Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and take the oath, please?
Do you swear in your testimony to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I do. Now, I want to tell you before I start--there is some question---I just have to go back from memory.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. All we mean when we say "the truth" is just to the best of your ability.
Mr. SHASTEEN. When I ever talked to him, I never dreamed I would ever see him again--you see?
Mr. JENNER. Sure. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Rankin; the General Counsel of the Commission?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; the chief of police came out yesterday afternoon. He's a good friend of mine. and he came out yesterday evening and had me to call----
Mr. JENNER. The Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner Jr., and a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, which is a Commission appointed by President Lyndon Johnson to investigate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and all of the circumstances surrounding that tragic event.
The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission and fixing its scope of operation and its power. Under the regulations of the Commission, the members of the staff are authorized to take depositions and swear witnesses.
We understand from various sources, FBI reports--that you may possibly have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald in which the Commission is interested and there might be some other information on which we are not immediately advised that may come to your mind.
Mr. JENNER. As I understand it, your full name is Clifford----
Mr. SHASTEEN. Clifton [spelling] C-l-i-f-t-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. M is your initial?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Shasteen. S-h-a-s-t-e-e-n.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You live at 2214 Fairfax in Irving, Tex. As I understand it, you are the owner and operator of Clifton's Barbershop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At 1321 South Storey in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You are a native of Dallas, are you?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I've been here about 20 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's good enough and you are married and have a family and live in Irving, Tex., as indicated?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that in the course of your looking at television on the 22d of November 1963, there occurred to you upon seeing some of the people shown on the screen that you had rendered some tonsorial services to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you Just as near as I can remember that day--what happened is the TV shop next to me, in other words, about two doors down----
Mr. JENNER. Next to your business?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I heard it over the radio and went to the house at noon and that was all you could see on television, just the flashing, but there wasn't anything definite, so I went back to the shop and as I went back to the shop this fellow in the TV shop said, "Why don't you come in and get a TV set and set it up in your Shop in there and watch it?" So, I went in and got a TV set and the name didn't mean anything to me when they first mentioned the name.
Mr. JENNER. The name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SHASTEEN. It didn't mean a thing, but later on in the evening when we began to see the pictures, you know, after they had him over here the first I remember seeing him to recognize that I had saw the face before was about----over there around 5 o'clock, when I saw him over at the jail or something and I seen him when they come out there and when he looked toward the cameras.
I didn't say anything to anybody. I had before told them, you know, what I said was just a gag--I said, "You can't tell. That guy might live here in Irving." You know how guys pop off or something, but I didn't know a thing about it. I was just going on, but anyhow, when that come on there, there was several in the shop and so I decided when I saw his picture I remembered him coming in the shop and I just knew that. It finally dawned on me where I had saw him. I knew where he lived. Actually, I knew where the station wagon was that was parked, that I saw him and this lady in, so I just took out of the shop and told the boy, I said, "I'm going to run to the house and I'll be back in a minute.
So, I drove up there and my lands of living, you couldn't get within 4 blocks of that house, and knew then I was not mistaken that that was the guy that came in my barber shop, and when I came back to the shop--when I got back to the shop somebody else had already seen me. up there and said they saw Cliff up there and everybody in that community knows me. When we got back to the shop, then, we began to talk about it. All three of- the barbers in there have cut his hair, but I cut it more, I guess, than the rest of them did. I think the boy on the front chair cut it once and the boy in the middle chair cut it a couple of times, but I think I cut his hair three or four times. I don't know just exactly because since then I have backed up and looked at it and tried to remember the dates he was in there and tried to tell you just the way it was when he would come in, he was alway disgruntled, and the only time I ever saw him smile he had on a pair of yellow house shoes and I never saw any like them before.
Mr. JENNER. Sneakers?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; slip-ons, only they were a little heavy--they were just a little heavier than just a common house shoe, and I admired them and I said, "Them looks expensive," and he said, "They are not."
"He said, "I gave a dollar and a half for them." I said, "My goodness, where did you get a pair of house shoes for a dollar and a half?" And he said, "Down in Old Mexico."
Mr. JENNER. Down in Old Mexico?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And I said, "Man, I'd like to have a pair of them because I have to wear a shoe built up," you see and they were heavy enough that I could build that shoe up and he said, "Well, I'll get you a pair the next time I'm down there," and that is the only time he ever was nice and polite-in the conversation, any time anything would come up--anybody else would talk to him, he was just disgruntled.
I remember him particularly one time. The barber in the front chair, one Saturday morning, he cut his hair. You know, the barber chair is only so far from the sink, but there's not room for two men between that and the sink. Well, the fellow on the front chair cut his hair and he gets up and goes back in the middle chair and gets between the barber and his bench back there and stands back behind and combs his hair.
In other words, what he was trying to do---fixing to or wanting to, he just pushed him out. He was just rude and we all remembered that time, because this boy that works for me that's here, he is more or less high strung type of guy. I mean he is a real good fellow but you wouldn't want to push him too far and I remembered that real well, and I saw him the only time I remember seeing him, you know, other than just going in the grocery store across the street, Mr. Hutchison's food market, and I was down at the drugstore one night, down at Williamsburg's and he was in there.
Mr. JENNER. Williamsburg's--that's in Irving?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it's down on Rock Island and Rogers Road. And, why I remembered seeing him in there, I knew I couldn't understand his wife, and that was before--- I believe it was before she had her baby. The best I remember she was pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen her before?
Mr. SHASTEEN. That's the only time I had ever saw her, that I remember. You know, she may have come to the grocery store with him but I didn't pay any attention. Sometimes there were two women with him and I assumed it was Mrs. Paine, but Mrs. Paine has never been in the shop. I have saw her around, you know, like my brother-in-law used to live right across the street from her and the fellow that lives right on the corner and I'm trying to think of his name----
Mr. JENNER. On the fifth?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And Westbrook that old gentleman, I knew him for years, but I don't never call his name and I can't think of it now to save my neck. I would know it if I hear it called, but anyhow, you know, I've stopped by and chatted with him a lot of times in the daytime. I've got some rent houses, you know, and I would get out of the shop and I would go by and see them and I would come by this fellow's house and I would stop there and I saw Mrs. Paine out in the yard and I know-all of the people that live around there nearly, around the Paine's house, but I never had any connection with Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine.
