Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No.. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn statement from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular to you, Mr. Vaughn, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and more particularly about the entry or possible entry of Ruby into the basement through the Main Street ramp. Did you get a letter directed to you?
Mr. VAUGHN. To appear here?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That letter was a written request, written by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to you asking you to appear; is that correct?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days from this day?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. VAUGHN. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?
Mr. VAUGHN. Roy Eugene Vaughn.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. VAUGHN. I am 29.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mr. VAUGHN. 3231 Loganwood Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. VAUGHN. Police officer.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force?
Mr. VAUGHN. Almost 6 years.
Mr. HUBERT. What rank or rating do you hold now?
Mr. VAUGHN. Patrolman.
Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty at the police department on Sunday, November 24.
Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for duty?
Mr. VAUGHN. I'd say at approximately 9 a.m. we got a call to call the patrol office.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean your normal station was not at headquarters?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was your normal station?
Mr. VAUGHN. At this particular month, being the month we worked days, and I work relief--I don't work any certain district--and I work just more or less wherever I am needed.
Mr. HUBERT. So, they let you know at your home in some way?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir: I had already reported for work. I was working with squad 105 that particular morning, which is in the downtown area.
Mr. HUBERT. That's a patrol car?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--district 105, and approximately at 9 a.m. I got a call to call 511, which is patrol headquarters. Officer L. C. Taylor, who answered the phone, advised me to report to the city hall and park my car and report to 511.
Mr. HUBERT. What is 5117
Mr. VAUGHN. Which would be the patrol office that's the extension number which is commonly referred to as such.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a partner?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you report?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say approximately 9:15, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you got there what happened?
Mr. VAUGHN. I walked in the there was a little small assembly room off of the main office, and I walked in there there was several men, officers in there there was Officer Patterson, Officer Brock, and I think R. C. Nelson, I believe, came in a little later, and they had the coffee pot on and so we, I think most of us got a cup of coffee and was just sitting there talking.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mr. VAUGHN. Then Lieutenant Pierce walked in and told me and Officer Nelson and Officer Brock and Officer Patterson to report to Sergeant Dean in the basement, and he told me to tell Sergeant Dean when this was secured, when the basement was secured, to leave two men in the basement and secure the others.
Mr. HUBERT. To leave two men in the basement and to what?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said after this was all completed, this transferring was completed, to leave two men--that means to leave two men in the basement area and to secure the other two.
Mr. HUBERT. And to secure the other two what?
Mr. VAUGHN. Two men--you see, there were four of us that went down and he said to leave two in the basement and to secure the other two.
Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "secure the other two?"
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that means Just turn them loose and send them back to their regular duties.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, of the four men, you were to help in whatever Dean was doing, and then he told you, "Tell Dean--leave two men in the basement and turn the other two loose?"
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that's after everything was completed. That's his message that he more or less sent by me to Sergeant Dean.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men loose does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to report back somewhere else to work?
Mr. VAUGHN. They were to report back for somewhere else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part in the checkout of the basement?
Mr. VAUGHN. As far as actually checking the basement?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was assigned by Sergeant Putnam, who was with Sergeant Dean in the basement, when we got down there Sergeant Putnam assigned me to the Main Street ramp and I believe he assigned also Patrolman Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time did he assign you to the Main Street entrance?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say, Mr. Hubert, somewhere around 9:30--I couldn't be definite.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except police and the press, and only the press when they had an official press card, and if I didn't recognize any officer by sight to .require identification.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you understand by that that he meant that even if an officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let him in anyhow unless he had an identification?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said--the way I understand it, Mr. Hubert, if I recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own knowing them, then otherwise, where I think it was more applied--to where he said there would possibly be some Secret Service men and possibly would be some Federal agents I didn't know, and would I require identification from them.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you understand to mean by proper press accreditation or identification?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, there was one case where there are several different types of press cards. The only one that I would accept from them which would be, and I think in one or two cases, was the official card either issued by the States of Texas or by the City of Dallas, which contained the photograph of the reporter.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, even though they had something that looked like a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact turn away some people?
Mr. VAUGHN. I had one particular--yes, I turned away several people that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. Of course, this is---normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an entrance to the jail and there were a lot of People that come up there and said that they were going to the jail and I turned them away and told them to go some other way.
