The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Flannery, you are here representing Mr. Weissman?
Mr. FLANNERY. Yes; Your Honor.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, would you mind making a brief statement of the testimony we expect to develop here?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. Bernard William Weissman, who is the witness today, played some Part in the preparation of and the publication of the advertisement in the Dallas Morning News on the 22d of November 1963, and we will seek to develop the facts with respect to that. It has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1031, entitled "Welcome, Mr. Kennedy."
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1031 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Weissman's deposition was taken in part. He was not then represented by counsel, and he had some qualms about it and raised the issue; and as soon as it was raised we suspended the deposition. He appears this morning with Mr. Flannery as his counsel.
Mr. Flannery, would you be good enough to state your full name?
Mr. FLANNERY. Thomas A. Flannery.
The CHAIRMAN. And you are a practitioner in Washington?
Mr. FLANNERY. Yes; Your Honor, I am a partner in the firm of Hamilton and Hamilton.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Weissman; will you raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated? Mr. Jenner will question.
Mr. JENNER. Your full name is Bernard William Weissman?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you now reside in New York City, do you not?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Mount Vernon, N.Y.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give your address?
Mr. WEISSMAN. 439 South Columbus Avenue, Mount Vernon, N.Y.
Mr. JENNER. You were born November 1, 1937?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are almost 27 years old?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like some vital statistics, if I may, Mr. Weissman. Are you presently employed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And where are you employed presently?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Carpet Corp. of America, 655 Clinton Avenue, Newark, N.J.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Is that connected in any fashion with the Carpet Co. by which you were employed in Dallas, Tex., last fall?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. You are a native born American?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your folks are as well?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?
Mr. JENNER. Your folks are as well, mother and father?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have two brothers?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And they likewise are native born Americans?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your marital status at the present time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Separated.
Mr. JENNER. You were married or are married to Jane Byrnes Weissman?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She is a native born American, also?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have been separated since when?
Mr. WEISSMAN. May 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. So you became separated from her before you went to Dallas in the fall of 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I was in the service at the time.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, are you acquainted with a gentleman by the name of Larrie Schmidt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first meet him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Munich, Germany, about July or August of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. His middle name is Henry. Are you aware of that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I am not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Where does he reside?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, he was in Dallas. I understand he has dropped from sight. I don't know where he is now.
Mr. JENNER. Was he residing in Dallas in the fall of 1963 when you were there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you arrive in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Dallas, on the 4th of November 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And was Mr. Schmidt aware that you were about to come to Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your coming to Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I will be as brief as possible. It was simply to follow through on plans that we had made in Germany, in order to develop a conservative organization in Dallas, under our leadership.
Mr. JENNER. Did that conservative organization, or your purpose in going to Dallas, as well, have any business context in addition to politics?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I would say 50 percent of the purpose was business and the other 50 percent politics. We figured that only rich men can indulge full time in politics, so first we had to make some money before we could devote ourselves to the political end completely.
Mr. JENNER. In short compass; would you tell the Commission your background up to the time that you entered military service, and give us the date of the entry of military service?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Do you mean as far as my schooling and where I lived before then? Before I went into the service?
Mr. JENNER. Let's take it from high school.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I graduated from Edison Technical High School in Mount Vernon in June of 1956, went to work for the Nuclear Development Corp. as an experimental machinist in July of that year and left them in August of 1957. I then went on the road with my brother, Joe, and his wife, working as demonstrators or pitchmen, you might say, in department stores, selling some patent medicines and the like. Did this for about---oh, that was from the 18th of November 1957 up until about April or May of 1958.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother Joe is a little bit older than you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He is 20 months older, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his given name is Joe, and not Joseph?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Joseph. Then--let's see--I went to work for the American Schools of Music, which my brother rounded in Jersey.
Mr. JENNER. Which brother?
Mr. WEISSMAN. My brother Joe in New Jersey. And I stayed with him as his sales manager for a little over a year.
Then I went to work for Encyclopedia Americana, Harvard Classics Division, as a district sales manager. I was with them about a year--until 19---I believe it was September of 1960.
I was starving, so I went to work for Underwood Olivetti, in Newark, N.J., and I sold typewriters and calculators up until May of 1961, at which time I quit, tried to go into business for myself in costume jewelry, formed a corporation known as Jane Williams Co., Inc., and in August of 1961, I was drafted into the Army. That was on August 5, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. You were honorably discharged from the Army in August 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. August 5; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What has been your father's occupation?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, for about 20 years he was plant superintendent for University Loudspeakers in White Plains, N.Y. They moved to some place out west. He quit and went back to work with Local 3 in New York City, IBW.
Mr. JENNER. Your father's name is Harry?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Harry Weissman; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you reside with him now at 439 South Columbus Avenue in Mount Vernon?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were discharged from the Army honorably?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were married when, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. November 7, 1958.
Mr. JENNER. A New York girl?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yonkers, N.Y.
Mr. JENNER. And you have some children?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. You separated, as you have indicated. Now, would you start from the Army?
Before I get to that, you met Larrie Schmidt in the Army?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What other buddies did you have in the Army with whom you again renewed your acquaintance when you were discharged from the Army and went to Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Only one beside Larrie. That was Bill Burley. William Burley.
Mr. JENNER. What contact did you have with Mr. Larrie Schmidt and Mr. Burley after you left the Army, which eventually brought you to Dallas? State it in your own words and chronologically, please.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I got out of service on the 5th, and I spent the month of August looking for a job. During this time, I had been in contact with Larrie. I had telephoned him once during August. Things were pretty bad. I didn't have any money. As far as I could ascertain he was broke himself. There wasn't any percentage in going to Dallas and not accomplishing anything. As a matter of fact, I had lost a good deal of confidence in Larrie in the year that he left Munich and was in Dallas, and the letters I got from him--he seemed to have deviated from our original plan. I wasn't too hot about going. He didn't seem to be accomplishing anything, except where it benefitted him.
Mr. JENNER. You say he deviated from the original plan. What was the original plan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, the original plan was to stay away from various organizations and societies that were, let's call them, radical, and had a reputation as being such.
Mr. JENNER. When you say radical, what do you mean?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I mean radical right. And I considered myself more of an idealist than a politician. Larrie was more of a politician than an idealist. He went with the wind--which is good for him, I guess, and bad for me.
In any case Larrie wrote me easily a dozen letters imploring me to come down, telling me in one that he doesn't need me down there, but he would love to have my help because he can't accomplish anything without me, and in the next one saying, "Forget it, I don't need you," and so forth. As the letters came, they went with the wind, depending on what he was doing personally. And along about the end of October, I had been in contact with Bill--he was in Baltimore, Md., selling hearing aids. He wasn't getting anywhere. He was making a living.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this point each of you was barely making a living?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no capital?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. No funds of your own?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None at all. And I got in touch with Bill. Actually, I forgot how it was. He wrote me a letter and I wrote him a letter. In any case, it came about that I invited Bill up to Mount Vernon, because he figured if there was any money to be made it would be made in New York, because this is a salesman's paradise. I invited Bill to Mount Vernon. He came up about the last week of August.
I am sorry--October of 1963. And we set up about looking for work and trying to find him work, that is--I was working for the Encyclopedia Britannica, Great Books Division, as a district manager in Westchester County. So I more or less supported Bill the best I could. I fed him and gave him a room to sleep in and so forth.
In the meantime, Larrie had up to a point--hadn't accomplished anything in the way that we could use gainfully or to our purposes in Dallas. So there was really no reason to go down there up until about, I guess, the 26th or 28th of October.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Why were you thinking of Dallas at this time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I kept getting these letters from Larrie. I tried to forget about it, and he constantly reminded me. Once or twice a week I would get a letter. And it was a question--I was almost obligated to go, because I had promised I would be there. And still having somewhat of a close relationship with Larrie, through my promises, I sort of felt morally obligated to go down there.
And, at the same time, it was new, different, exciting, it had a lot of promise for the future if it worked out.
So Adlai Stevenson was down there in the latter part of October.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. And I didn't pay too much attention to this--until the evening of Stevenson's speech at the Dallas Auditorium. And I got a long distance telephone call from Larrie, and he explained what had happened--that Stevenson had been struck by several individuals down there.
Mr. JENNER. Please call on your best recollection and tell us what he said to you. You recall that he made that telephone call?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are clear it was Larrie Schmidt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He said that big things are happening, and he went--this is before it hit the papers. He told me what had happened with Adlai Stevenson.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Something like, "I think we are" he always speaks I this and I that. "I have made it, I have done it for us," something to this effect. In other words, this is not exactly his words. I don't recall his exact words. But this is essentially it. And that----
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to him, "What do you mean you have made it for us?"
Mr. WEISSMAN. When he said, "I have made it for us," meaning Larrie Schmidt---meaning me and Bill and whoever else was going to come down here----
Mr. JENNER. That was----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Bill Burley.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say when he made that remark?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I said "Great."
Mr. JENNER. What did it mean to you, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. What did it mean to me?
Mr. JENNER. It is a generalization.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is it. In other words, I didn't really know what to think. I had to go along with him, because I didn't know anything about it, aside from what he told me.