Them is the things there about Oswald that I personally, you know, that I ever paid any attention to and one other time" when the boy in the middle chair cut his hair. It was on Friday night and it was about 5 or 10 minutes to 7, the best I remember. Now, why I am saying this is the fact that I was going to a football game. My shop has a door in the back and then there is a storage room on one side and a restroom on the other, but when you open the two doors, you see, there is just a narrow place and it kind of makes it private back there, and I change clothes back there, and I had the door but, as he came in the front door, I started out--I went out the back. The next morning this boy that works in the middle chair--he didn't go to the football game, but the boy that works there, and I slipped off and went to the football game---business had kind of slowed up about that time. But anyhow, he really was inquisitive as to where I went. He wanted to know where I was going and what I was going to do--he asked thi s guy cutting his hair. I You see, he didn't think nothing about it then. He just thought maybe he wanted me to cut his hair and that is the only time there.
Of course, there is some other things that happened but I could kick my own self for. There was a 14-year-old boy come in with him a few times, and---not every time, but I know he has been in there as much as two or three times with him, but he never did say nothing until about 3 or 4 days before this incident happened. This kid was in the shop----
Mr. JENNER. Three or four days before November 22?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. This boy was in the shop and the boy in the front chair was cutting his hair, and you know how men are talking, and there is this old saying, "If you haven't heard this .you haven't been around barbershops." The guys are always talking about we spend too much money overseas and we give away this and we give away that and you know, just the general consumption of the whole country and how everything is going. They talk that in the barbershop and you hear it Until you want to run.
Mr. JENNER. That's right, they solve all the problems of the world.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but anyhow, there was several guys in there and they were talking one evening and this kid was in there, and the best I remember, it must have been--well, some of the guys that were in there work the night shift, and I think they go to work around 3:30 or 4 o'clock, so, I know it was around 3 or 2:30, or 3.
Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and this kid was in here.
Mr. JENNER. Were you there?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; what I am saying is--after they were doing all this talking and the kid hadn't opened his mouth and the fellow on the front chair was cutting his hair and he is a quiet guy and he never says nothing about politics in no shape, form, or fashion. However, I. try to keep all of us barbers out of politics because it isn't good business when you get politics in there you get out of the barber business and .all this talk was going on and I could tell he was listening and directly. he said, "I can tell you when you will stop all of this greed and everything."
And I said, "What do you mean, son?" And, he said, "Well, when you have one leader over everyone else." And, he said, leader-- he didn't just say country. I remember that--how he said it. And, I said, "What do you mean 'one leader' "? And he said, Well, when you don't have a leader in every little old country and them trying to scramble with one another" and he said, "Another thing, like you--you own the shop and these other fellows work for you and you get part of their money and he said when everybody has a say, when one man is not allowed to hog up the whole country and let another man starve," he says "that's when we are going to quit having wars and all this junk." And I said, "Where in the world did you get that kind of stuff?"
He never did answer me, but it made me so--if I knew then what, I know now, I would probably have took him and bought him a steak to try to quiz him and find out who it was and where he got all of that. Instead, it made me mad, just to be honest about it--I would like to have took one of them razor straps and tore him up. If he had been a 14-year-old boy of mine that said a thing like that he would have got it, but he got up and left the shop and I haven;t heard him. since, and I didn't find out where he lived, who he was or nothing. The anger in him saying that is where I did it, and I--the guy that talks like that, I know one thing I should, as Mr. Odum told me, I should have found out where he lived, where he went to school or something, but I didn't do it. It just made me so mad the thing I wanted him to do was get out of there.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum is the FBI agent?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he's one of them, and I know Mr. Odum--he came back. He wasn't the first one that came to talk to me, but he has come back several times and I met him several times--I don't know, I will be honest with you--I don't--I know how to call him at any time, but that's where your old temper gets away with you. I realize now that I should have just, when the kid said that, instead of saying anything back to him--I didn't have to agree with him, but I could have found out where he lived, what he did and that kind of thing, but you know it had to take something like this before it wakes up some of us and I never give it a thought.
Just like Oswald--I owned the shop and naturally I wanted to see every head of hair come in there that will, but the thing of it is--a guy like Oswald and that kid--you just disagree with them so much that you hope they don't ever come back and that's the attitude I felt, but I know I was wrong about it, trot it's done and there ain't nothing I can do about it.
I just have watched and watched and I don't know a soul to ask, because Oswald is dead and he's the only one I ever saw that kid with--he is the only one that I ever saw that kid with and I don't remember seeing him since that time I don't know who he was any more than nothing.
Mr. JENNER. How many times--you personally, now, without someone else having told you the boy was in the shop, how many times do you recall when he was in your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. The 14-year-old boy?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Three times--I know. In other words, I know he came with Oswald the night I'm talking about when he wanted to know where I was going and I went to the back door. You see, I seen them coming in and I did hurry to get out the back door.
Mr. JENNER. The boy came in?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He was with him that night and he was with him one other time.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix that particular time?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was a couple of weeks and maybe 3 weeks before that night.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me the night you say you were going out to the football game when was that?
Mr. SHASTEEN. It was Friday night and this was the last time Oswald came in and I'm just saying this as near as I think, but I think it was--in other words--was it Thursday or Friday that the President was killed?
Mr. JENNER. Friday the 22d.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was probably 2 weeks before that.
Mr. JENNER. Two weeks before that?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And it was about Monday night before that when the kid--it could be a week's difference there, but I don't think it is.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday. This football game incident occurred, you think, 2 weeks prior?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the evening of the 8th of November?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe that's right, just as near right as I can get it.
Mr. JENNER. That was a high school football game on Friday night, as I remember?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; like I say, it could have possibly been 3 weeks prior to that, but I'm almost sure it wasn't. I'm so nearly sure I would say it was almost for sure.