There was one reporter that come up and I believe he was with either Associated Press or United Press, I don't recall exactly, and he had on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some other reporter, and I told him I didn't know, and he said he wanted to go down 'and see him, and I told him I couldn't permit him to without identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--I don't know how to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary press pass and I told him I couldn't accept .that and he dug around in his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. I believe this particular pass was issued by the State of California or the City of Los Angeles, but it was similar to our official pass.
Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all prior to this occasion?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had met Mr. Ruby prior to this time, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times would you say?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say two or three times to be at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before November 24?
Mr. VAUGHN. When I was a rookie in 1959, I met Mr. Ruby while I was working a district out of Oak Lawn and I was more or less being trained at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored musicians that he had.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met him on that occasion?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; actually, I was Just there. I hadn't--I knew the man.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview last?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I'd say just a very few minutes--I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the second time you saw him?
Mr. VAUGHN. The second time was, I believe it was in 1961, and either the last of December or the middle of December.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that occasion.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic violation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him as the man you had seen before?
Mr. VAUGHN. Not until he told me who he was and I reprimanded him and let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview if we can call it that, with Ruby, last?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say at most probably 5 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the third time you saw him, and I think the third time would have been the last time, too?
Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall that's about the last time I have ever seen the fellow.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said there were three times?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, either two or three I couldn't be exact--I believe, like I said, I probably may have seen him more, but you know, just passing him when I was working on the district, but like I say, it would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--I can recall definitely two times.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his clubs?
Mr. VAUGHN. I have been to the Vegas Club, I would say, possibly twice.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel or the Sovereign?
Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Slipper or any of his other clubs?
Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had them.
Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that you went to the Vegas, did you see Ruby?
Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall---ever seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago were those occasions?
Mr. VAUGHN. This would also be in 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the last time you really saw him was in December 1961?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe it would be in December 1961--there were other occasions that I was in his club. I was on duty and actually just making a routine check or answering a call there. I had actually never been in his club except on business.
Mr. HUBERT. On those occasions that you did go on business, do you recall having seen him?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't, I don't recall seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. When you stated you were posted at the Main Street ramp, by that I take it you mean the exit of the Main Street ramp, that is to say, where it comes out?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, physically where did you maintain your post?
Mr. VAUGHN. I maintained it inside actually, I would say 2 or 3 feet inside actually--of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't on the sidewalk?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no; I was inside standing inside the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. The ramp is about how many feet wide?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate it--I would say it was 12 to 15 feet.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing more or less in the middle?
Mr. VAUGHN. In the middle.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was about from 9:30 on?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave that post?
Mr. VAUGHN. The only time when I ever moved out of my position there was when this car which was driven by Lieutenant Pierce exited by that ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you let them through, or you turned away other people?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What steps did you take to maintain the security of your post while you were talking to such people so that other people wouldn't sneak through?
Mr. VAUGHN. I was still standing in the middle of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. It would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on either side of you?
Mr. VAUGHN. That's right--without seeing them.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through, tell us what you know about that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I would say it was approximately a quarter or a little past--about 18 minutes past 11, somewhere around there I wouldn't be exact on the time.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, they established, I think, that the shooting occurred at 11:21 and I'm just judging by the minutes before.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you say is that you don't really have a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such and such a time?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes---at such and such a time.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way. How long before you heard the shot did that car driven by Rio Pierce pass by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say not over 3 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you recognize anybody in the car?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when the car came up?
Mr. VAUGHN. The first thing I noticed the car--still standing inside the ramp-and I heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holier, "Watch the car," and when I looked down you could just get a view of the front end of the car coming up the ramp. It had its red lights on, which were in the grill. As it come on up the ramp, I stepped to my right, and it come up the ramp
Mr. HUBERT. You stepped towards Pearl Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Pearl Street, and I stepped to my right in order to get out of the car's way, and I stepped out on the sidewalk somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, I believe it was right around the curb, and I glanced--it would be toward the eastbound traffic, which would be traffic towards Pearl Street to see that traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and I turned around and walked back.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go into the street at all?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not pass the curb?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe I did at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right?
Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, the way I was facing it would be to my left, which would be west.