And he said, "If we are going to take advantage of the situation, or if you are," meaning me, "you better hurry down here and take advantage of the publicity, and at least become known among these various rightwingers, because this is the chance we have been looking for to infiltrate some of these organizations and become known," in other words, go along with the philosophy we had developed in Munich.
Mr. JENNER. Could I go back a little bit, please. You received a telephone call from Mr. Schmidt.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment, you knew nothing about the Adlai Stevenson incident, is that correct?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I had received a letter from him several weeks before saying that--if you will wait just a minute, I think I might have the letter with me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. While you are looking, what was your rank when you were discharged?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Pfc.
Mr. JENNER. Did you reach any higher rank when you were in the service?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; this is a letter I received on October 1, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. For purposes of identification, we will mark that as Commission Exhibit No. 1033.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1033 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chief Justice?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; go right ahead.
Mr. JENNER. That is marked only for identification for the moment.
Mr. FLANNERY. The record will reflect it is a three-page letter.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Marked Commission Exhibit No. 1033, is that not correct?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; that is correct. Now, in Exhibit No. 1033, the letter I received from Larrie on October 1--that was typed on October 1, 1963, and mailed on 7 October 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You are looking at the envelope in which the letter was enclosed when you received it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is correct. And he states in the last paragraph of Ms letter in a postscript, "My brother has begun working as an aide to General Walker. He is being paid, full time, et cetera. Watch your newspaper for news of huge demonstrations here in Dallas on October 3 and 4 in connection with U.N.-day and Adlai Stevenson speech here. Plans already made, strategy being carried out."
This was the only advance notice I had of this. And I didn't give it too much thought, because he had said many things like it before, just to build something up, and nothing ever came of it.
Mr. JENNER. Is that document signed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a typed, signature?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with Mr. Schmidt respecting the contents of that letter at any time subsequent to your receiving it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk with him about having received that particular letter, that he acknowledged having sent to you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; as a matter of fact, I was pretty worried about his brother becoming involved with General Walker, and I thought it might give us a black eye.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do--call Mr. Schmidt or talk with him on that subject?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall if I spoke with him, or if I wrote it to him in a letter. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you had occasion to confirm the fact that the letter now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1033 was written by Mr. Schmidt and mailed to you in an envelope, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 1033-A?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1033-A for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear my question?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Repeat it, please.

(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So that when you had your telephone conversation which you were in the course of relating, with Mr. Schmidt, you were aware when he made the exclamation which you have described, of that to which he was then referring--that is, the Stevenson incident?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything else in Mr. Schmidt's letter that disturbed you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I received so many. Would it be permissible to excuse me. Mr. Jenner, would it be permissible to read this letter into the record?
Mr. JENNER. My trouble is, Mr. Weissman, and Mr. Flannery--I haven't seen the letter.
Mr. Chief Justice----
The CHAIRMAN. I suppose Mr. Jenner could see the letter for a moment, couldn't he?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Flannery, would you be good enough to pass it up?

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. You see, up to the point of that letter--excuse me.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, it is quite apparent to me, from glancing through the letter, that this is a letter that we--in connection with Mr. Weissman's testimony, that we would like to offer in evidence in due course.
And, with that in mind, Mr. Weissman, it will not be necessary for you to read paragraphs from the letter, unless in the course of your testimony you feel it will round out your testimony and serve to refresh your recollection as to events you might wish to relate.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I would like to take a look at it now.

(At this point, Representative Ford reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Ready?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you be good enough to read, let us say, the last question and answer of the witness?

(The question and answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. The point I was making, Mr. Weissman, was that when you received the telephone call about which you were testifying, in which Mr. Schmidt exclaimed, "I have made it for us," or words to that effect, you were then aware of that to which he was referring, at least in general?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So that was the reason why you didn't ask him to elaborate upon what he meant by, "I have made it for us"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the fact that he, as you understood it, am I correct in saying, had had something to do with the organization of the picketing or other demonstrations at the time that Mr. Stevenson made his visit to Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, at the time I was almost--Larrie led me to believe that he had organized the whole thing. And it transpired when I got to Dallas that I found that he had led a group of 11 University of Dallas students in quiet picketing near the entrance to the auditorium, and didn't engage in any physical violence of any sort.
Mr. JENNER. But up to the time that you arrived in Dallas, you were under the impression that he had had a more extensive part?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is what he led me to believe. In other words, he was trying to--he wanted to get me to Dallas in the worst way. And he wanted it to look like he was on the hot seat and he would be there unless I came down to help him. In other words, he is throwing my obligation at me. And trying to convince me in various ways, as I mentioned, to come down there, so we can get moving on what we had planned in Munich.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a letter from him dated October 29, 1963, a copy of which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1032, and I tender to you. You may have the original among your papers.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1032 for identification.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did receive this letter, Exhibit No. 1032, from Larrie, about the 29th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And, gentlemen of the Commission, this is a letter dated, as the witness has stated---it is addressed to, "Dear Bernie and Bill," and I assume Bill is----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Bill Burley.
Mr. JENNER. He was then staying with you in New York?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And it is signed Larrie. By the way, do you have the original of this letter with you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't think so. Let me see. No; as a matter of fact, I believe the situation was when I gave the letter to the FBI, they asked me if I needed it back right away, and I said no--I didn't see any value in it, frankly. And then I spoke with Mr. Reedy, the agent who had conducted the investigation at the FBI headquarters in New York, and he said, "Do you want the letter?" And I said, "I don't particularly need it," and I don't recall if I ever got it back.
Mr. JENNER. All right. But the document which has been marked with an exhibit number is a true and correct copy of the letter you received from Larrie Schmidt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It seems to be; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in that letter, there is a reference to CUSA in capital letters. What is CUSA, what was CUSA? What was its genesis?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, CUSA, the letters stand for Conservatism USA, for lack of a better name. Larrie had originally rounded this himself--as far as I know he had originally rounded this himself in Munich some time in 1961.
Mr. JENNER. You mean it was a concept of his?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know if it was his. But I was led to believe the concept was his; and when I became associated with him, almost a year after he had started to develop this organization----
Mr. JENNER. And while you were still in the Army?
Mr. WEISSMAN. While I was still in the Army; right.
Representative BOGGS. What was your rank in the Army?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Private. first class.
Representative BOGGS. That is when you completed your service?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; at the time I was pfc, also.
Representative BOGGS. How long were you in the Army?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Two years.
Representative BOGGS. When you were separated you were private, first class?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. Here is how it came about. I had been in the field on an Army training test. And I had been discussing just political views, foreign policy especially.
Mr. DULLES. Is this Germany, now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; this is Germany.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the overall commander in Germany at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The overall commander?
Mr. JENNER. Was General Walker one of the commanders at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he had been removed at that time. In any case, he would have been about 60 or 70 miles--he was based in Landshut, Germany.
In any case, I was on this army training test with my company, MP Company, and I was talking to the company clerk--he had a book. We just got onto a discussion of politics, just generally. And I expounded some views on foreign policy, and where I agreed or disagreed. And I went into some great detail. And he said, "Gee, if I didn't know better I would say it is Larrie speaking." And I said, "What do you mean?"
And he went into this CUSA organization. He was at that time a partner in CUSA. It was sot up as a business.
Representative BOGGS. What does CUSA mean?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Conservatism USA.
Representative BOGGS. What was Mr. Schmidt's rank?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He was specialist fourth class, SP-4, and he was in charge of public relations for Armed Forces Recreation Centers.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie is 26 or 27.
Mr. JENNER. About the same age as yours?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Burley?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Twenty-nine now, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. A little older--about 2 years older than you and Mr. Schmidt.
Mr. WEISSMAN. In there. A year and a half, 2 years, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What was his rank?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Corporal. At the time that I met Bill he was a pfc. In fact, Bill Burley didn't become really involved in this until, I would say, 2 or 3 months before we left Germany. We left there about the same time, we were discharged about the same time; and, anyway, I was talking to the company clerk, Norman Baker, who was a partner in CUSA. I didn't know this at the time; but he just said he wanted to introduce me to somebody.
Mr. JENNER. What was the rank of the company clerk?
Mr. WEISSMAN. At that time I think he was the only corporal company clerk in the army. And he introduced me to Larrie several weeks later after we had returned from the field.
They tried to pull a big snow job, saying public relations and so on and so forth, just to sort of impress me, and they did. They worked very well together; and, in any case, I became involved in it.
I don't recollect the step-by-step involvement--just that I jumped in with both feet, because I liked the idea.
Mr. JENNER. This was Conservatism USA, and it consisted of an idea at this particular time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And associated with that idea were these people, Larrie Schmidt, yourself, was Burley----
Mr. WEISSMAN. At that time, I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. But he did become?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Later.
Mr. JENNER. And the company clerk--what was his name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Norman Baker.
Mr. JENNER. And yourself--what was that--five? Were there any others?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There were others, but it was the sort of thing where they were involved but not involved. They were just sort of going along for the ride, because it was interesting, and you might say a little diverse from the humdrum army life.
Mr. JENNER. Was CUSA ever organized formally in the sense of corporate organization or drafting of partnership papers and registration under the Assumed Name Act in Texas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Texas; no.