Mr. JENNER. It could possibly have been the 1st of November but you are pretty sure that it was the 8th?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I just nearly knew it was the 8th, I think it was the 8th and I'll tell you why I think it was the 8th.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is, he never did want his hair cut--he always wanted it to look like it was about a week old when he cut it and he got a haircut about every 2 weeks, and I don't think he ever went over 2 weeks--he either got a haircut on Friday night or Saturday morning, and in running that back through my mind, and I thought about it then and I have since.
Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion was this 14-year-old boy with him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the occasion when you were sneaking out to the football game?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you did see him and you did see the 14-year-old boy on that occasion?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which of your employees cut his hair that night, if you know of your own knowledge.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Buddy Lowe, the one that just works part time.
Mr. JENNER. The new man--the middle chair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, and the only thing--he had told me the next morning, you know, about it and I wondered why I didn't think something about the character, but the next morning, he said, "Man, that guy was really inquisitive about where you were going last night." That guy that come in with him. Of course, we don't know his name from Adam and we have lots of customers that we don't know their names.
Mr. JENNER. When he came in with the 14-year-old boy, did the 14-year-old boy get his hair cut at the same time?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. He just sat in the shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He just come with him. I assumed, and I'm just saying this because I haven't ever saw him before and never saw him other than with Oswald, that he doesn't live in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe the boy lived there, because, you know, in other words--it has been in the back of my mind and the last--and when I see school kids, I'm always kind of wondering if I'm ever going to see him again and I never, had never saw that kid since.
Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that boy since?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, normally, this man you have in mind has his hair cut every 2 weeks?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Either on Friday night or on Saturday morning?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And there were occasions when you personally cut his hair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I think I cut it--I know of three times that I cut it and I might have cut it more than that, but I don't think that I did because you just can't hardly forget a guy like that or you can't miss knowing him when he is in your chair.
Mr. JENNER. You Cut his hair three times and your other barbers in your shop, your employees, also cut his hair, is that right?
Mr. SHASTEEN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time----
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I would say we cut his hair five or possibly six times.
Mr. JENNER. Five or six times?
Mr. SHASTEEN. At least.
Mr. JENNER. Five and possibly six?
Mr. SHASTEEN. At least--being in the barber business and all and studying people and all, they might go an extra week, but ordinarily, you know, in cutting their hair, you can tell about how long they've gone in other words, if you knew how they cut it before, you can tell just about how long they have gone for a haircut, and that's what I was referring to a while ago, and it was about 2 weeks before that, and the only times I can remember definitely out of the five times and possibly six he was in my shop--I'd say that all the five or six times was in succession either, it might have been--he may have missed some haircuts and one or two in between somewhere in there.
Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean he might have had his hair cut somewhere else?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I'm just trying to figure out this 22d and the 8th--did this hair-cutting go back into the summer?
Mr. SHASTEEN. You know, that's--like I say, that's a saying--to point back, and you know, just to say that that is the first time this guy has come in here I just can't pinpoint the first time. In other words, it has been hard and I have tried to think, especially after I got that call yesterday evening to come over here. I tried to run that back through my mind and I wouldn't say when was the first time he was in there and of course we have talked about it--me and the barbers, and it seemed to me like there was a dead spot in there. Some time maybe a month or 6 weeks that we might not have saw him, be the first time I cut his hair, but the last three haircuts--it seemed to me like he was pretty regular.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He was pretty regular--at the last three.
Mr. JENNER. So, if you had a dead spot, allowing for--let's say getting a hair-cut somewhere else occasionally, or not coming in precisely at the end of every 2-week period and having in mind that your present recollection is at least five or six occasions, that would run it back into the summertime?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it was. In other words, 2 or 8 or 4 months that we had been seeing him, but I don't know just exactly to the date or nothing.
Mr. JENNER. On how many of these occasions would you say---does your recollection serve you--as to whether he was accompanied by this 14-year-old boy?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Twice in other words--the only times I remember seeing the boy was twice when he was with him. He was with him the night he got the haircut, the last time he was in the shop, and he was with him before that, the time before that this kid was with him. The two last times he was in the shop, this boy was with him, and that's the only time I ever saw the boy with him, but then about--in other words, what I am saying, he came in on Friday, was we'll say it is the 8th there and then a week from this coming Monday the boy was in and got a haircut, but Oswald wasn't with him. The boy came in by himself and that tries to contradict what I said that I don't think he lived in Irving, but why I said I don't think he lived in Irving, I have never saw him before and I have been there 4 years and I have seen so many kids grow up and I know their names, but I know their faces, but I just have never saw him before, and that's one of those times that you are sorry that you, like I said, let your temper get away. Since the n I have really wished--if I had done something, because this kid in my estimation, even though he is warped in his thinking, and I think he is warped, he could be helped if somebody could get ahold of him, but I was the one that had an opportunity to try to and I let it slip.
Mr. JENNER. What do you charge for a haircut?
Mr. SHASTEEN. $1.25.
Mr. JENNER. And that is cash on the barrelhead, isn't it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. I tell you that much--like somebody comes in and wants to know if they can get a free haircut, and when somebody goes to giving you something, you had better watch out--you had better be careful.
Mr. JENNER. And you manage the till?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, no, sir; each one of us, we all have our same drawers. I don't have a cash register, we have drawers, and that way, if they give the wrong change back, it's not anything out of my pocket.
Mr. JENNER. You cut hair and you have two----
Mr. SHASTEEN. I have one full time and one part time.
Mr. JENNER. You have three chairs?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasions you saw this man would you describe his appearance so far as his attire is concerned? How was he dressed?
Mr. SHASTEEN. The best I remember is that he had on some kind of coveralls, nearly every time he came in.
Mr. JENNER. Coveralls?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he wore unionalls or coveralls, you know, sir. were G.I., of some description and they were green or a khaki-colored. The only time he wasn't dressed that way when he came in the shop was the night I went to the football game and that night he had on a pair of old worn out dress pants of some kind, they were dark, and he had on a sports shirt with his shirttail out.