Mr. HUBERT. It would be towards Harwood Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--- towards Harwood Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your back then toward the ramp entrance?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, I was standing to the right of the ramp where I still had a view of the ramp itself, the entrance to the ramp. My back would have been toward Pearl Street--it would be towards the east.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right, that is, toward Pearl Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall. All I done on that, Mr. Hubert, like I say, I walked out--I glanced west, which would be towards the eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars parked along here on Main Street, I glanced to the west and seen there was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the west, and I Just motioned them on.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go out in the middle of the street to halt traffic?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people standing around that entrance?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I would say at most, I believe, at most it would be a haft dozen, I think, who were standing there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing in front or to the side?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, there was one particular person that I recall that was standing on my right, which would be toward Pearl Street--would be N. J. Daniels.
Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He is a former policeman?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized him as such?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was in civilian clothes?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You know that little concrete or stone projection out into the side. walk?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that they have two 'of those, one on each side of the ramp and they extend about 5 or 6 feet into the sidewalk from the side of the building toward the curb---is it correct to say that they are about 12 inches high?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they are a little higher--I believe they would be about 18 inches high.
Mr. HUBERT. On what side of the. ramp was Daniels?
Mr. VAUGHN. He would be on the east side, toward Pearl Street there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the Pierce car passed by, what did you do?
Mr. VAUGHN. I walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which was 2 or 3 feet inside.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until after the shot was fired?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone go by you after you returned to your post, following the exit of the Rio Pierce car?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you qualify that by saying, "Not that you recall"--I had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been impossible for anybody to do so.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, as far as--actually, when I got inside the ramp, I don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that I stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. When I say I recall, well, I'll put it definite I know there wasn't--I'll put it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the way I had understood your previous testimony, because I had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials of others.
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was impossible---they would have had to go either to the left or fight of you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car was coming out. what steps or action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that car was passing through?
Mr. VAUGHN. The only steps, like I said, Mr. Hubert, on that--is when I stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--I made sure that my view of the entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that I could still see the entrance to the right.
Mr. HUBERT. You use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to infer by that it could have been partially blocked?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; the only thing--when I stepped out, as the car came out, I still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that part of your view was blocked by the automobile itself?
Mr. VAUGHN. It possibly--for an instant while the car was coming out--actually out of the entrance but after it cleared the ramp---no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. After it cleared the entrance. you returned your view to your post, even though you weren't at it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And nobody entered it at that time?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete or marble what do you call it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Slab there.
Mr. HUBERT. Standing by that slab there where. Daniels was?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else with Daniels?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite some time and during the morning there were several people that would walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in the basement of the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed in janitorial uniforms pass by?
Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and look in the ramp and they walked on.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way were they coming from?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they were coming from the east.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what direction?
Mr. VAUGHN. From Pearl--towards Harwood.
Mr. HUBERT. They just passed by?
Mr. VAUGHN. They would have hesitated for just a minute.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate just an estimate I would say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't believe it would.
Mr. HUBERT. And why do you say that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of time like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he got in?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I realize that.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion about that statement?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did.
Mr. HUBERT. You think he got in some other way?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't believe that he came in the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while you were there?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, What do you mean by that?
Mr. HUBERT. That's the reasonable doubt test, you see.
Mr. VAUGHN. You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. But I was testing the strength of your view.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I don't quite understand or follow you?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement through the Main Street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way?
Mr. VAUGHN. So far as the knowledge I have of it--no, sir---I do not. I think if the question is that you think I would convict him on the doubt---of the knowledge that I have that he did not enter that ramp--yes, sir, I would.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt, as far as you are concerned?
Mr. VAUGHN. As far as I am concerned--yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man who turned out to be a police mechanic?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?
Mr. VAUGHN. Tom Chabot [spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t--I don't think I can spell it actually--anyway, Chabot.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he enter the basement?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad car and started into the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. How much earlier was it, and earlier than what?
Mr. VAUGHN. It was, I would say--it was approximately--just an estimate, it would be somewhere around 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. In. other words, this man Chabot went into the basement about an hour and 20 minutes before the shooting?
Mr. VAUGHN. Somewhere around there like I said--it would strictly be an estimate on the time.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened--he tried or he went through?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he pulled up in a city squad car and I told him I couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the car out and he parked it on Main Street, which would be actually east toward Pearl Street from--it would be on my right from the entrance or exit there it would be on the right. He parked there and he got out and he come back and he come back up where I was standing inside the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of course, I had known Chabot ever since I had been there. He's married to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said, "I've got to check the parking situation in the basement."