Mr. JENNER. I take it it was organized?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. As a corporation or partnership?
Mr. WEISSMAN. As a partnership.
Mr. JENNER. In what state?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Munich, Germany.
Mr. JENNER. I see. And that was a sort of declaration among you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a written declaration; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who drafted that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We did---that is, we called ourselves--the hangers-on were identified as the outer circle, and the partners were the inner circle. This was just for ease of identification. This, I think, would be the easiest way to really express it.
And the partners, the five partners, were the inner circle, ,the leaders of this organization; and----
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, may I interrupt for just a minute? I have an appointment I must keep at the court.
Congressman Ford, will you preside, please?
Representative FORD. Surely.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, please, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. In short compass, tell us the objectives of CUSA.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, the objectives of CUSA were substantially to set up a political business organization. We used a rough comparison with Ford and the Ford Foundation as an example. The Ford Foundation would be CUSA, Conservatism USA, and the Ford would be AMBUS, or American business.
Mr. JENNER. What was AMBUS?
Mr. WEISSMAN. American business. This was the business half of the political organization.
Mr. JENNER. This was to be a combination of business and politics?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. We were going to use the business end----
Mr. JENNER. Which you called AMBUS?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That would be----
Mr. WEISSMAN. American business, or American businesses.
Mr. JENNER. I don't get the initials. A-B-U-S?
Mr. WEISSMAN. A-M-B-U-S--American business.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. WEISSMAN. And we were trying to develop, in our own minds, without actually doing it at the time, ways to build up various businesses that would support us and at the same time support our political activities.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Could I characterize it this way--that a material objective of this group or partnership was ultimately a self-interest in business?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Coupled with a political arm which was to aid or assist in the business, and each was to feed the other?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The business arm was to be developed mainly to feed the political arm.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. We were mainly interested in the political end. At least this is my feeling on it. Mainly interested in the political end. And the business end, while, of course, we hoped it would succeed, in my mind was merely to support us politically.

(At this point, Representative Ford reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, as of this moment, Mr. Weissman, there were the five of you only. There were no others who were part of the combination business-political group?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We left out one man, one of the original men. His name was James Moseley.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a GI with you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he was an American civilian. His father was a major--is a major in the Army.
Mr. JENNER. And was he an acquaintance of yours?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to this time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not prior to this. I met him when I went into the organization.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Was he an acquaintance of Mr. Schmidt's?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did he get in, is what I am getting at? How did he get into this little group here?
Mr. WEISSMAN. They all hung around the same bar.
Mr. JENNER. What bar?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The Gastatte Lukullus.
Representative BOGGS. How far was that from the bar where Hitler used to gather?
Mr. WEISSMAN. A couple of miles, I think.
Mr. JENNER. It is a bar in Munich?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. It is a GI guest house.
Mr. JENNER. This man you have now mentioned, Moseley, was a civilian in Germany?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He was a civilian; yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did he come to be in Munich? Was his father stationed there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. His father was stationed there. But he was also employed by Rambler--he was selling Ramblers.
Mr. JENNER. What is Mr. Moseley's hometown?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is Mr. Moseley's hometown?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe it is New York. I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He is a pretty young fellow. He is about 21.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you named all of you who were the nucleus of this group?
Mr. WEISSMAN. To my recollection, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you finished your statement as to the general--the general statement as to the purpose of this organization which consisted of the two arms?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not completely. I think what might bear directly is we had planned while in Munich that in order to accomplish our goals, to try to do it from scratch would be almost impossible, because it would be years before we could even get the funds to develop a powerful organization. So we had planned to infiltrate various rightwing organizations and by our own efforts become involved in the hierarchy of these various organizations and eventually get ourselves elected or appointed to various higher offices in these organizations, and by doing this bring in some of our own people, and eventually take over the leadership of these organizations, and at that time having our people in these various organizations, we would then, you might say, call a conference and have them unite, and while no one knew of the existence of CUSA aside from us, we would then bring them all together, unite them, and arrange to have it called CUSA.
Mr. JENNER. You never accomplished this, did you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Almost. Here is how far we did get.
Larrie had--and this was according to plan--the first organization we planned to infiltrate was the NIC, National Indignation Convention, headed by Frank McGee in Dallas. About a week or so after Larrie got to Dallas he got himself a job with the NIC, as one of the very few paid men.
This didn't last too long, because a few weeks after that the NIC went under. And we had also--in other words, we had planned to use these organizations as vehicles to accomplish----
Mr. JENNER. Keep going on those details of your infiltration.
Mr. WEISSMAN. All right. We had planned to infiltrate these various right-wing organizations.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned one.
Mr. WEISSMAN. The NIC. The Young Americans for Freedom. We succeeded there.
Mr. JENNER. What organization is that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The Young Americans for Freedom? This was an organization essentially of conservative youths, college students, and if I recall I think the most they ever accomplished was running around burning baskets from Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Where was it based?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is southwest. Regional headquarters was in Dallas, Tex., Box 2364.
Mr. JENNER. And the earlier organization, the organization you mentioned a moment ago, NIC--where was that based?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What is the next one?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We had also discussed getting some people in with General Walker, getting some people into the John Birch Society.
Mr. JENNER. Stick with General Walker for a moment. To what extent were you able to infiltrate, as you call it, General Walker's group?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well this was rather a fiasco. Larrie's brother, as I mentioned in the letter--Larrie's brother went to work for General Walker.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know his first name. But Larrie led me to believe his brother was some guy brother is about 29. And the only thing I ever heard from Larrie about his brother was good; and when he mentioned that his brother had joined the Walker organization, I figured this is another step in the right direction. In other words, he was solidifying his argument as to why I should come to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And this what he told you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right So when I got to Dallas, I found that Larrie's brother drank too much, and had--well I considered him a moron. He didn't have any sense at all. He was very happy with $35 a week and room and board that General Walker was giving him as his chauffeur and general aide. And so I tossed that out the window that we would never get into the Walker organization this way.
Mr. JENNER. This man's name, by any chance, was not Volkmar?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This name is entirely unfamiliar to me. Never heard it before.
Senator COOPER. Could you identify the Walker organization? You keep speaking of the Walker organization.
Mr. WEISSMAN. General Edwin Walker.
Mr. JENNER. General Edwin A. Walker?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No: I never have.
Representative FORD. How did you infiltrate the Young Americans for Freedom, and what led you to believe you had been successful?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well Larrie had been named executive secretary of the Dallas chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom. And another man--his name is in one of these letters somewhere I don't recall it offhand--who was brought into CUSA by Larrie. was named chairman or vice chairman--vice chairman. And the only other move that we had to make in order to take control of Dallas Young Americans for Freedom would have been to get rid of the chairman, who was anti-Larrie Schmidt. He was absolutely no help to us. And this was on its way to accomplishment. But for some reason or another, there was some sort of an argument. I am still not clear on what happened. I wasn't there. I just can take it secondhand from Larrie.
A friend of Larrie's had come to Dallas--this was Larry Jones. another partner in----
Mr. JENNER. He is mentioned in some of these interviews. Did you meet Larry Jones?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't meet him in Dallas; no. He was gone before I got there. But Larry had come to Dallas, he had stayed a few weeks, had made friends with these people and I had advocated many and many a time---I saw through Larry the first time I met him---is to get rid of this guy, because he was not going to do us any good.
Mr. JENNER. You did meet Jones?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Army yes.
Mr. JENNER. You met Larry Jones in the Army?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes We were all on the same post.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman if you will permit, I would like to go back to that at this moment.
Representative FORD. Surely.
Mr. JENNER. This was another man. You hadn't mentioned him before.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't? I thought I did.
Mr. JENNER. What rank was he?
Mr. WEISSMAN. SP-4 Specialist-4.
Mr. JENNER. That wasn't the company clerk?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No. Larry worked for headquarters. He was in communications---the scramblers and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Seeking to scramble broadcasts?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No. In other words, they would send out the secret messages and so forth from commander to commander and so on.
Mr. DULLES. These were military messages?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man was Larry Jones?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry--he looked 30. I think he is 21.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have the charter or partnership agreement of CUSA with you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if I could see that.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman; the document consists of two pages which have been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1034. It is entitled "Corporate Structure of American Business. Inc.," naming as incorporators or partners, Larrie H. Schmidt, Larry C. Jones, Bernie Weissman, James L. Moseley, Norman F. Baker. It purports to be signed in those names as well on the second page.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1034 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. I notice on the first page that after each of those names there appear to be some initials. Are those the initials of those respective men?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And were those initials placed on there in your presence?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; they were.
Mr. JENNER. The signatures that appear under each of those names or above each of those names on the second page, those are the signatures of those men, including your own?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they placed on there in your presence?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, they were.
Representative FORD. Do you want that admitted at this time, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. I was going to offer these documents in sequence, if it suits the convenience of the Chairman. If we may return now, Mr. Weissman, please, to your efforts to infiltrate various conservative groups----
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? I may have to leave in a few minutes. Was there any time when your organization drew up a list of organizations, of other organizations, that it wanted to infiltrate?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have that list with you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I have lost an awful lot of it. I might.
Mr. JENNER. Would you look, please?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I don't have it.