Mr. JENNER. Let me get at these coveralls--would you describe them?
Mr. SHASTEEN. They buttoned down the front.
Mr. JENNER. They buttoned down the front and they had sleeves--it was a one-piece unit?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And covers you from top to bottom, full sleeves?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, one pair--one time I remember--he had pretty hairy arms. I remember that about him, you know, he had black hair on his arms, and one time he had on short sleeves. These coveralls had the sleeves cut off and they were ragged--I mean--they were long sleeves originally but they had just been chopped off. He is the type of guy that when you met him you couldn't hardly forget him. I'll say that. I mean, there is just something about him and I think I could say that for all three of us that worked there in the shop that every time he came in--we would ask him to come back, but right down deep we didn't want him back.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shave?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shampoo?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing but a haircut?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Just a haircut.
Mr. JENNER. And what color did you say these coveralls were?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, they were either--I don't know what color you call them old dungarees. You know, them old combat coveralls that the Army wears. That's what they were. Now, somebody, I believe that Mr. Odum is the one that asked me was they Marine coveralls or Army or something like that, and that, I don't have any idea on.
Mr. JENNER. They were the military type?
Mr. SHASTEEN. They were the military type. They wasn't the kind you just go down to the dry goods store and buy. I know that. He may have bought them at a surplus store for all I know.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were there occasions you saw this man that you have in mind on the street when he didn't come into your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, I saw him going to the grocery store when he didn't come to the shop.
Mr. JENNER. And you occasionally saw him--is the grocery store across the street?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That's Hutch's Market?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he dressed on those occasions?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I think most usually, like I said, the only time I ever saw him with anything but those coveralls on was that night he came in the shop--he had those on--those old coveralls on when he was over there and another thing, they were big for him. I always noticed they were big enough for him and somebody else.
Mr. JENNER. They were very loose-fitting?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And even on those occasions when you saw him across the street at Hutch's, he had the coveralls, the military- type coveralls on?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; of course. He could have went in there times I didn't see him. And I don't know how many times I saw him but I have seen him over there.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I just want the times that you saw him.
Mr. SHASTEEN. I wouldn't even commence to guess---probably three or four times over there.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him about three or four times across the street?
Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words, his store sits over here and my shop is here and these glasses, lot of them down here, a lot of times if somebody has been in the shop that you are paying attention to, you can even see them in the back mirrors, back there and he---and you just notice and you are. always looking at the front door. I mean, since I own the shop I ask everybody in.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have the chair next to the window?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I have the back chair.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't cut the young man's hair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he was in the front chair---the front barber chair with Mr. Glover.
Mr. JENNER. And would you describe this young man to me, how was he dressed?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he had on blue jeans and they fit tight and he had on an old striped shirt, I remember him just like I see a picture over there right now and he was a husky kid, he wasn't what you call fat, but he was strong--broad-shouldered--he had a real full, and when I say full, I don't mean a round fat face, he was a wide-faced kid. You know, he was a nice looking kid. I mean, if he had had the personality and the teaching and the understanding to go with his looks, he could have done anything he wanted to do, but his personality to me made him look terrible and what he thought, and naturally when somebody disagrees with you to the point you get angry with them, you don't think much of their looks, but if you bring it down to his looks, he was blue-eyed, blonde-headed--he was not a light blonde he was a dark blonde. In fact a lot of. people might call him brown-headed. But he wasn't nobody's dummy because a 14-year-old boy can't spit out--I wouldn't attempt to say just how he said everything, but the things t hat struck me when he belittled our country and our leaders as a whole I might disagree with our leaders but I'll stick up for them when it comes time down to the point.
Mr. JENNER. Sure, and you have a distinct recollection, do you, that there were occasions when you saw this man in the coveralls over at Hutch's Market that he was accompanied by somebody else?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize any of the persons who were accompanying him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I wouldn't say I did because most of the time---they headed--they got out of the car and we saw their backs, and I would see him and I just knew it was him. Once you cut somebody's hair that close you are close enough so that you know them outside or when you see them.
Mr. JENNER. So, you're not in a position, I take it, then, to say that you have a distinct recollection that Mrs. Paine accompanied them at anytime?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, now, that part of it I would have to take for granted because they were in his car. Now, she, I understand through one of the men who questioned me out at the shop, said he never did drive her car. Again, I'm going to disagree because I know that he did. He drove it up there and got a haircut.
Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the grocery store I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that that' was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions when you have a recollection as to his being accompanied by more than one person?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; that's what I said--I saw him and two ladies get out and go in the store.
Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions did you see that?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I was trying to think of that coming over here and I know of twice and one of the times that I'm saying--it was the next morning after he had gotten a haircut the night I went to the football game, the next morning they were over to the store. You see, I open up early around 7 in the morning and it was 8 o'clock, or so, not knowing the exact hour. I would say it was 8 o'clock or 8:30 when they were over at the store that Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the 9th of November?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; because. one reason it made me remember that, I had just come back--I had just come back from across the street to get some cigarettes and they come up and pulled in and I walked over and naturally I looked back across the street and I saw them getting out and he wasn't driving at that time. I will agree but whenever I saw him come with somebody else in the car he wasn't driving, but occasionally he drove himself up there to get a haircut and Mr. Odum says, "Now, that contradicts with some of the other information." I said, "I can't help what it contradicts with, that's just the fact and that's it."
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him driving up that he had the 14-year-old boy-with him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; the night he got the haircut.
Mr. JENNER. The night of November 8?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; you see the difficulty was, I was wanting to get out of giving a haircut and I had just gotten through with a guy, and I was trying to get my tools put up and they pulled up in front and I kind of left them half cocked, half cleaned up, and I ran back in the closet to try to get away, because I saw there was two of them, you see, and I figured they both would want a haircut. When they pulled up with the headlights and I saw two get out I figured they both would want a haircut.