He said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about 5:30--and so I told him to go ahead, due to the fact that I knew it was Sunday--I seen him driving a squad car--I thought possibly maybe they had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so I told him to go ahead, and I seen him walk down in there I was standing, and he was standing in my view--I could see him, and he walked down there and I got the view when he was talking to Sergeant Dean, and in 2 or 3 minutes he had come back up. He stopped there and chatted with me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot? "
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, after I had stepped back in there when Lieutenant Pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, I would say, not over 3 minutes I heard somebody holier, "Here he comes," and so--I turned around and glanced--I couldn't see anything--all I could see was an outline of a few figures at the bottom.
Mr. HUBERT. You turned then so that your back was to Main Street and you were looking around?
Mr. VAUGHN. I was standing to a side view--I turned like this and looked right Just like this a little way.
Mr. HUBERT. You looked over your shoulder?
Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that I heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud enough to actually be a shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, at that time there was just mass confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody say, "Here he comes," and turned and looked back.
Mr. VAUGHN. No; sir--as far as any movement on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically, did you see any move forward?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you looking when you heard the shot?
Mr. VAUGHN. When I heard the shot I was looking back outside the entrance.
Mr. HUBERT. Onto Main Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight then--you were standing there facing Main Street?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or a few feet inside the ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," you glanced over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then turned back?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you heard the shots?
Mr. VAUGHN. Then I heard the shots.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you turned to look down the basement after you heard "Here he comes," you did not see Jack Ruby down there?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no--like I said--the only view I had was---there were so many people in there where it was just the very people on the edge--their backs were to me.
Mr. HUBERT. After you heard the shot, what did you do?
Mr. VAUGHN. There was Just mass confusion broke loose in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your post?
Mr. VAUGHN. I stepped back inside the people outside there was quite a crowd beginning to collect outside I stayed back inside and I drawed my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried to come out, because actually I didn't know what had happened, and Just immediately after that I seen some of them scuffling down there and I seen a hand-- several people scuffling--and I seen part of a hand sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all I could see was Just this part of the hand, and immediately after that there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the ramp. Of course, he was in civilian clothes, I couldn't tell who he was, and just as he started, I guess he had taken very few steps from the crowd, .there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like and almost knocked him down. Still, they were far enough from me that I couldn't actually tell who it was. And, so, in a minute this reserve let him pass and he come on up the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the reserve was?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't. There were so many of those reserves you know who some of them are and some of them you don't.
Mr. HUBERT. The reserves let him go and he came up the ramp?
Mr. VAUGHN. It was Detective E. O. Burgess.
Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you let him out?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, he. didn't go out. He Just come up and helped me at top of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions or orders?
Mr. VAUGHN. No. I asked him, I said, "What happened?" And he said, "He's been shot.". I said, "Who shot him?" And he said--well, he understood it was a reporter and that was all that was said then, .and then immediately after that Captain Talbert, Capt. C. E. Talbert come up the ramp and he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, I believe, it was Sergeant Everett--I'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to write anybody's name on that did try to leave.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody try to leave?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting oc-curred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up here with WFAA--Dallas Morning News by the name of Millican. I asked him his name. He wrote his name down and I asked him what he had seen. He said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually after the shooting happened.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he identify himself?
Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, with a press card, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not real positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an incident in which a TV man by the name of Jim Turner was involved? He had got out and came back in.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, there was two men that went out during the time before the shooting actually happened?
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after the shooting. Let me see if I can refresh your memory in this way--a WBAP-TV man went out to get some equipment, apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man Turner to identify him to you; do you recall that incident?
Mr. VAUGHN. I recall this---there was, like I said earlier, there was two men that went out and got some camera equipment.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said "earlier" you mean before the shot?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly after I was stationed on the ramp, I would say right around 10 o'clock. They went out and got some camera equipment. I watched them as they went across the street, the car was parked on Main Street, and then the same two men--I made definitely sure of that, and when they come back in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--I don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the .ramp and looked out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of Main Street and he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the county, and after the shooting, if I am not mistaken, the same man came back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in the ramp-- I would not let him in. I told him definitely that nobody could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and I said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you back in," but he had gone back in carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down the ramp, and the next thing I knew he come back from the outside, immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and I told him---no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags and possibly some photographic equipment-- he looked something like John Carradine, do you remember that actor, John Carradine, with a wrinkled face?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a TV man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him and the TV man said, "No, I can't identify you."