Senator COOPER. May I ask, then---can he name from memory the organizations?
Mr. JENNER. Using your recollection, sir, and it appears to be very good, if I may compliment you----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Would you do your best to respond to Senator Cooper's question by naming those various groups?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. One was the NIC.
Mr. JENNER. When you use initials, will you spell out what the initials mean?
Mr. WEISSMAN. National Indignation Convention, headed by Frank McGee, in Dallas, Tex.
Young Americans for Freedom, which encompassed the southwest. The initials are YAF.
Mr. JENNER. Located in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Regional headquarters in Dallas. John Birch Society.
Mr. JENNER. Where was the John Birch--was there a chapter or headquarters in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There are several chapters in Dallas; yes. And as far as I can recollect, that is as far as we went.
Representative BOGGS. What did you hope to accomplish by this infiltration, as you call it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I will be very blunt.
Representative Boots. That is what I would like for you to be.
Mr. WEISSMAN. We were, you might say--at least I personally--this is my reason--I was sick and tired of seeing America as a weak sister all the time. And this is especially in the field of foreign affairs, where it seemed that our administration, whether it is the Eisenhower or the Kennedy administration, both of them, had no set, stable foreign policy. We were constantly losing ground all over the world. We were going to conference tables with everything to lose and nothing to gain, and coming away by losing.
And we hoped by developing a powerful political organization we could exert some influence on the government and eventually even put, you might say, our man in the White House, let's say, in order to obtain a stable policy--because we felt that the Communists were gaining ground all over the place, we were doing nothing but losing.
Representative BOGGS. Did you have a candidate for the Presidency?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?
Representative BOGGS. Did you have a candidate you said your man.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I wouldn't say we had a candidate. We had looked to Barry Goldwater as personifying Mr. Conservative. And we had stated in writing, though, that we would support him for the Presidency, but we were not obligated to support him or any other individual.
Representative BOGGS. Are you still in this business?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Representative BOGGS. What are you doing now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am a salesman, I sell carpets.
Representative BOGGS. You have given up this goal?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, if I had money I didn't know what to do with, I would get back into it--only I would do it myself, because I found that in order to accomplish these aims--I mentioned before I considered myself an idealist. I found in order to accomplish these goals I had to against my will prostitute my ideals in order to further the general cause of the organization.
Representative BOGGS. What ideals did you find you had to prostitute?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I personally didn't want to associate with the John Birch Society.
Representative BOGGS. You did not want to?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I did not.
Representative BOGGS. Why didn't you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well; they are rather extreme, I thought. I didn't like some of the things they were doing. For example, I didn't want to spend my days and nights sneaking into bathrooms around the country, pasting up "impeach Earl Warren" stickers.
Representative BOGGS. Is that what they do?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is part of their program. And I can't see any use in it, frankly. In other words, it is just little things like this. Plus the fact that after I got to Dallas, I found that most of the people who are professing anti-communism, they were, they were definitely anti-Communists. But, at the same time, it seemed to me to be nothing but a conglomeration of racists, and bigots and so forth.
Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that--bigots?
Mr. WEISSMAN. They are anti-everything, it seems.
Representative BOGGS. Are you Jewish?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am.
Representative BOGGS. Were they anti-Jewish?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Too many of them, yes. It was requested at one time that I change my name.
Representative BOGGS. Is that right?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Representative BOGGS. What did you tell them?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?
Representative BOGGS. What did you tell them? Did you change your name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Well, did you find this request unusual?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did, as a matter of fact, I got pretty mad.
Representative BOGGS. When you were in Germany, did you find sometimes, particularly in Munich, as long as you opened this line of replies, that some of the Nazi-alleged anticommunism was also associated with their racist policies?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In what vein are you using Nazi?
Representative BOGGS. Well, of course, you know they exterminated quite a few members of your religion in Germany.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. That is a fact; is it not?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it is.
Representative BOGGS. I am using Nazi in the normal term of state dictatorship, with all that it implies. I am sure you have worked on foreign policy, you understand what I mean.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think you are giving me a little too much credit. But I think I can answer your question.
Representative BOGGS. I would like for you to.
Mr. WEISSMAN. At no time did I, and to my knowledge, in Germany, did we consider ourselves fascists or Nazis. As a matter of fact, in my every conversation, and everything I had written----
Representative BOGGS. I didn't ask you whether you had considered yourself as a fascist----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Or any of my associates, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Or any of your associates. I asked you if in your study of events in Germany, having been stationed there, that you didn't soon associate, or that you didn't see some association in your mind of the alleged so-called extreme right with naziism.
Mr. WEISSMAN. No. In fact, I never thought--I thought of the extremists as superpatriots. I had never really defined the term fascist or Nazi in my own mind----
Representative BOGGS. Of course, you realize that members of your religion in Germany were described as traitors, treasonable, and Communists. And I presume that on the other side of the coin those making the accusation classified themselves as superpatriots.
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is quite true. But you are getting into a field right now that at the time----
Representative BOGGS. Were you surprised when you discovered this anti-Jewish feeling? You must have been somewhat, shah I say, disappointed when one of your associates asked you to change your name. I would think that was right insulting.
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was downright insulting, as a matter of fact. No, I wasn't surprised. Now----
Mr. DULLES. Did you have something on this in your letter? I noticed you looking through that letter a minute ago. I thought maybe you had something on this very point in your letter.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. I received a letter from Larrie, while I was in Germany.
Mr. JENNER. Is this another document to which no reference has been made?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am not sure whether this is the one I want to read from. But this letter is an answer that I wrote Larrie.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. I want to put an exhibit number on that. This will be exhibit--Commission Exhibit No. 1035.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1035 for identification.)

Representative BOGGS. I would like for a moment to pursue this a bit. This gentleman is telling us something that I think is very significant. You have a letter there about changing your name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is my answer. I would like to read just this one paragraph.
Representative BOGGS. Who was this addressed to?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was addressed to Larrie Schmidt.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ask you to change your name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. He was your associate?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He didn't ask me directly. He had written a letter to and Larry Jones gave me the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Larry Jones at this time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Germany.
Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No.----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Exhibit No. 1035. This is dated Munich, Germany, January 7, 1963.

(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. It is addressed to whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it it is your letter to Larrie Schmidt.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that a true and correct copy of the original thai did dispatch to Larrie Schmidt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Erasures and all; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did you become aware of the fact subsequently to mailing that letter that he received it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had occasion to discuss it with him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He sent me a letter.
Mr. JENNER. He responded?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you have his response?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I have his response. I don't know if it is with me.
Representative BOGGS. Let's first have what he said.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Paragraph 2 on the second page, "Larrie, as relates to the political goals of CUSA and the methods of achieving them, I (not alone) meaning Bill Burley--"do not wholly support your ideas as concerning the NIC and related or affiliated organizations. It seems to us that this type of organization smacks of hypocrisy. I feel that any type of organization that we to support or begin to take support from should be free from the racism and prejudice in general that is rampant among the high officers of the NIC should be obvious to you that once we associate ourselves with these people, we may acquire a personal reputation that can never be lived down. I am sure you have considered this yourself, because I remember we had talked of it several times. Larrie, let me remind you that my zeal has not slackened, but I did not want to compromise myself or my ideals for the sake of our goals a year ahead of time. I know and you know that we can do a fantastic Job once we get together again with or without these organizations.
Representative BOGGS. What do you say about your name, though?
Mr. WEISSMAN. About my name?
Representative BOGGS. Yes. Changing your name.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't refer to it directly. In other words, in the letter I received from Larrie, he said--he mentioned that the NIC, the leadership, Frank McGee, was anti-Jewish, and it might be best if I changed my name in order to bring myself down to where I can associate with these people.

(At this point, Senator Cooper reentered the hearing room.)

Representative BOGGS. Do you have a copy of that letter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Let me take a look here. With your permission, I would like to read into the record a paragraph----
Mr. JENNER. To what are you referring now, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is a letter sent by Larrie Schmidt to Larry Jones.
Mr. JENNER. And it is in longhand, is it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It is Larrie's.
Mr. JENNER. It consists of seven pages, which we will mark Commission Exhibit No. 1036.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1036 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Before you read from the letter, how did you come into possession of the letter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry Jones gave it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Over in Germany?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Over in Germany; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the envelope which I now have in my hand, from which you extracted the letter, is postmarked Dallas, Tex., November 5.
Representative BOGGS. What year?
Mr. JENNER. 1962. Is that the envelope in which the letter, Commission Exhibit No. 1036, was received by Mr. Jones? I notice the letter is addressed to Mr. Jones, SP-4 Larry Jones.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We will mark that as Commission Exhibit No. 1036-A--that is, the envelope.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1036-A for identification.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. On the third page, last paragraph, he has marked "One bad thing, though. Frank gives me the impression of being rather anti-Semetic. He is Catholic. Suggest Bernie convert to Christianity, and I mean it."
"We must all return to church. These people here are religious bugs. Also no liberal talk whatsoever---none." Larrie had a flare for the dramatic.
Mr. DULLES. When he mentions "these people" who does he mean?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The NIC. And at this point I was ready to drop out of the organization completely, but thought better of it, because I am a perennial optimist. I felt once I got down there it is like changing your wife after you marry her. You figure everything will work out.