Mr. JENNER. This was night, was it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was dark?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, yes; it was done dark outside I couldn't tell who they were when they drove up but he was driving that night and I was hurrying trying to get out and I went out the back door, because ordinarily, if there had been two, one of them would have wanted me to cut his hair and the other one would want the other boy to, and I thought, well, maybe they can wait and let me go to the football game. It's hard for me to get away for a football game and that night was when the boy was with him and he drove up there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall being interviewed by FBI Agent Berry on the 3d of December?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. And he is from Oklahoma, I believe. He came on the 4th, I mean on the 2d, and came back on the 3d.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall saying at that time that you had a recollection that he had been at your shop for the purpose of obtaining a haircut for the past 2 or 3 months?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And when was the occasion in point of time that this business respecting the yellow shoes occurred--how far prior to that?
Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words on the 8th there, he got a haircut on a Friday night.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. SHASTEEN. And I would say it was 2 or 3 weeks before that on Saturday morning, because I was the only one in the shop and he was the first one there that morning.
Mr. JENNER. On reflection, you fix it as 2 to 3 weeks on a Saturday morning prior to November 8?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That would take us ,back to--that would be either the 25th of October or the 18th of October?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Possibly; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been 2 to 3 months prior?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe so, not when he had the shoes on, the house shoes on that morning, because the thing that made me remember that was the fact that it seemed like I'd found something he agreed with me on. He even smiled about this; you know, he had a good look on his face when I complimented his house shoes.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day was this?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, it was probably 6:45 in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. It was a Saturday morning?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling Agent Berry that when he interviewed you on the 3d of December 1963, that your faint recollection of Oswald was when he appeared in the shop, your shop on a Saturday, "2 or 3 months ago at 6:30 in the morning," when you had just opened your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. The first time I remember him was early one morning.
Mr. JENNER. And that you remembered him particularly because on this particular occasion he was wearing house shoes which you considered out of the ordinary?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, he wore house shoes every time he come over there in the mornings. I think he may have that a little bit crossed there when he and I talked about it.
Mr. JENNER. And that you also said you had commented to Oswald concerning the house shoes and suggested that they must be quite expensive and Oswald said, "No; not where I bought them," and you stated that he said he had purchased the shoes in Old Mexico for only a dollar and a half?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice there is an inconsistency there you were firm that the house shoes incident occurred 2 to 3 weeks prior to November 8, but in reporting this to Agent Berry on the 3d of December, you stated it occurred 2 to 3 months prior thereto.
Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe to tell you the truth, I think in the round of the talking, I think he just taken that for granted. I don't believe on that morning--what we were talking about when I said what made me remember it--like even the night when I saw his picture on television and all, was the fact that that's the only time, about his house shoes, is the only time he ever was agreeable I'll put it that way, in other words, but he didn't talk much then. In other words, when that was over he just hushed.
Mr. JENNER. This hasn't been called to your attention, but is it your testimony then, as I understand it, that you are firm that the incident occurred 2 to 3 weeks prior to November 8 rather than 2 to 3 months and you think Agent Berry misinterpreted it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He either misinterpreted what I said----
Mr. JENNER. Or jumped to a conclusion?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe these coveralls a little bit further--they were full length?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did they zipper or button down the front?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, that I wouldn't--you know, to make a statement to say I knew, I wouldn't say, but I would almost-say that they buttoned. At least they had a button at the top.
Mr. JENNER. And did he normally have them buttoned up to the top, or did he have them open at the throat?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he had them open, but another thing--you know--there are little things, like we get to thinking about now--I know that these old coveralls-he wore them like that [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. He wore them with the collar up?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and just flopping out.
Mr. JENNER. And you remember one occasion when the coveralls, while they were long sleeved, somebody had sheared off the sleeves on a particular pair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they were just ragged, they were just chopped off.
Mr. JENNER. Otherwise, the sleeves were always long down to his wrists?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you this--one of the barbers said his head was dirty he cut his hair, but he was always clean when I worked on him.
Mr. JENNER. It's hard to explain.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe these house shoes, please?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, yes; they were I wish I could find something--they were a darker yellow than this right here [indicating]. And they had a much tanner sole on them--it was almost what you call a brown sole. It wasn't a leather, it wasn't a rubber, it was like a neoprene.
Mr. JENNER. The soles were darker than the uppers?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were they firm leather, or soft or pliable?
Mr. SHASTEEN. They were soft and nice, but they were sturdy house shoes. Of course like I said, I build a shoe up---one shoe and they made me notice them, and they were the type you could have built one up and they would still have stood up and been nice.
Mr. JENNER. Were these house shoes that had fiat soles without heels?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes--they didn't have no heels--they may have had a little heel, but I mean they didn't have an extra heel, because I looked. at them good. I mean, I wasn't interested in them until he said he got them from Old Mexico, and I knew that was out.
Mr. JENNER. Were they the pull-on type or lace type?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; they were the just the pull-on type.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have any type of elastic in them?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No--no elastic--they were just like loafers to a degree, only they were nice shoes--it was just a slip-on and they had a spur piece in the back.
Mr. JENNER. A spur piece?
Mr. SHASTEEN. You know what I mean--the back wasn't so flexible--it was firm--a fitted heel. They were just real nice.
Mr. JENNER. They had a reasonably firm or higher heel?
Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words--what I'm talking about--up on the back part of them.
Mr. JENNER. The back part is what I'm talking about.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What we call the heel of the shoe the back of the shoe, not the heel you step on.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes---this part here and then they had a round thing, you know, like this here [indicating] only it went out and dropped down to a point out here and had a seam sewed around the top, whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER. Like a moccasin type?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they looked like a moccasin to a degree and these loafers, as you called them, but they were in between.
Mr. JENNER. Were they perfectly plain other than the moccasin sewing?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe they were they didn't have no--that's the reason I thought they would have been from Mexico is they, if they had had a lot of trimmings on them or something like that, but they didn't have.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have fasteners of any type on them?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; that's why I liked them. They were just something I could've jumped in.
Mr. JENNER. No metal fasteners?
Mr. SHASTEEN. They didn't have nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Or even leather fasteners?
Mr. SHASTEEN. If somebody would find them I would still give two and a half for them.
