. No; he hollered and something----
Mr. HUBERT. Hollered?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Hollered? What do you mean?
Mrs. PITTS. And in talking about these things, yes, sir, he says, "What you--what are you--what do you want?"
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you-say a loud voice like you just raised your voice right now.
Mrs. PITTS. "What do you want?" and I says, "What you want?" And he said, "Yes,"--said, "This is Elnora. I was coming to clean." He says, "Elnora? Who is Elnora?" Elnora Pitts. He mostly called me Eleanor.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse you or anything like that?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; he didn't cuss.
235
Mr. HUBERT. He just raised his voice and did not understand, you would have to repeat things several times?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that bothered you so that you made up your mind you weren't going that day?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes; scared me.
Mr. HUBERT. You were fearful that he might hurt----
Mrs. PITTS. I didn't think he might hear--that is, he might hurt me, but I was scared something was wrong with him by him asking me that two or three times and he never did ask me that. And I always would call him.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mrs. PITTS. I would always call him and say I would be there. There was going to be nobody there. At times he would be leaving and take the dog along because I don't work where there's dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. What dog?
Mrs. PITTS. Sheba. I've been dog-bit twice so, I am just scared of dogs, and I don't go where dogs is in the place, and that is the reason I refused to go when the manager opened the door for me and told me she would put him in the bathroom, and I told her I would go on home and come back again.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a gun in that apartment?
Mrs. PITTS. I never did see it. I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry a lot of money?
Mrs. PITTS. He did.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, there would be on the coffee table top, dining room table, on his dresser, be behind the dresser, on the floor. I would pick it up and put in those things, brown envelope sacks and sack it up, and put it on the dresser.
Mr. HUBERT. Lots of money?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, I guess it was right smart, but it wasn't no--way up in the hundreds or----
Mr. HUBERT. Rolls of money?
Mrs. PITTS. No: just loose money.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on several times that you noticed that?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; lots of times, because I refused to clean his dresser off, and his coffee table, and the manager told me, said, "Jack Ruby said I had left the coffee table and dresser, and I said," "Do you know why?" And say, "No." "Because he had money laying nil over both the table and on his dresser, and on the table." And I says--"and I don't dust them, because I don't--by him being a Jewish man, I don't want him to say I taken the money, you know. I don't steal, you know that."
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. PITTS. He says, "No."
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. PITTS. Now, he had a man staying there with him once.
Mr. HUBERT. Colored man, I am talking about?
Mrs. PITTS. And--oh, Andrew? Well, I seen this Andrews down in the courthouse. He had called out there several times when I was there, and----
Mr. HUBERT. While you were working?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; this Andrews did, and he would ask for Ruby, and I would tell him, you know, and whenever Ruby come in you tell him that I am ready to go and he would just say, "Ain't there some money laying around?" And I said, "No, he can pay me himself. No, I'd rather for him to put it out for me himself."
Mr. HUBERT. You never met Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. PITTS. I seen him down at the----
Mr. HUBERT. Court?
Mrs. PITTS. Courthouse, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet him then?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before then?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.
236
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Andrew Armstrong you were talking to on these previous occasions when you spoke to him on the telephone?
Mrs. PITTS. He told me who he was, Andrews.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize his voice?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. I recognized his voice when I seen him up there and somebody called him Andrews, and then----
Mr. HUBERT. So the conversation you had prior to the time Mr. Ruby was arrested, those conversations with Andrew were all over the phone and you had never met him before?
Mrs. PITTS. See, I don't have I don't have any conversations with Andrews since Mr. Ruby been in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that the conversations you had prior to the time Mr. Ruby went to jail, with Andrew, were all over the phone and it was at a time you had never met him before, is that right?
Mrs. PITTS. You mean when I was there working there?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. PITTS. And he would call and something would be wrong at the club, and he'd call and say he needed Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. There?
Mrs. PITTS. That's right, and I'd say, well, he's not here.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never met Andrew at that time?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you recognized his voice and subsequently when you met him you recognized his voice, too?
Mrs. PITTS. As I----I asked him, I says--somebody called him, and Andrew--and I said, "Oh,"--I said, "You are the Andrew who used to call out at the house." And he says, "Yes." Thought I was, at first, Alice, somebody by the name of Alice, and I said, "Elnora." Oh, yes, I see.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a girl by the name of Alice?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I didn't know her.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she live in the apartment?
Mrs. PITTS. That, I don't know if she I guess she must have worked at the club. I think she worked down at the club. I never did see her.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a lady by the name of Alice Nichols?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I don't know none of them people that worked down to his place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right. Is there anything else that you know about?
Mrs. PITTS. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you know about that you haven't stated to me?