Representative FORD. This CUSA organization in Munich-did it have any local Munich affiliation at all? I mean German affiliation?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; none whatsoever. Strictly an American proposition.
Representative FORD. All among GI's, with the one exception of----
Mr. WEISSMAN. GI's or, one or two hangers-on, American civilians over there.
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?
You stated at one point in your testimony that you did not care to become associated with some of the organizations you had discussed. You named the John Birch--you thought it was too extreme. Yet you stated earlier that it was your intention to infiltrate these organizations. How do you explain this inconsistency?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It is difficult to explain. The situation being as fluid as it was--you find that without anything solid to go on, you have got to change your stand a little bit in order to just get started.
Senator COOPER. Let me ask you something else. You said that you all had thought that to be able to fully pursue your political objectives, you needed to have a certain financial independence, is that correct?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did you intend to get some financial support from these organizations, in addition to political support?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; not directly. We felt that after we had accomplished our goal--this is assuming we would accomplish our goal--any treasury that they had through membership dues or what-have-you would then be a common treasury, a CUSA treasury.
Senator COOPER. You had the idea that you could infiltrate and get control of these organizations, then you would have a source of revenue through their treasury, or through whatever treasury you were able to build up?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did you think, also, in terms of contributions to these organizations from individuals?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It had been discussed--never very completely. It had just been brought up. But we didn't know exactly what we were going to do, really.
Senator COOPER. Was there any discussion about the support of these organizations---about the financial support of these organizations, that they might be a source of funds?
Mr. WEISSMAN. You mean from individuals who would contribute?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Was there any discussions as to what individuals were supporting these organizations?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Just those that we had occasionally read about in Life or Look or Time---people like Hunt, H. L. Hunt.
Mr. JENNER. Of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Of Dallas, Tex.--the oilman. In other words, people who are known to be conservative, sympathized with the conservative philosophy. And we didn't know at the time---in fact, I still don't know personally whether or not they do contribute. I just know it is said they do. But whether they do or not, I have no idea.
Representative BOGGS. It has been established, I presume, who paid for this newspaper advertisement.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this is something else. I am still not sure of who paid for it.
Mr. JENNER. The newspaper advertisement is Commission Exhibit No. 1031.
Representative BOGGS. Did you bring the money in to pay for it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Representative BOGGS. Do you know where you got it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I know where I got it. But I don't know where he got it from. I got it from Joe Grinnan.
Mr. JENNER. Joseph P. Grinnan, Room 811, Wilson Building, Dallas Tex., independent oil operator in Dallas.
Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to get it from him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, Joe was the volunteer coordinator for the John Birch Society.
Representative BOGGS. And how did he hand it to you--in a check or cash?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In cash.
Representative BOGGS. How much was it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a total of $1,462, I believe. We had 10 $100 bills day, and the balance the following day. Now, as far as I know, Joe didn't any of this money up personally, because I know it took him 2 days to collect it.
Representative BOGGS. Do you think you know where he got it from?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I really don't know.
Representative BOGGS. He didn't tell you where he got it from?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he did, not.
Representative BOGGS. But you are convinced in your own mind that it wasn't his money?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; because he seemed to be--he didn't seem to be too solvent.
Representative BOGGS. Did you solicit him for this money?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I didn't.
Representative BOGGS. Who did?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe---well, I believe Larrie did. I think the idea for the ad originated with Larrie and Joe.
Representative BOGGS. And Larrie solicited the money?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I don't think so. I think it was Joe who originally broached the subject.
Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to end up with the money?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was an expression of confidence, you might say, that Joe Grinnan had in me.
Representative BOGGS. Did you write the copy?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I helped.
Representative BOGGS. Who else?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie.
Representative BOGGS. So Joe Grinnan gave you the money, and you and Larrie wrote the copy?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We wrote the copy before that.
Representative BOGGS. And then you paid for it. What was this committee? Are you the chairman of that committee?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this is an ad hoc committee. I think we finally thought of the name. as a matter of fact, we decided on it the same morning I went down to place the original proof of the ad.
Representative BOGGS. What do you mean an ad hoc committee?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was formed strictly for the purpose of having a name to put in the paper.
Representative BOGGS. Did you have many of these ad hoc committees?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is the only one that I was involved in; that I know of.
Representative BOGGS. Were there others?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not that I know of.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever ask Joe where this money came from?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; Joe was pretty secretive. I frankly didn't want to know. I was interested, but not that interested. And it didn't-it would have been a breach of etiquette to start questioning him, it seemed.
Representative BOGGS. Have you ever heard of H. R. Bright, independent oil operator?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever hear of Edgar Crissey?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever hear of Nelson Bunker Hunt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; that is H. L. Hunt's son. I knew that he had gotten it from three or four different people, because he told me he had to get $300 here and $400 there, but he did not say where.
Mr. JENNER. The "he" is Mr. Grinnan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Grinnan; right.
Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. Did you suggest that this advertisement had been drafted before he collected the money?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And you used this advertisement as the basis for the collection of the money, or was it used for this purpose, as far as you know?
Mr. WEISSMAN. As far as I know; yes.

(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. May I see the ad for a moment? There are a few things I would like to point out in this.
Mr. JENNER. Give the exhibit number, please.
Mr. WEISSMAN. It is Exhibit No. 1031.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us the genesis of the advertisement, the black border, the context, the text, the part which Mr. Grinnan played, you played, and Mr. Schmidt played in drafting it, how it came about, what you did, in your own words. How the idea arose in the first place and then just go forward.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, after the Stevenson incident, it was felt that a demonstration would be entirely out of order, because we didn't want anything to happen in the way of physical violence to President Kennedy when he came to Dallas. But we thought that the conservatives in Dallas--I was told--were a pretty downtrodden lot after that, because they were being oppressed by the local liberals, because of the Stevenson incident. We felt we had to do something to build up the morale of the conservative element, in Dallas. So we hit upon the idea of the ad.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who you mean?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Me and Larrie, Larrie and Joe, and then all of us together.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. WEISSMAN. And I originally---well, I took the copy of the ad to the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. JENNER. Please, sir---we wanted the genesis from the beginning. How it came about, who participated in drafting it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. About a week or so before placing the ad, Larrie and I got together at his house.
Mr. JENNER. The ad was placed when?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The first payment was made on the 19th or 20th of November.
Representative FORD. Was this after the announcement of the Presidents visit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. You knew that President Kennedy was to be in Dallas on November 22?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A week before that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right; we had started working on the ad. Larrie and I got together. And I said, "What are we going to put in it?"; because I didn't have the vaguest idea. And Larrie brought out a list of questions, 50 questions, that were made up for some conservative---I think it might possibly have been one of Goldwater's aides had just listed 50 questions of chinks in our foreign policy, you might say, weak points. And we just picked some that we thought might apply to President Kennedy and his foreign policy. Because the 50 questions went back quite aways. And all of the questions except for two I had a part in saying okay to. The two that I had no part in was----
Mr. JENNER. Read them, please.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Was the 11th question----
Mr. JENNER. Are those questions numbered?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; but I will read it to you. It says "Why has the foreign policy of the United States degenerated to the point that the CIA is arranging coups and having stanch anti-communist allies of the U.S. bloodily exterminated?"
This was handed in at the last minute by one of the contributed. He would not contribute.
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I have no idea. But he would not contribute the money.
Mr. JENNER. Was this one of the men who gave money to Mr. Grinnan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; this is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Grinnan tell you this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he said "This has to go in."
Mr. JENNER. He said that to you in the presence of whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe Bill Burley was there, and Larrie Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. Where was this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Joe Grinnan's office.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Dallas; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is room 811 of the Wilson Building?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and I was against this particular question, because I frankly agreed with the coup. But it is a question of having all or nothing. Another question that was put in here---I forget exactly when---which I wasn't in favor of, which we put in after the proof was submitted to Joe Grinnan for his approval, is "Why have you ordered or permitted your brother Bobby, the Attorney General, to go soft on Communists, fellow travelers, and ultra-leftists in America, while permitting him to criticize loyal Americans, who criticize you, your administration, and your leadership?"
Now, this struck me as being a States rights plea. and as far as our domestic policy goes, I am a pretty liberal guy. So I didn't agree with that.
Mr. JENNER. Who suggested that question?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't remember. I just remember that it came up---I didn't like it. But the fact was that it had to be in there.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to keep you on that for a moment. Was it a suggestion that had come from a contributor, or did it originate in your group?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I really don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Grinnan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall if it originated with Larrie or Mr. Grinnan or with someone else. I really don't know.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is Mr. Grinnan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I would say in his very early thirties.
Representative FORD. That suggestion, the last one, didn't come from you, however?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Which?
Representative FORD. The one you just read.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Oh, no.
Representative FORD. Because of your own liberal domestic philosophy?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. The only question in here that is entirely my own is the last one, and this is because I was pretty steamed up over the fiasco in Cuba and the lack of followup by the administration.