Mr. JENNER. How many haircuts did he get----
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Six or seven, is that what you said?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he could have possibly gotten seven haircuts but I think about six haircuts is what he got. It could have possibly been five.
I know, personally three times I cut his hair and I know that the front guy cut his hair one time, Mr. Clover, and Mr. Law cut his hair one time and Buddy--he might have cut it one other time and if he did that would've made six.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling Agent Berry that in all this man had obtained six or seven haircuts at your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I told him it was possibly six or seven, you know, in other words--he didn't pin me down to just exactly--he wanted to know if I thought it was and I told him it could have been seven times.
Mr. JENNER. Seven or eight?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I believe---I don't believe he ever got eight haircuts in there I don't believe it could have been over seven.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is that the agent reports as you said that Oswald had obtained seven or eight haircuts at your shop.
Mr. SHASTEEN. You see, I told him about the times I remembered and he said, "Could he possibly have been in here more than that?" And I said, "Sure he could have possibly been in here more than that, but to have an actual remembrance of him--I wouldn't."
Mr. JENNER. But in any event, your present recollection, after thinking it through further, is that it was six, and it might even have been as few as five?
Mr. SHASTEEN. It could have been five, but I personally know of five times he was in there and like I told him, he could have been in there two or three other times when I wasn't in there, because sometimes, it's not very often I do, but occasionally Mr. Law will open up in the morning and I won't be there right on time. Because, like I said, I went to a football game and that--there could have been other times that he came in that I wasn't there, but I asked Buddy did he ever remember cutting his hair and he said he thought he did cut it another time than the time---so if he did, there was six times, and of course, Mr. Glover, he doesn't keep up with whose hair he cuts as much as some of the others--he's not a friendly type guy, but Buddy said he might have cut his hair more than once.
The things that made us know when he cut his hair is like when Mr. Clover cut his hair, he went around and instead of using his back bar to look in the mirror and comb his hair, he went down to the one at the middle chair and just rudely pushed out of the way and he got up there and combed his hair and turned his water on, you know, and got some more oil and put on it, on his hair, and he didn't say thank you or excuse me or nothing. He just pushed in there those things make you remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever give you a tip?
Mr. SHASTEEN.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever give any of the other barbers a tip?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is it customary for your customers to give you a tip?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or customers to give your barbers a tip?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, naturally, they get more tips than I do because I own the shop. It would be a very small percentage, because in a community like that they just expect to pay what the price is.
Mr. JENNER. And no tips?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; you know, you might get 50 cents or a dollar a day--something like if somebody might pitch something up there and say, "Get you some coffee." It's not that type of a barber shop--it's not a hotel type or anything like that or a bus station type.
Mr. JENNER. Did this man have any reaction to the haircuts you gave him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, instead of saying--I get tickled thinking about it--I don't mean it's funny, but it is irritating. I mean, it's funny since it's over, but he never did say, "That looks nice," or "That's all right." He would say, "Aw, that's pretty good that will do until I get another one or that will do for this time." He never did say, "That's a good haircut." I do remember him saying, "Take a 32d off of the temple." Well, you can't take a 32d off of a man's hair, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He did come back then?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; we have talked about that--I don't care if we put it on the record--it's the truth with us barbers--we have laughed about it, but he's not the only one that said, "Take a third of it," you know. We laughed about his saying, "Take a 32d," or he would say, "Take a 16th off of the top," or something. I do remember him saying them things.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was just kidding about it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I don't know but to barbers that's silly, you know. It's just ridiculous for a man to say "Take a 32d," or raise his temples a 32d or take a 16th or something off of the top You cut hair like the shingles on a house. You cut it to where it will feather in and not leave gaps. If you pulled it all up and cut it all the same length and turned it back down on your head, you would have a mess.
Mr. JENNER. It would look pretty bad?
Mr. SHASTEEN. It sure would.
Mr. JENNER. It might look like some of the haircuts I get, occasionally.
Mr. SHASTEEN. But those things--I believe that news reporter--I have for-was, but she asked me a while ago a few things about him and I said, "He's just the type of guy you couldn't forget but you just hoped he never come back."
But she wasn't--she wanted to know what kind of nature he was or something like that. That's what makes barbering interesting-- you meet all kinds.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I'm sure you do.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. And like you were talking about there he came back--one time one of the barbers--now this time I don't know, more know which time it was than anything, but there was somebody sitting out in the chair, and they made a remark about him saying take a certain amount off and after he left, I said, "Well, we get that amount off." And this fellow said, "How in the world do you do that?" And I said, "Well, we satisfy him--and if he is real satisfied, when he leaves, he comes back." I always make dry cracks and things like that, that breaks the monotony in the shop and I have practiced it, and it's hard for me to be serious sometimes, you know, about things, and you just have to break the monotony in the barber shop or people would get in there and get soured on the world.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Robert Davis has come in and .he is a special assistant attorney general of Texas, and this is Mr. Shasteen, Mr. Davis. He owns and operates a barber shop in Irving, Tex.
Mr. DAVIS. Yes--Mr. Shasteen.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did these coveralls have any pockets in them?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--what do they look like, looking at them just the full front?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, the full front?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes; as I'm looking at you now across the desk here.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, the ones that were cut off at the sleeves, I can remember the most. They just had some old pockets up here--[indicating].
Mr. JENNER. On each breast area?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a large pocket, large patch pocket?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; they were just outside patch pockets and pockets on the front were patch pockets, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean at the hip on either side?
Mr. SHASTEEN. They had some front pockets on either side.
Mr. JENNER. Just one pocket or two?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, you pin me down until--to say that, I don't know. I noticed the top, but I did notice the hip pockets they had two hip pockets on them. When he got his billfold out, I just wondered how in the world, if he ever sat down he didn't lose the thing. You know, they were big enough--that's why I said they were big enough for two. They sagged and the pockets just leaned back and you could have just walked up and reached in there and got his billfold and never touched him.
Mr. JENNER. None of these pockets had flaps or buttons on them?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I think the two of them up here maybe had a flap.
Mr. JENNER. The two top ones had a flap?
