TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANK H. RAY (VALENTINA)

The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER - Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please -
Mrs. RAY - Surely. (Complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. RAY - I do.
Mr. LIEBELER - Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No.3. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter last week?
Mrs. RAY - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - With which he included copies of the Executive order -
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony.
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You received the letter and copies of the documents?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.
Mrs. RAY - Mrs. Frank H. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where do you live?
Mrs. RAY - I live 4524 Alta Vista, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where were you born, Mrs. Ray?
Mrs. RAY - In Stalino, Ukraine.
Mr. LIEBELER - That is in the Ukraine; it is the Soviet Union?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - When were you born?
Mrs. RAY - June 9, 1927.
Mr. LIEBELER - How did it come about that you came to the United States?
Mrs. RAY - When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942 until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live.
Mr. LIEBELER - What part of Germany?
Mrs. RAY - Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that part of Germany and I went to work for American, and then I married an American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was his name?
Mrs. RAY - Henry W. Bahlkow.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was a member of the U.S. Army?
Mrs. RAY - Yes, 36th Division and he was - I don't know what outfit at the

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time but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present address if that help.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is he living in St. Louis?
Mrs. RAY - No, Hicksvile, Long Island?
Mr. LIEBELER - What is his address?
Mrs. RAY - I forget number - Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street - It would be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an electrical engineer over there.
Mr. LIEBELER - You were taken from Russia at the age of 14?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you work for the Germans after that time?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - I imagine that kind of interfered with your formal education?
Mrs. RAY - Let's say it stopped it completely.
Mr. LIEBELER - What formal educational background do you have?
Mrs. RAY - I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think - I don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare schools here to school over there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any formal education other than that?
Mrs. RAY - When I came over here I went to International Institute in St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen papers and I became citizen 1949.
Mr. LIEBELER - When did you move to Dallas?
Mrs. RAY - I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of 1954; I remarried.
Mr. LIEBELER - What does your present husband do?
Mrs. RAY - He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name of Pollock and Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER - That is located in Dallas?
Mrs. RAY - 3508 Dlckason.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did there come a time you met Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been staying at Mrs. Ford's house.
Mr. LIEBELER - Marina had?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly be can come out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest. He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was Lee there then?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't seem to be ungrateful but looked like

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"We don't need it." He didn't say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Lee did not thank you for the clothes?
Mrs. RAY - Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all It was.
Mr. LIEBELER - Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house and talked with his wife -
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said Lee had told Marina he rented an apartment?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment prior to that time?
Mrs. RAY - I got impression that they did not.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you remember how you got that impression?
Mrs. RAY - Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?" She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when I talked to her on everything she described apartment - "I have living room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom" - so I am almost certain that is the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea where she has been.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the Oswalds marital difficulties?
Mrs. RAY - I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that he struck her or beat her up.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what reason for beating her up?
Mrs. RAY - No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you leave - I am not that nosey.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was the first time you met Marina when you went to Mrs. Ford's to pick her up?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Had you heard about her prior to that time?
Mrs. RAY - Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why Marina came to stay with her or whet the circumstances were?
Mrs. RAY - None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's place on Elsbeth.
Mr. LIEBELER - At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the day that he came out to your house to talk to Marina-
Mrs. RAY - Yes; at my house.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you recall and tell us to the best of your recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation was?
Mrs. RAY - My talk with him mostly just on - what did I talk to him about?

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I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian or in English?
Mrs. RAY - In Russian at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know whether Marina could understand English?
Mrs. RAY - At the time she could not understand but maybe few word. like simple words like If I say bread or - I would say she did not understand maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use every day In the kitchen; not any English at all.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did not try to teach Marina English? -
Mrs. RAY - No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you say in response to that?
Mrs. RAY - I said after she learns English they could speak Russian all time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald make any response to that?
Mrs. RAY - None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was absolutely - you could ask him question, If you lucky, you might get answer. He did not say one word.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether Oswald drank at all?
Mrs. RAY - When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink. I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I don't drink." so I don't know whether it was just that day or period but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink because he would have said I don't care for any today or something.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you remember anything more about the conversation that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over?
Mrs. RAY - No; I don't think so; all was smalltalk. We talked about my cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough to discuss anything else
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you anything about her background in Russia, where she was born, where she was raised?
Mrs. RAY - Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or aunt, I am not sure, I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and the first time - like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to so and so and by that time, it got to me - first I heard about was she was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER - She told you that?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; she did; she has sister in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER - When did Marina tell you that?
Mrs. RAY - This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived with

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her aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you say you are a friend of Mrs. Ford's?
Mrs. RAY - I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She is the first Russian I met here in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New Year's, 1962?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember seeing Oswald there?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some hord'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said "Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so, it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and I think that is first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; somebody was taking care.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know how Oswald came to the party?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; later on "Katya"
Mr. LIEBELER - That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]?
Mrs. RAY - Katya told me - that is Mrs. Ford - George DeMohren - it's something; I don't know him very well at all.
Mr. LIEBELER - De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; they brought them to the party.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the Oswalds left the party?
Mrs. RAY - None.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or during the period following the Ford party in which the question of whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed?
Mrs. RAY - No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party for - normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work and she did, not say. I really have no information after that party. I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me and I have never discussed it with anyone.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back to Russia?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to Russia?
Mrs. RAY - Not until after this all came out In the papers after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have any political discussions with Oswald?
Mrs. RAY - Not - I do not know enough because - I do not know anything about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently, therefore, I usually stay away from that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the asassination based on your exposure to her?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably would never make her any kind of a living the way he was,. just made so little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her because I felt she would be a very