"Why have you scrapped the Monroe Doctrine in favor of the spirit of Moscow?" I will still stand by that question. As far as the copy at the top of the letter, appearing before the questions, as far as I know, this was written by Larrie Schmidt. He showed it to me. I said, "It is a little rough, but if we are going to get our money's worth out of the ad, I guess it has to be."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I stand over near the witness?
Representative FORD. Surely.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
When you say the copy at the top of the ad, does that include the banner, "Welcome, Mr. Kennedy, to Dallas"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are referring to all that portion of the ad which is Commission Exhibit No. 1031, down to the first question?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. The idea of the black border was mine.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I was going to ask you that. Why did you suggest the black border?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I saw a proof of the ad--drew a mockup, the advertising man at the newspaper office drew a mockup, and it was the sort of thing that you just turned the page and pass it by, unless you had something to bring it out. And I suggested a black border. He put a one-eighth inch black border around. I said try a little heavier one. He went to a quarter inch black border and I said, "That looks okay," and we had the black border.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your present statement that you worked with a copywriter or advertising composer at the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. His name was Dick Houston.
Mr. JENNER. How many editions did this run for the $1,463?
Mr. WEISSMAN. One edition. It came out on the evening edition, on the 21st, and the morning of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Just one paper?
Mr. WEISSMAN. One edition, one paper.
Mr. JENNER. That is only the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It was not in the other Dallas papers?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. The Times Herald?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No. We felt---we didn't even go to the Times Herald. We felt they would not even print it, because they are a very liberal paper, and we felt it would be a waste of time. We were convinced that the Morning News was conservative enough to print it. And they did.
Mr. JENNER. So the Dallas Morning News people were quite aware of the composition of the ad, and worked with you in putting it in final shape?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; as a matter of fact, I had asked to show it to a Mr. Gray, who was the head of the advertising department, and they said no, that wouldn't be necessary, they just have to submit it to a judge something or other, a retired judge who was their legal advisor, and who would look at the ad to see if there was anything libelous in it, so to speak, or anything that the Morning News could be sued for. And I assume they did this, because they didn't let me know right away whether or not they could print it.
When I came back that afternoon, or the following morning---I don't recall which---and they said everything was okay, that it would go.
Mr. DULLES. When you spoke of the head of the advertising department, that is the advertising department of the News?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Of the Dallas Morning News; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Weissman, you have read two questions with which you disagreed.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have read a question, which is the last in the advertisement.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of which you are the author, and you said you would still stand by that particular one.
Mr. WEISSMAN. A hundred percent; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any others with which you had a measure of disagreement, or any other which you now would not wish to support or, put it, stand back of?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There was one other that I thought was being a little rough on the President, but which I didn't particularly agree with a hundred percent.
Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please.
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was in the question that read, "Why has Gus Hall, head of the U.S. Communist Party, praised almost every one of your policies and announced that the party will endorse and support your reelection in 1964?
I personally thought that the selection of this particular question tended put President Kennedy in a light where he is voluntarily accepting this support---in other words, sort of calling him a Communist, which I felt he was not. And, at the same time, though, I had a reservation about making a big furor over it, because of the fact, if nothing else, if the President did read it, he might realize something, and he just might do something about it, in foresaking the support. So I let it go at that.
Mr. DULLES. When you spoke, then, of selection from a list--was that the list to which you referred before, which I believe you said came from the Birch Society?
Mr. JENNER. A list of 50 questions.
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; as far as I know it didn't come from the Birch Society. It was Just some political material that Larrie had collected rafts of--he had books and folders. It was something he pulled out and said, "Maybe we can use this." And we went through the 50 questions. We were in a hurry, and this seemed to be the easiest way out, as far as getting some text, some composition for the ad.
Representative FORD. So the final selection rested with Larrie, Mr. Grinnan, and yourself, with the exception of this one contributor who insisted on one?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, let's put it like this. I signed my name to the ad. But you might say the final selection rested with the contributors. I had to go along with them, because if I said I won't go along with it, or I won't sign my name, there would have been an ad anyway--the ad would have been printed anyway. Larrie would have put his name to it.
Now, let me tell you this. It will be a very short story.
Bill and I had decided about a week after we got to Dallas that Larrie was full of hooey, that we could not go along with this guy.
Representative FORD. What do you mean by that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, everything he is doing he is doing for himself, and if we happen to fit in, it was fine. And he was getting an awful lot of recognition and publicity. We felt if this guy got any stronger, he would be able to move us out, or control us. So when the idea for the ad came up I said, "Okay, I will put my name to it," because I felt any recognition that came would then be in my favor, and if we took advantage of this, and because these organizations would have to back me personally as representing them, I could then denounce the anti-Semitism, the anti-Catholic, anti-Negro, and they would have to back me up, or else I would just tell the whole story about this thing. And I felt that this was going to be my move to get back to the original philosophy of a completely democratic type of organization.
And I had discussed--Bill and I, I might say, were a partnership unto ourselves. We had decided one way or the other we were either going to get out of Dallas or run the thing ourselves, because we didn't like the way it was going.
Mr. DULLES. Did Larrie object to your being the one to sign the advertisement?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; in fact, Larrie was sort of afraid to sign it, because when he came out and said he was part of the Stevenson demonstration, his life had been threatened, and he had all sorts of harrassing phone calls and so on. And he wanted to avoid this. But if it was a question of printing an ad or not printing it, he would have signed it.
Representative FORD. But as far as any organization of any kind being responsible for this ad, it was not true. There was no organization that backed this ad? There were four or five of you that really promoted it and finally raised the money for it and put it in the newspaper?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is not quite accurate. You might say when you get right down to it, in the final tale, the John Birch Society printed that ad, not CUSA.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us why, now. Please expand on that.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, in order to get anywhere in Dallas, at least in the area of conservative politics that we were in, you had to, you might say, cotton to the John Birch Society, because they were a pretty strong group, and still are, down there. And----
Mr. JENNER. Who is the head of that now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The Birch Society?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I never met the fellow. They had a paid coordinator. I don't recall his name offhand. But, anyway----
Mr. JENNER. Were you in his offices?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; Joe Grinnan, as a matter of fact, is the only man in the 'hierarchy of the Birch Society in Dallas that I met.
Larrie was a member of the JBS, and Bill and I didn't like it, but we saw that he was out for himself as much as anything, and this Was a way to help himself along anyway, both politically and financially. And he convinced us of the method to his madness. But as I said we wanted to move Larrie out when we found he was more JBS than he was CUSA, and he was willing to go along with them completely, and forget about the CUSA goals.
Representative FORD. Your allegiance was to CUSA?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. In other words, I would have used the John Birch Society as a vehicle, as planned. But I would never have gone up on a soapbox to support them.
Mr. DULLES. Who were the members of the American Fact-Finding Committee, if any?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, the members would be myself, Bill Burley, Larrie Schmidt, Joe Grinnan--just the people immediately involved.
Mr. JENNER. That was a name and solely a name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Solely a name.
Mr. JENNER. There was no such organization?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. And you used it for convenience on this advertisement?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. As a matter of fact, when I went to place the ad, I could not remember, but the name. I had it written down on a piece of paper. I had to refer to a piece of paper for the name.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever used that name before?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did your group ever use it thereafter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now named all of the people who played any part in, to the best of your recollection--in the idea for the publication of, the actual drafting of the ad, and its ultimate running in that edition of the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There is only one other individual that I could name. He was there at the reading of the final proof, before the ad was printed. That was Joe Grinnan's brother, Robert P. Grinnan.
Mr. JENNER. Is he an older or younger brother?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe he is an older brother.
Mr. JENNER. What business is he engaged in?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Oil and real estate.
Mr. DULLES. Who took out the post office box 1792, Dallas 21, Tex., that appears under your name here on this advertisement?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Bill, Larrie, and I went to the post office together. I signed for the box.
Representative FORD. Do you recall the date?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was the same---the morning--the same morning I originally went to get the ad laid out at the Morning News.
Representative FORD. Has it been discontinued?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The box? Yes; I received a communication from Larrie. He said the box time had run out. They had extended it for 3 month's after that, and then it was-as far as I know, it is nonexistent now.
Senator COOPER. May I ask this question: Would you state now to this Commission the idea of printing this ad was conceived by you and Larry Jones--- what is the other's name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.
Senator COOPER. Alone, and there was no stimulation from any out. side group or organization. Do you state that under oath?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There was Stimulation.
Senator COOPER. From Whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I assume from the Birch Society. In other words, I think the idea for the ad, for the something to do on the occasion of President Kennedy's visit--I think the idea for the something to do came from the Birch Society--- whether Mr. Joe Grinnan or someone else, I don't know.
Senator COOPER. Was it communicated as an idea to you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie communicated the idea to me, said what do you think. I said, why not?
Senator COOPER. Which one of this group did the idea come to?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know.
Senator COOPER. It didn't come to you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; it didn't come to me personally originally, no.
Mr. DULLES. What is the basis of your evidence of saying this was the Birch Society? How did you know that? Where did you get that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, it came to a point where everything we were doing we had to go talk to Joe big brother. And that is just the way it worked out.
Mr. JENNER. This is Joe Grinnan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. They were getting a grip on us, and Bill and I felt that we had to bust this grip somehow.
Mr. DULLES. Was he prominent in the Birch Society?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he was known.