Mr. SHASTEEN. The hip pockets didn't--they didn't have no flap or button.
Mr. JENNER. They were patch pockets, too?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And these coveralls were so loose fitting that it made the pockets hang down?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they were just real loose. Even if you had a belt on them that pulled them around or something--I just couldn't stand to wear something shuffling through it like that.
Mr. JENNER. And the best of your recollection is that there were two breast pockets and at least one hip or side pocket.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I'm sure they had side pockets in front.
Mr. JENNER. Were those also patch?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe they were.
Mr. JENNER. And they had two hip rear patch pockets?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about the pockets that drew your attention, I'm talking about the front ones, now?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; not anything unusual about the front ones, but the hip pockets were gapped open and sagged down.
Mr. JENNER. Because these coveralls were so ill fitting?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Because they .were just too big--they could have had about 6 inches cut out of them.
Mr. JENNER. You barbers are generally pretty talkative. Did you seek to engage this man in conversation when he came into your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. You couldn't do it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, yes naturally--she don't need to write this down because this ain't going to help you a bit what I'm fixing to say, but the theory I work on as a barber--if a man gets in a chair, and I tell my other barbers that, if he gets in a chair and you strike up a conversation with him and he doesn't want to talk, don't talk to him--you say just as little as you can.
Mr. JENNER. That makes sense.
Mr. SHASTEEN. But if the guy wants to talk, then talk to him, if he if you can talk to him on his level or understand the thing he's talking about, but if a man gets in your chair and he doesn't want to talk, you can find it out without him turning around and saying, "Cut my hair, I didn't come in here to have a bull session." I mean, that's barber shop language, and I try to practice that, and nearly any time he come in I would mention the weather or a football game I mean, a barber has to get up and read the paper every morning and turn the radio on because everybody that comes in, if you're not up on the latest things that's happening, you're going to be sitting back there and you can't talk to them.
I usually run through the paper real hurriedly and see the headlines at least and I turn the radio on and you just couldn't strike up a conversation with him and I guess if I had ever mentioned politics to him, but we try to avoid that as much as possible in the shop. Had I ever talked politics with him, I might have gotten him on that but since he was the type guy he was, I never cared to talk politics with him.
Mr. JENNER. Well, in any event, he evidenced no interest in the bull session, as you described it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is that true of your helpers?
Mr. SHASTEEN. The front chair barber--he is the type barber that doesn't talk a lot anyway and he would talk about fishing or wrestling a little bit, but I don't think he ever said half a dozen words to him altogether. He told him how he wanted his hair cut.
You might attempt to ask me what kind of haircut he wore.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. SHASTEEN. You could just name it, because he didn't wear it long and he didn't wear it short. It was almost short enough to stand up but it was too long to stand up. He just wore a rough shod haircut because many I thought, "Boy, you sure ought to let this grow out up here where it will lay down and comb nice or either cut it off where it would stand up." But like I say, he wanted that little bit taken off. I tell you what he did do---He did try. to make the barber work all he could. He seemed like he wanted you to do all the work and naturally, that's another thing, I have a bad attitude towards some people. If a guy doesn't ask me to do much, I'll do a right smart, but if he thinks I owe him something, he won't get any extras.
Mr. JENNER. What color hair did this man have?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, he was dark headed--I wouldn't say he was real black, you know, what I mean, he wasn't jet black, but most people would call him black-headed.
Mr. JENNER. What color would you say your hair was?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Mine is dark brown, and what is not grey up it's covered up with oil.
Mr. JENNER. What color would you say mine is?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh now I think your hair is---it's a shade of black. It's not a dark black. I would say his hair was about the color of yours--it might have been a little bit darker. It might have been a little smuttier. You see, hair is a funny thing--a guy can be dark headed and if he puts oil on it, he looks real black and if he washes the oil out it's got a smutty look and he never did wear much oil because about the only time he ever come in the shop, never had his hair combed and he never had any oil on it or nothing and naturally after we cut his hair and put a little oil on it, it made it look darker.
Mr. JENNER. It darkened it up?
Mr. SHASTEEN. My hair is a whole lot darker with a little oil on it. Now this fellow here, referring to Mr. Davis----
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, you're talking about?
Mr. SHASTEEN. His hair, if you took the oil off of his hair and washed it out with some kind of heavy shampoo, it would almost be what you call a blonde or light red, is that right?
Mr. DAVIS. (No response.)
Mr. JENNER. How much hair did he have? A full head of hair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. To me, he didn't have a full head of hair. It was rather short and thin around here by the temples and the way his hair lies back, he would have been bald if he had been 40 years old.
Mr. JENNER. He had hair around the center, but he was losing his hair around the sides of the forehead?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; there was just a little crease that started back here. Naturally, a barber would notice that because the hair is much finer back here, you see, than it was down here [indicating]. In other words, I have as much hair as I ever had but it's just so fine you can't see it and that's what happens to a guy when he gets bald-headed. The hair is still there but it just doesn't grow. It's just little fuzz, and that hair of his, in another 5 or 6 years he would have been bald-headed. You can believe it.
I can tell you another thing--I don't know whether I told this fellow or not, may have. There are little things you can't remember, but he just had a hard look, just sitting in the chair. I'll tell you this much--if a guy comes in the barbershop and he's got a pretty good disposition and he smiles and speaks to people, every barber will want to cut his hair, but if a guy comes in there and he kind of looks grouchy, in barber language we call it soldiering on one another. We might work on a guy just a little bit longer if this guy's next so somebody else will have to get him. He's just the type guy you don't care about working on. I mean, he was just that type. I believe I can speak for all three of the barbers because I have heard their opinion about him. They didn't care if he never came back.
And, he never helped the shop. Well, you will say, how can a customer help the shop? When you ask a man to come back, when he starts out the door and if he says, "Thank you," or "I'll be back." or "I'll see you in 2 weeks,"--that's the language that is used around the barbershop, that helps the feeling at the barbershop, but if ask a guy going out the door to come back and he didn't even grunt, you know, that just lowers its morale in a barbershop right quick.