Mrs. PITTS. No, I never did go to his club. I have never met none of thosepeople there, and----
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you testified to in court that you haven't said here?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; nothing. I told you the truth. Just testified the truth on how he talked to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony today is about the same as it was in court, is that right?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else concerning Mr. Ruby that would throw any light upon why he shot Oswald, if he did, or what his connection was with Oswald or with anybody else in any manner?
Mrs. PITTS. That is something I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not know?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir. I don't even know this Oswald. I don't know a thing in the world. about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a boy by the name of Larry Crafard?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I will show you some pictures of a man here taken in different poses. Have you ever seen that man?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't think I have, no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was shown several--five
237
pictures of Larry Crafard, also known as Curtis LaVern Crafard, and after examining them, she stated that she did not know this man.
Mrs. PITTS. Uh-huh.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that you say you have never seen him at all?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't think I have. I don't remember him. He had one young man that stayed there, kind of tall boy. I don't know his name, but I ain't seen him since Mr. Ruby been in jail down here, and he had moved over here on--I believe he was---said it was Freeman's Apartment House, I believe that is where he lived.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't know his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he live there?
Mrs. PITTS. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Did he live at the apartment?
Mrs. PITTS. The apartment--lived there with Ruby for one while.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, that was back in December. He was a tall, young looking boy.
Mr. HUBERT. That is not the man I just showed you the picture of?
Mrs. PITTS. He don't look like him; no. I don't know his name. I seen him there. I seen him one Sunday night. I seen him there and seen him there once before then, but he didn't say too much when he come in that Sunday night. I was getting ready to leave.
Mr. HUBERT. You only saw him twice?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He was thin, and tall, you say?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, he wasn't a real thin boy, but he was tall.
Mr. HUBERT. He was tall? How old was he?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't know just how old he was.
Mr. HUBERT. What made you think he was living there?
Mrs. PITTS. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. What made you think he was living there?
Mrs. PITTS. This boy said he was. He was working down there at the club. He told me he was working down there for his room out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this a Jewish boy?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't know. He come from somewhere here and he----
Mr. HUBERT. The Dallas area?
Mrs. PITTS. I guess and he didn't have no job. He would work there to pay for his room, is what the boy told me, but I didn't pay too much attention to him, because I was getting ready to go.
Mr. HUBERT. You only saw him on two occasions?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Ruby there when you saw him?
Mrs. PITTS. Mr. Ruby, come in when I was getting ready to leave, and this boy had some. and I think then he was telling the boy to get ready to go down to the club and I was getting ready to go out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. You fixed that as being in the summertime?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the boy left?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know. I guess it was summertime. I don't even know, but it was kind of hot weather. Might have been fall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he living there at the time Mr. Ruby got in the trouble?
Mrs. PITTS. Oh, goodness no.
Mr. HUBERT. He had left?
Mrs. PITTS. He had been gone a long time. That was in the wintertime. I don't even know to tell you how much attention I paid to this boy. I didn't even know him when I come out of the drug store and I said something to one of my middle granddaughters--got a paper and something, and boy turned around and said, "Hello there." And I-looked at him, and then he "Don't you remember me?" And I said, "Oh, yes, I believe I do now." I says, "You was living with Ruby?" And he says, "Yes, I thought sure you'd remember me." And I said, "Yes."
238
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mrs. PITTS. That was when Ruby had been in the trouble, and he was in the street, and I come in the drug store, and he was stopping out there fixing to get into his car.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mrs. PITTS. Where was that?
Mr. HUBERT. The drug store.
Mrs. PITTS. Corner of Cornell and Ewing, there. The drug store where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where that man works?
Mrs. PITTS. Work? No, no. I don't know that. Mr. George Senator, now, would know him, and could tell you where he is. I don't even remember the boy's name, but I know--and into my work, and get through, and so, I never seen but twice.
Mr. HUBERT. The time you saw him at the drug store, though, he was getting into his automobile, was that after Mr. Ruby got into trouble?
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, Sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after, about?
Mrs. PITTS. I don't know just how long.
Mr. HUBERT. Around Christmastime or before the trial?
Mrs. PITTS. Well, yes; it was before the trial, as I had never been down here. At least I hadn't been down here, and I don't know if he had been or not, but he did tell me the FBI men had been out talking to him?
Mr. HUBERT. After New Year's that you saw him?
Mrs. PITTS. I just don't know how--when it was. Might have been after New Year's, but I know it hadn't been down here, you know, at the trial. And he said they had been out to talk to him and found him and talked with him, so, I guess he told them, you know, where he was. Told me he was living over at the Freeman's Apartments, and I don't know if he is still over there or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Once again, he doesn't look like the man whose pictures I showed you?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff before? I am a member of the Commission's staff, and have you been interviewed by me before this?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have never seen me before today, isn't that right?
Mrs. PITTS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there was no interview between you and me before we began this deposition?
Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Elnora, thank you very much.
Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.