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that incident?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that there was one person who came a little later after the shooting who wanted to see Ruby?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--this was after--oh, I would say it was approximately an hour or almost an hour after the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that man was?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know his name.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he look like?
Mr. VAUGHN. He was a great big fellow. Now, I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you he wanted to see Ruby?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he walked up and I overheard the conversation, if I recall, with one of the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and I overheard the conversation--he said he was an employee of Jack Ruby's. When I heard that.--we was all standing around there I went and asked him and he asked me if lieutenant, let me see, I don't remember the lieutenant's name he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and I told him I didn't know. He said, "Well, I am an employee of Jack Ruby's," and he said, "I would like to talk to lieutenant--" I believe he said Cunningham--I'm not real sure I'm not positive now. Anyway, I asked him then what the deal was and he said, "He just needed to talk to him," and I felt possibly--by that time I had found out actually that Jack Ruby had shot him, and I felt possibly maybe someone wanted to talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and I went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and I called the homicide bureau and told Detective Boyd--I don't recall if he is the one that answered the phone, but I told whoever it was what the circumstances was, and Detective Boyd come down to the basement and he started searching this man and I helped him search him for any kind of a concealed weapon he might have and I turned him over to him and I left. I don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of Jack's.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a heavy man, you say?
Mr. VAUGHN. He was quite a big man.
Mr. HUBERT. How old would he be?
Mr. VAUGHN. I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his complexion?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he was fair.
Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, he was about 6 foot 3 or 4---he was a tall man, but I believe he was heavier.
Mr. HUBERT. Heavier than who?
Mr. VAUGHN. Heavier than me.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you say he weighed?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say he weighed around 250.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he bald or balding?
Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall he had quite a bit of hair.
Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe the .best I remember I believe it was black.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a limp or not?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't notice.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby was supposed to have passed by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. I went immediately, after I took this man to the basement, I seen another officer that was right there in the basement and I asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so I run on up to 511, which is the patrol office, and Lieutenant Pierce was up there and I asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go back to the squad, and that was about, I would say, somewhere around 1 o'clock, and I went on back out and I answered a call, I believe I answered a couple of calls, and I answered one out in East Dallas and while I was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to the people, they called--I heard a call for me to Call 401, at Parkland Hospital, which is the officer's room out there at Parkland, and so I went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and I got back to the car and went to the phone and I called. I called Parkland Hospital and talked to Captain Talbert, and Captain Talbert asked me if I had seen Jack Ruby that day and I said, "No." He asked me if I knew him and I said, "Well, I know him to the point that probably if I had met the man on the street in a crowd I wouldn't have recognized him, but to the point that if I had some occasion to talk to him, I believe I would," and he asked me if I had seen him and so I told him "No," and I began to wondering about it and I went on and checked out of service and went to the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Captain Talbert did not tell you that there was some idea that Ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in that way?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he may have possibly stated something like that--I don't recall, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and worrying about it.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, actually when he asked me if I had seen Ruby that morning--I don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he is supposed to have come in or anything else. Well, I went on, like I said, and checked out and I went to 511 where I think I seen Lieutenant Pierce and he told me that that's how Ruby said he had come into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say it was somewhere around 2 or 2:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who Ruby had told that to?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know now who he told it to?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I understood, of course I don't know definitely--I understood he told Mr. Sorrels and Detective McMillon and several more--I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Pat Dean about it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Dean asked me one time if I knew what Ruby had said, I recall, and this was sometime later, and I said I knew what he had said--that that's how he had gotten in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean tell you that Ruby had told him that?
Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did, Mr. Hubert, I can't recall exactly what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the event did you have this conversation with Dean?
Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that afternoon, or maybe the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he approach you about it or did you approach him?
Mr. VAUGHN. I actually don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your superior officers question you about whether Jack could have gotten by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. That was on Sunday it happened, and I worked Monday, and I think it was--I talked to Lieutenant Pierce some, I believe, and Tuesday I was off and so Tuesday morning around 9 o'clock they called me at home and told me to come in and write a report and so I got up and went down there and wrote a report Tuesday, and I was off Wednesday. So Wednesday night I was supposed to be off Thursday at that particular time I had three days off that week, and I think it was a holiday fell in there somewhere--Thanksgiving is what it was--and Wednesday night they called me at home, Lieutenant Pierce called me. I don't recall that it was--whether it was 7 or 8 or 9 o'clock, and told me to come in and go to work Thursday morning, that Chief Fisher wanted to talk to me, and I came in and went ahead and went to work and I worked until, I believe, 8:30 or 9 and I got a call to report to 511 on a mark-out.