I know that customers don't think about that, but we as barbers--that's our business and we watch that and you would be surprised, if a guy comes in and you give a haircut and you thank him, when he pays you, and the barber ordinarily when he leaves for that door, when he starts out, he asks him to come back and if he says, "I'll see you in 2 weeks," or "Thank you for asking me to come back," it just builds up the morale in a shop, but he wasn't that type.
Mr. JENNER. I might have misled you a little bit ago--I mentioned your being interviewed on the 3d of December. The fact is that interview was on the 2d, was it not, the 2d of December?
Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is--why I say that, he came one day--I didn't put the dates down and I didn't try to remember them, but he came one day and I was real busy--the kids were trying to get a haircut for some program.
Mr. JENNER. The 2d of December was on a Monday?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe he came Monday and then he came back Tuesday. In other words, he came one day and he got there a little late and the kids were having their pictures made up at the school there nearby and they were sitting in there and he said, "Suppose I come back tomorrow?" He said, "I have some other places I need to go." And I told him it would be fine or I would take him in a few minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Mr. Odum interviewing at a later time, the 16th of December?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but he didn't make any notes to my knowledge, but I cut his hair.
Mr. JENNER. He made notes all right, I can tell you that.
Mr. SHASTEEN. He did--I josh and go on with Mr. Odum a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Likewise a Monday?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe it was. I cut Mr. Odum's hair about a week half ago. Do you know him? (Addressing Mr. Davis.)
Mr. DAVIS. No.
Mr. SHASTEEN. He's the type guy you like to have come in any time.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling him on that occasion that you had never been able to identify the 14-year old boy, that this boy had been in your shop on one occasion about 2 months prior to that day, that is prior to December 16, and that would make it around the 16th of October?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, now, we---in other words, there were no customers in there, but the barbers and I think he was in there, as I told you, I think we were nearly positive about that, but if I told you I knew he was, I couldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. It was on a Wednesday or Thursday and Oswald's hair was cut on that Occasion by your fellow barber, Burr Glover?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and Burt is the one that says that was on a Thursday.
Mr. JENNER. You see, this is what you told Mr. Odum and that Glover says on the next Monday or Tuesday he cut the hair of the 14-year old boy?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be sometime in October?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Evidently that's the time that I don't--that wasn't the time that he made the statement at all. If he got a haircut--but, if you know Burr like I know Burr, I don't know that Burt knows that that was the boy, but he still says it is. I think it was-- I wouldn't be sure about it.
Mr. JENNER. All I have in mind here is your report to Agent Odum. Then you told him at that occasion, that is, when the boy got his haircut on Monday or Tuesday, that Oswald was not in the shop but that somebody else had brought the boy to the shop.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; somebody let him out.
Mr. JENNER. Is that something Glover told you?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No. When he got his haircut, when he made the statement?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; somebody brought him and somebody picked him up, but they didn't pull right in front of the shop. They just let him out in front in the street.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice whether there was a woman or man or men that brought him to the shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I know what you're fixing to ask and I could kick my own self, but I didn't pay no attention to it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what type of automobile did you notice it at all?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I noticed the car. Now, I'll tell you the man's name that I know--I know it is in my estimation--it was in the 1958 bracket and as the old saying is, it didn't have the wings on it. This was the thing that I noticed.
Mr. JENNER. But it wasn't the station wagon you have described?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I think it was a 1958 Ford--them there old gun-colored, it was a dark color, but it wasn't black or nothing, and that's what let him out--the kid out in front.
Mr. JENNER. But this was the occasion the boy made the remark, "There wouldn't be no peace until all the people had the same amount of possessions and that most of our trouble now is caused because the poor people have so little and the rich so much?"
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And this boy indicated peace would come when all the people had the amount of--the same amount of wealth?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And had one leader--he didn't say "ruler," he said "leader." We talked about that and noticed it after he left.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement to Agent Odum?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. I have made it in my mind a dozen times since then--just thinking of a 14-year old boy having that kind of distilled stuff in his mind. It's not funny to me, it hurts me to see a kid with that kind of an attitude, because somebody is teaching him wrong and the thing that hurts me the most was the fact that I did have a chance to have took him and bought him a coke or took him and done something and talked to him and found out who he was and where I could have at least reasoned with him or turned him in where somebody--some of the authorities could have gotten ahold of him or anything, but it made me mad and I didn't do it. That's why we shouldn't let our tempers--you fellows are lawyers and you know that you can't let your temper get too far, but some of us people do let our tempers get away and that's one time I let mine get away. I would much rather have took him and whipped him with one of the belts or razor straps than took his money.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think of nothing else.
Do you have anything in mind to ask him, Mr. Davis?
Mr. DAVIS. No, is this person still coming, have you seen him any more when is the last time you saw him at the shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. This boy--I never saw that boy since that day. Of course, I don't remember exactly, the exact words, you know, I was kind of angry and aggravated and then you say things, but I let him know that that was no way for anybody to feel and I told him he was just off--way off base, and I said, "I don't know where you got your learning and your thinking," but I said, "Boy, I dis agree with you whole-heartedly." And I said--I have a bad habit of telling people they had better take inventory and see if they are right, and I told him, I said, "You had better take inventory and find out where you stand because you are just at the right age that you can get in a lot of trouble thinking like that."
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you what your age was?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No; 39.
Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man and have a family?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How old is Mr. Glover?
Mr. SHASTEEN. 32.
Mr. JENNER. And your third barber?
Mr. SHASTEEN. 39.
Mr. JENNER. That's all, and we appreciate your coming in.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I wish I could help you, but I know it doesn't help you a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you helped us by telling us everything you know.
Mr. DAVIS. We surely do appreciate your coming in.
Mr. JENNER. If you wish to read your deposition and make any corrections if you think any are warranted, you may do so and sign it, if you wish, or you can waive all that if you wish to?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I couldn't read what she has been writing there.
Mr. JENNER. I take it by that that you had just as soon waive your signature and reading it over?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And signing it?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Shasteen, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Mr. SHASTEEN. It's good to meet you fellows.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DAVIS. Thank you.