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lonely girl living in this country and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I was -
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent person?
Mrs. RAY - At first I did not because I knew her so short - I mean it was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think she was immature?
Mrs. RAY - Well, immature - I did at first, I thought she was little immature.
Mr. LIEBELER - A little immature?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to another country. In your own country might not be considered immature but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things, people might consider you immature where you really not.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many times have you seen Marina since the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house when she had to go down for questioning.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember when this was?
Mrs. RAY - In February, I am not sure about dates.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was that before she went to Washington?
Mrs. RAY - No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs. RAY - No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more time and that was last time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those questions.
Mr. LIEBELER - You did speak to her about it?
Mrs. RAY - I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?" And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss him?" She said "No, she doesn't even - June doesn't even remember him." And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that is about the only thing I talked about mostly her personal things not about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to her about it but she did not and I really did not ask.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it?
Mrs. RAY - No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it."
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret Service, and FBI?
Mrs. RAY - She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same, everyone came to my house, they were very nice people.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you read in the papers since the assassination a story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. RAY - In the papers?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mrs. RAY - Richard Nixon?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss that with Marina at all?
Mrs. RAY - I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on Richard Nixon. I did not know it.
Mr. LIEBELER - The story was not that he had actually done so, that he wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it.

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Mrs. RAY - ThatiIs the first I heard about it that you mention It. I am sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I missed that one.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. RAY - I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone else?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit suicide or attempt to?
Mrs. RAY - No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian?
Mrs. RAY - No; I spoke to him in English.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever hear him speak Russian?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak Russian?
Mrs. RAY - He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending, every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by foreigner.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think he spoke Russian well?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I think - I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in Russia to learn perfect it.
Mr. LIEEELEE. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that?
Mrs. RAY - His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know. I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would speak.
Mr. LIEBELER - After 3 years or so?
Mrs. RAY - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You did not think he had any special training in the Russian language?
Mrs. RAY - No; I did not think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever discuss this question with him?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; because - I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs. Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad, you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad; when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't recall anything about hearing anything about Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from Leningrad to Minsk, If she did?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met Oswald in Russia and why she married him?
Mrs. RAY - I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her about that.

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Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what was said?
Mrs. RAY - I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just - what did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that funny? This is just few weeks ago - me and my brain, but I know they said they went together little while and she fell in love with him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Could you tell us what your first name is?
Mrs. RAY - My first name is Valentina.
Mr. LIEBELER - You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of Russia, did you?
Mrs. RAY - Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had a lot to do with it.
Mr. LIEBELER - What do you mean when you say you "Imagine"?
Mrs. RAY - If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany. I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to.
Mr. LIEBELER - So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own experience.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of your acquaintance?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he was even - I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even though you did not do anything or speak two words to him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called Mrs. Ford and talked. to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it was him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised?
Mrs. RAY - She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any kind of opinion what kind of person he was.
Mr. LIEBELER - But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous or prone to violence?
Mrs. RAY - I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he struck Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you or your husband ever give any money to the Oswalds?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said you gave some baby clothes?
Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small children, I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my 2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear corduroy pants and stuff like that.

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Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any money or groceries or clothes or anything like that?
Mrs. RAY - No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend any money?
Mrs. RAY - No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store. She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by us.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that night Lee came over to your house?
Mrs. RAY - No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly it was he begged her to come back.
Mr. LIEBELER - But Marina never told you what they talked about?
Mrs. RAY - No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to come back; he was very - and she left. She mostly mention he cried and begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back."
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one who killed the President?
Mrs. RAY - Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was connected with anyone, but done it on his own.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss why he might have done it?
Mrs. RAY - No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really knows what prompted him to do such a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you discussed with your friends and thought about any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RAY - Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee Oswald. He was not a night club, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go to nightclub. He despised them.
Mr. LIEBELER - Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her?
Mrs. RAY - We talked little bit about that since - I mean this last few weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after this all happened.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations?
Mrs. RAY - She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did

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hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it.
Mr. LIEBELER - You never discussed it with Marina?
Mrs. RAY - No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything like that may have been the case?
Mrs. RAY - No; no reason at all I do not know who it could be; most are older people.
Mr. LIEBELER - There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway?
Mrs. RAY - No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear It from anybody at all.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you did not suspect it yourself?
Mrs. RAY - No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to buy a rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - I don't think I have any more questions at this point. I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission might want to know about or should know about.
Mrs. RAY - I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr. George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took us out, her and me, to lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was after the assassination?
Mrs. RAY - No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald came and got her before we did anything.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was Marina there at the time?
Mrs. RAY - Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER - Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald?
Mrs. RAY - He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will help you if you afraid" We went to store; she needed baby food; It amounted to $7, groceries, baby food.
Mr. LIEBELER - When was this?
Mrs. RAY - About 2 weeks ago.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries?
Mrs. RAY - Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes. I had enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have money, too." He is generous whenever he hears someone comes to this country he is first one help them. He helped Anna Meller go to school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired of dragging her by the ear. She did

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want to go so he gave up on her but he has always been very, very helpful with people.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was resentful - thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying to interfere with his marriage?
Mrs. RAY - I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian thrown out in the street. We had to help her; It was not interference with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and food for her baby.
Mr. LIEBELER - My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful?
Mrs. RAY - I think he resented taking things from people because when she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything. He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually talking to him alone.
Mr. LIEBELER - If you cannot think of anything else that you think you would like to tell us, I have no further questions.
Mrs. RAY - I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you think of anything else?
Mrs. RAY - No; I cannot think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER - I want to thank you very much for coming down.
Mrs. RAY - You are certainly welcome.
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