Mr. DULLES. Joe Grinnan?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he was known as a coordinator.
Representative FORD. This one question that was inserted at the insistence of one of the contributors, which reads as follows: "Why has the foreign policy of the United States degenerated to the point the C.I.A. is arranging coups and having staunch anti-Communist allies of the U.S. bloodily exterminated"---to what does that refer? Do you have any specific information?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I know it specifically refers to the Vietnam thing, with the overthrow of Diem, and the subsequent murder of the Diem people.
Representative FORD. Was that said to you at the time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was not said to me at the time. But I had mentioned it various times, and this was definitely, as far as I am concerned--this was definitely the reason for placing that. As a matter of fact, this had occurred not too long after that, I believe.
Mr. DULLES. Who was it that insisted on the insertion of that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, Joe Grinnan handed me this piece of paper. It was written on a piece of scrap paper. I could hardly decipher it, myself. And he said, "This has to be in. Go back and have them change the ad."
So I had to run back to the Morning News, with this other insertion. This is just the way it happened.

(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. I understand that you made a downpayment on the ad.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Representative FORD. And then went back and paid the rest in full?
Mr. WEISSMAN. A thousand dollars the first day, and $400-odd on the second day.
Mr. DULLES. Were both payments made before publication?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles called attention to the post office box number.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That stimulates me to ask you this: Did you receive any responses to the advertisement?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Oh, did I? Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that and also, before you start, do you have any of those responses?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not with me. All that I received I have at home.
Mr. JENNER. And indicate to us the volume that you have at home.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I have approximately 50 or 60 letters; about one-third of which were favorable, and the rest, two-thirds, unfavorable. The favorable responses, all but one came before---they were postmarked, the envelopes were postmarked before the President was assassinated. And the threatening letters and the nasty letters came afterward.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any contributions?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I still have a check to the American Fact-Finding Committee in the amount of $20. Since we never opened a bank account, I just sort of kept the check as a souvenir. There was one $2 contribution----
Mr. JENNER. Cash?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right--from a retired train engineer, or something.
Mr. JENNER. And that is----
Mr. WEISSMAN. For the Wabash Railroad.
Mr. JENNER. Were those the only Contributions?
Mr. WEISSMAN. To my knowledge; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At least that you know anything about?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. In all the letters I received the first time we went to the box. I only went to the box once, that was, I believe, the Sunday morning following the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. The 25th of November?
Mr. WEISSMAN. About; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did anybody have the key to the box in addition to yourself?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Up to that point, only I had the key. After that, I left Dallas on Wednesday, I believe----
Mr. JENNER. I misspoke---it was the 24th of November rather than the 25th.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I left Dallas on the following Wednesday. And at that time I didn't see Larrie personally--he couldn't get to the apartment that Bill and I were staying at for some reason or another. And I left all the dishes and things he had given us to use while we were there, and in one of these dishes I left the key to the box.
Since that time, communications I received from Larrie, he says the tenor of the letters had changed, they are more favorable than unfavorable in the ensuing weeks and months. Of these letters--he sent me one that called me all sorts of names, a lot of anti-Semitic remarks, and he sent another, and he gave excerpts in one of his personal letters, of letters that he received in support of the position of the ad.
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand that you got all the letters that came in up to Wednesday after the assassination, and that your associates have the rest, or Larrie, I presume, has the rest?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know who has the rest. I don't know if it is Larrie or Joe.
Mr. DULLES. Larrie had the key.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. I left him the key---I left him access to the key. I received the letters written during the 2 days following the assassination--the Friday afternoon and Saturday following the assassination--because I picked the mail up the following Sunday morning.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your testimony up to the moment, I would like to take you back to the telephone conversation that you had with Larrie Schmidt, in which he made the reference to Stevenson, following which, that following this conversation, you eventually came to Dallas.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. And this conversation, as I recall it, 'the telephone call, was in the month of October 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. It was the evening of the Stevenson demonstration. According .to the letter I think it was the 24th of October.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, one of the members of the Commission is interested in having you repeat that conversation in full, W the best of your recollection.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Since it is recollection, it is going to change somewhat in words, but in tenor it will be the same.
Mr. JENNER. You do your best.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie called me on the telephone and he was very excited, and he had described what had transpired in Dallas---
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said, please. That is what we are interested in.
Mr. WEISSMAN. He just said----
Mr. JENNER. And his part in it, if any.
Mr. WEISSMAN. He said that he had helped organize this demonstration and it went off beautifully, there is going to be national publicity, the newspapers were all over the place, he had given statements to the news media, to the television. He said he was on TV and radio, and had given out statements, and that he was--it seems that he was going to be heading for, not trouble, but a good deal of difficulty because i.t seems that he was the only one that came out as one of the organizers of the demonstration, who only came out and said so.
Mr. JENNER. And identified himself with the demonstration?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir. He said he had--what did he say--something to the effect that he had a bunch of his people down there, the University of Dallas students.
Mr. JENNER. Did he identify them as students?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall. I met the students several weeks later when I got to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. The students he had employed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That had participated in the demonstration; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he describe what the demonstration was insofar as his part and his group's part in it was?

(At this point, Mr. Dulles reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, just to the effect they had picketed and carried signs and made me noises inside the auditorium. Not he and his group, but that the picketers had raised quite a hullabaloo inside the auditorium.
Mr. JENNER. Were they his picketers?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. This he didn't specify. I had assumed----
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that respect?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I had assumed his picketers were part of it.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. You were repeating to the best of your recollection that telephone conversation.
Mr. WEISSMAN. The gist of the conversation; yes.
Mr. JENNER. As best you are able to recall.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. I really cannot swear to its 100 percent accuracy, but I would say it is 75 percent accurate anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection as to all that was said, in substance?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In substance; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it he urged you to come to Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He did.
Mr. JENNER. That this Stevenson incident had stimulated things to the point that CUSA--you member of CUSA should come to Dallas, and everything was ripe?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He did we can pick up the ball and start running.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you and Mr. Burley then went to Dallas, did you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. We left on the 2d of November.
Mr. JENNER. And that would have been following the receipt of the letter of October 29, which we have identified as----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Commission Exhibit No. 1032.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I drove in my car.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Burley accompany you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you stop off anywhere on the way?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We stopped at his mother's house in South Carolina for about 4 or 5 hours.
Mr. JENNER. And when you reached Dallas, did you find a room, or what did you do?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That night we stayed at Larrie's house. We got there about 5 o'clock in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Where does he live?
Mr. WEISSMAN. At that time he was living at the Eden Roe Apartments, in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a married man?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He was.
Mr. JENNER. I take it he was separated from his wife at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No, no. He has been divorced since.
Mr. JENNER. But he was living with his wife at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, is Mr. Burley a married man, also?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I spoke with him just the other day. His divorce will be final in about 6 weeks, he thinks.
Mr. JENNER. He was married at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; separated.
Mr. JENNER. Where was his wife living?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In West Virginia, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. He had a family, did he not, several children?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Four or five children.
Mr. JENNER. You stayed with him at the Eden Roc Apartments?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That is, with Mr. Schmidt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then you and Mr. Burley arranged a room somewhere, did you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We rented an apartment. I think we stayed with Larrie for 2 days, 2 or 3 days. Then we rented an apartment in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall the address offhand.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, approximately where are we now, as a matter of time in this period?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is----
Mr. JENNER. That you rented the apartment.
Mr. WEISSMAN. About the middle of the first week after we arrived in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Which should be approximately what date?
Mr. WEISSMAN. About the 7th or so of November.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do thereafter in the way of furthering the business of CUSA?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, we were thinking of buying a fourplex, a four-family apartment house.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you going to get the money?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We could have gotten a loan, we hoped, with no downpayment, because of the fact we are GI's, through the FHA, or VA, and we were counting on that. So we were looking around. We had also planned to take over a private club, manage a private club, with an option to buy it.
Mr. JENNER. What club was that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That was the Ducharme Club.
Mr. JENNER. That was in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Dallas; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you become acquainted with that possible business opportunity?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this had been broached by Larrie. This was one of the big disappointments. We had been promised by Larrie we wouldn't have any trouble making a living, that he had jobs and everything set up for us. That is one of the reasons I chucked my job in New York. I figured we would be able to survive down there.
We got to the Ducharme Club, after a day or two, and it was a miserable hole in the wall that you could not really do anything with. But we were still dickering with the owner on the potentials.
Mr. DULLES. What did this club purport to do?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a private club. They sold liquor and beer over the bar to members.
Mr. DULLES. Entertainment?
Mr. WEISSMAN. They had a dance floor and jukebox.
Mr. JENNER. Who-do you recall the names of any of the people interested in the Ducharme Club?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The owners?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. WEISSMAN. The only one I know of is Leon Ducharme, the owner.
Mr. JENNER. Did Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein have any interest in this club?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; not as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with the Carousel Club when you were in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I was never in it, and I still don't know where it is.
Mr. JENNER. You were never in it; you don't know where it is. Did you hear of it when you were there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never. As a matter of fact, in the entire 3 1/2 weeks or so that Bill and I were in Dallas, we didn't go to the movies at all. The only two clubs that I can recall that we went into was the Lavender Lounge----
Mr. JENNER. Where is that located?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall the street.