Mr. HUBERT. What is a mark-out?
Mr. VAUGHN. That means you are out of Service. The dispatcher will show you being somewhere else, and so when I went up there, Chief Fisher, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Pierce, I believe, was all sitting in this little assembly room and they were talking, and I didn't say anything else I didn't say anything to them, and so within a few minutes Chief Fisher asked me as recall, now maybe I'm a. little bit wrong, as far as he asked me. but somebody asked me if I was ready to go up to his office and I said. "Yes," and we went on up to Chief Fisher's office which is up on the third floor and I was accompanied by Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert, so Chief Fisher questioned me about it quite extensively, and I told him the exact story that I had in my report and I have told you, and then he asked me he said he didn't doubt my integrity, but would I take a lie detector test and I told him--yes, I would take a lie detector test and I went in and Detective Bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so I went in and took the test.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time that Daniels had said that he had seen somebody go by you?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--I had contacted Daniels, of course I didn't actually clear my conversation when I talked to him about it---I had contacted Daniels---I remember seeing him there, after personally knowing Daniels--I knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and so
Mr. HUBERT. When did you contact Daniels?
Mr. VAUGHN. It was on Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did so, I suppose, because you knew of the. possibility that was being talked about that Ruby had passed by you and you thought that he was there and he might know?
Mr. VAUGHN. I knew he was there I remember seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I called him at home he has a business down in South Dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the President's funeral, and I called him at home and I believe his wife answered the phone, and I asked her if I could speak to him, and so he come to the phone and I told him who I was and I said, "I remember seeing you down there yesterday, and I Just want to ask you something." I said, "Do you recall this car--this Lieutenant Pierce's car coming out of the basement?" And he said, "Yes, sure." And, I says, "Well, did you see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" He said, "No, definitely not; there was nobody." And, I told him, I said, "That's the way Ruby said he got in," and I thanked him and left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out to--after the Pierce car had passed through?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't recall asking him that.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody?
Mr. VAUGHN. He said there definitely--he said there was definitely nobody went down that ramp but that car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go through.
Mr. HUBERT. And was the conversation such that when he told you that, you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever?
Mr. VAUGHN. The only part I was asking him about was the point when that car come out, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was limited to whether anybody came through while the Pierce car was going through?
Mr. VAUGHN. That was the only part that my intention was .to ask him about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the rest of the time I was in the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by Fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of disciplinary action taken against you by the police department?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; I had my efficiency cut.
Mr. HUBERT. That's one thing I am interested in--tell us about that.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I got cut four points.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a drastic cut?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, for me it was. Of course,, in some cases it isn't. I mean, it's Just all according to
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, we don't know what the efficiency cut of four points means in terms of severity, and that's what we would like to know.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally for the last 3 or 4 years I have always carried a 90 efficiency, which is a fairly high efficiency, and I got cut four points on one certain thing, which I'm not familiar enough on how they grade on that--to actually explain it to you, but I went up to the civil service board when I got my efficiency and checked to see who, of course, they keep a record of anybody that changes your efficiency. My efficiency was changed by Chief Fisher. It was cut from a 90 to an 86 and on one particular phase of how they grade on dependability.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ascertain that that efficiency cut was done because the Ruby incident?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I didn't think--I thought possibly it was over the Ruby incident and I went and talked to one of my supervisors and I didn't feel that I should have had a cut on my efficiency under the circumstances but the point to me--there has--they have never actually proved that Jack came in that way.
Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to this officer, your superior officer about the fact that you didn't think you should be cut, what did he say?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said he didn't know what I was cut for.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that, by the way, what is his name?
Mr. VAUGHN. I believe that was Sergeant Jennings, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. You know you talked to Fisher about
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was going to see Chief Fisher, as a matter of fact I got the lieutenant to talk to Chief Fisher and he told Chief Fisher that I did want to see him, and at that time Chief Fisher was involved in some other kind of business he had--I don't know exactly what it was, but he was busy. Then Lieutenant Pierce told me that I shouldn't go see Fisher at this time. He said, "If you will wait, I will talk to Fisher."
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, this efficiency cut, is that on the basis of a year or a month or what?
Mr. VAUGHN. Six months.
Mr. HUBERT. And this was made about January 1, I guess?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I think the efficiency ends in the month of January.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Rio Pierce ever report back to you as to whether he had spoken to Fisher or not?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I talked to Lieutenant Pierce, I believe it was a couple of weeks ago, and he said it was the first opportunity he had had a chance to talk to Chief Fisher, and my understanding I got from him was that Chief Fisher said it was for letting Tom Chabot in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. In other-words, you got the impression from Pierce, that the efficiency cut was not related to the Ruby incident, but rather to the Chabot incident?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; to Chabot.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we need a bit more information as to the severity of this cut. Could you give us examples of what point cut they give for what?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, you might get I or 2 points--I've seen them get cut as high as 13 points.
Mr. HUBERT. For what?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, just for different things.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what would be---what would a four cut be the result of?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally a 4 point cut wouldn't be too severe, because actually--well, I had a 90. I got cut 4 points---I got an 86, which is still a fairly good efficiency, but to me, like I said, under the circumstances and the things I felt it was severe because I didn't quite understand it--that was the point on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, were you in the police building on the 23d---the day before?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I was there in and out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby then?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the police building on the 22d of November?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby around there then?
Mr. VAUGHN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to that assembly when Oswald was brought down to see the press?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir;. I don't know what time that was, but at that particular time we were working days and we got off at 3 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you three statements which have been marked for identification as follows: a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry in two pages and I have marked it for identification, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5334, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name on it and since it has a second page, I have put my initials at the right-hand bottom corner of the second page, and the second document, which is an interview of you by FBI Agents Lester and Larson, dated December 1, 1963, and for purposes of identification, I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5335, Deposition of Roy Vaughn." I have signed my name on that and I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second, third, the fourth and the fifth pages of that document, and then there is another document, a report of an investigation of you by Agents Hughes and Dallman, dated December 19, 1963, and I have marked that for identification on the first page as follows, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5336, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name below that and I have marked the second, third and fourth pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I think you have had an opportunity to read these three exhibits?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any corrections, changes, or modifications that you wish to make in the document, Exhibit 5334, the letter to Chief Curry?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any modifications that you wish to make in the document that has been identified as Exhibit 5335, the FBI interview on December 1, 1963?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you take the document and tell me what changes or what errors there are or modifications you wish to make?
Mr. VAUGHN. This part.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are pointing to the second page, the second paragraph which is numbered with a (1)--what do you have to say about that?
Mr. VAUGHN. The time was probably 10:15 and they've got 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only thing you find in that?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What other things?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, in No. 6.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the paragraph that is numbered with (6) on page two?
Mr. VAUGHN. It says, "Thomas Carbet, known to Vaughn to be a city employed mechanic, was on business of the Dallas Police Department in a squad car. In connection with Carbet, Vaughn invited him down".
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they have Carbet, is that wrong?
Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, it's Chabot, but I think that's what I told him, but that's what I meant.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Chabot, when you actually told him Carbet. The man who is referred to in this paragraph you are talking about, Paragraph 6 on page two, was really Chabot, is that right?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir [spelling]; C-h-a-b-o-t, and that's what I have what he advised me that he had been sent down for, checking the parking situation.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't quite get what you said is wrong with that paragraph.
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that would be all right as far as the way it is written--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any comment about it?
Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, the comment was, as I recall, I did tell the two FBI agents that were there that Chabot advised me that he had to check the parking situation in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is omitted from that paragraph?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that is omitted from that paragraph.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to page three and it is the last long paragraph on that page.
Mr. VAUGHN. And it says that, "Approximately 11 a.m. a large crowd"--I don't know how they would specify a large crowd--I said I suppose it was probably half a dozen people standing outside the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you wish to correct that?
Mr. VAUGHN. I want to change the large---from large to that.
Mr. HUBERT. You wish to change "large crowd at 11 a.m." to "about half a dozen people"?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other corrections or modifications on that document?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You have read it through and you believe it correctly represents the content and substance of the interview?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now; I ask you whether you have any comments or changes or corrections with reference to the FBI report which has been identified as Exhibit 5336?
Mr. VAUGHN. No; that's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That's correct altogether?
Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, Would you be willing to state that if a person were to read the three reports that we have identified as Exhibits 5334, 5335, and 5336, and if he were to read your deposition here, that he would have the truth so far as you know?
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.
Mr. VAUGHN. All right. Thank you.