Mr. JENNER. It is downtown, is it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; it is not downtown. This is-it was about two blocks from our apartment. And it is about, I guess, a good 30-minute walk to downtown from there. And the only other club would be the Ducharme Club.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that located?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That was on Haskell Avenue, in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How far from the downtown area, if at all?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, to make it conveniently, you should take a bus. Otherwise, about a 20 minute walk.
Mr. JENNER. From the Ducharme Club to the downtown area of Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir; and the reason we went to the Ducharme Club after the fact we decided we were not going to take it, was that that was a place we could get credit for beer. Larrie had a charge account there. And that was the extent of our association with that place.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. WEISSMAN. Now, in the Lavender Lounge, the reason we went there, is we were dickering with the owners of the Lavender Lounge----
Mr. JENNER. Name him.
Mr. WEISSMAN. L. S. Brotherton. We wanted to lease a club that he had that was closed down, called the Beachcomber, in a suburb of Dallas. And we had been in there several times and had talked to him about leasing this. In other words, we were looking for something that would give us an income so we could operate a little bit. And that never worked out. He wanted too much money, and we didn't have it.
Mr. JENNER. In any of these negotiations that were carried on by you or your associates, was the name Jack Ruby ever mentioned as having any possible interest whatsoever in any of those groups?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein up to--- at anytime prior to November 24, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; never.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have any information or any knowledge or any notion or feeling that Larrie Schmidt or any of your associates knew of or had any association with Jack Ruby or otherwise known as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think I can state pretty emphatically no.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any communications of any kind or character, written notes, telephone calls, or otherwise, that you know about or knew about then to or from Jack Ruby?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear of the name Jack Ruby?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think he shot Oswald some time in the afternoon or the morning---since Bill and I had. neither a radio or TV in the apartment---we were in the apartment all day.
Mr. JENNER. All day that Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; we had heard about it that night.
Mr. JENNER. That is the 24th of November 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. If that is when Oswald was shot.
Mr. JENNER. And you first became aware of Oswald being shot the night or evening of the 24th?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. I don't recall exactly how. I think Larrie telephoned us, and told us that.
Mr. JENNER. This is the first time we have mentioned the name Oswald. Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald prior to your going to Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of the name Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the name ever mentioned in your presence?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from what you have said that you did not know a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We were sitting in a bar, right after President Kennedy's assassination.
Mr. JENNER. This was the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was Bill Burley, myself, and Larrie. We had made we were to meet Larrie and Joe Grinnan at the Ducharme Club.
Mr. JENNER. For what meal?
Mr. WEISSMAN. For luncheon. We were supposed to meet him at 12:30 or 1 o'clock, I forget which--about 1 o'clock. And I had a 12:30 on the button, as a matter of fact--I had an appointment to sell a carpet out in the Garland section of Texas--it was a 2:30 appointment. And I was in a hurry to get to meet Larrie and finish the lunch, and whatever business they wanted to talk about I didn't know. So I looked at my watch. I remember specifically it was 12:30, because at that time Bill had been driving my car. He had quit the carpet company and was looking for another job. He had looked at a franchise arrangement for insecticides. He picked me up. He was waiting for me from 10 after 12 to 12:30. We got into the car. I am a great news bug. So I turned the radio on, looking for a news station. And they had---at that time, as I turned the radio on, the announcer said, "There has been a rumor that President Kennedy has been shot." So we didn't believe it. It was just a little too far out to believe.
And after several minutes, it began to take on some substance about the President's sedan speeding away, somebody hearing shots and people laying on the ground. In other words, the way the reporters were covering it. I don't recall exactly what they said. And, at this time---we were going to go to the Ducharme Club through downtown Dallas. We were heading for the area about two blocks adjacent to the Houston Street viaduct. And then we heard about the police pulling all sorts of people somebody said they saw somebody and gave a description. And the police were pulling people off the street and so forth. So Bill and I didn't want to get involved in this. So we took a roundabout route. We got lost for a while. Anyway, we finally wound up at the other side of Dallas, and we were at the Ducharme Club.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, was Mr. Schmidt there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He was waiting for me. But Joe Grinnan wasn't there. He had heard this thing and took off. I guess he wanted to hide or something.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, because the way it was right away, the announcers, even before it was ascertained that President Kennedy was dead, or that he had really been shot, that it was a rightwing plot and so forth. And he had every reason to be frightened.
Mr. JENNER. Why did he have every reason to be frightened?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Because, let's face it, the public feeling would suddenly be very antirightwing, and no telling what would happen if a mob got together and discovered him. They would tear him apart.
Bill and I were frightened to the point because I knew about the ad. And I knew exactly what---at least I felt in my own mind I knew what people would believe. They would read the ad and so forth, and associate you with this thing, somehow, one way or another. So we went to another bar--I don't remember the name of it--the Ducharme Club was closed, by the way, that afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Ducharme Club, it was closed, but you found Mr. Schmidt there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie was waiting on the corner. He got in the car. We sat and talked for a few minutes. We went to another bar a few blocks away. We drank beer and watched television. And we had been in the bar, I guess, about an hour when it come over that this patrolman Tippit had been shot, and they trapped some guy in a movie theater. And maybe half an our, an hour later, it came out this fellow's name was Lee Harvey Oswald. This is the first time I ever heard the name.
Mr. JENNER. What was said at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. By us?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. When it was announced it was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. WEISSMAN. We were relieved.
Mr. JENNER. Anything said about it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall. First, what was said, like, I hope he is not a member of the Walker group--something like that--I hope he is not one of Walker's boys. Because it is like a clique, and it is guilt by association from thereafter. So it came over later this guy was a Marxist. This was the same afternoon, I believe. It was found out this fellow was a Marxist. And then the announcers--they left the rightwing for a little while, and started going to the left, and I breathed a sigh of relief. After 4 hours in the bar, Bill and I went back to the apartment, and Larrie went to the Ducharme Club. He was afraid to go home.
Mr. JENNER. I thought the Ducharme Club was closed.
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was open at that time. We drove by. It was open. Larrie went in. We dropped him off there. And Bill and I went back to our apartment. We just waited. We knew we were going to get involved in this thing because of the ad. And we figured that if anybody at all in Dallas was on the ball, they know who we were and where we were. So we waited. Nothing happened. We waited there until we left. We barely left that house. As a matter of fact----
Mr. JENNER. You remained in the house all that evening, did you--the apartment?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think the-yes; late that evening Larrie came home.
Mr. DULLES. That is Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I think Larrie went home late that evening, and Bill and I met him there.
Mr. JENNER. You went to Larrie's home?
Mr. WEISSMAN. To Larrie's apartment; yes. And I said what are we going to do? And Larrie said, "Well"--he had talked to Joe Grinnan, and Joe said don't say anything, don't do anything, don't get any more involved than you have to, lay low, keep out of it, it is going to be pretty bad. And it was. Thereafter, a day or so later----
Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that-it is going to be pretty bad?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In other words-this is just exactly the way it worked out. For example----
Mr. JENNER. You are now explaining what you mean by "and it was"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. Stanley Marcus, who was a Dallas businessman, financier----
Mr. JENNER. Nieman Marcus?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Of the Nieman Marcus group, yes, and he was a well-known and rather very rabid liberal. And sure enough, even though the following day it was then established that Oswald was a Marxist and so forth, and there was some question as to whether or not it was a Communist plot, pros and cons, and Marcus put his 2 cents in in the Dallas Times Herald, and he starts blaming the rightwing for the trouble. And I was told--I didn't see this----
Mr. JENNER. This was on the 23d now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was on the following day; yes, sir. And, in other words, he and friends of his, I guess, did everything they could to solidify their position as being always in the right, and throw the blame, even though Oswald is obviously a Marxist--they tried to transfer the blame to the rightwing. They had us on the run and they were going to keep it that way.
Mr. JENNER. How did this come to your attention?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Just by reading the newspapers.
Mr. JENNER. The Dallas Times Herald and the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There was very little in the Morning News about the right-wing, that was antirightwing, and the Dallas Times Herald was full of it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please delineate what you mean by "us" who were on the run?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I mean any conservative in Dallas at that time was keeping quiet.
Mr. JENNER. Including yourself and the other men you mentioned?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Including myself and everybody I was associated with; yes, sir. And a day or so after that, I think it was Sunday or Monday, I had suggested to Larrie, and I spoke to Joe Grinnan on the phone, that maybe I should call the FBI and give them the story on this ad.
And he said, "Now, look, if they want you, they will find you. They know where you are, probably. So if they want you, they will find you." So I waited. And several times I was going to make that phone call, and I did not. Then finally we just ran out of money.
Mr. JENNER. You are probably a few days beyond the 23d now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right; I am. I am going now---everything was rather stable, static up until the Wednesday, the following Wednesday, when I left Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I want to complete your whole day of the 23d before you move beyond that. Did you or Bill leave your apartment on the 23d?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; we were over at Larrie's house. I don't remember exactly the times. We had been to Larrie's place several times.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in the Dallas downtown business district at anytime on the 23rd?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't think so--no--no, as a matter of fact. In fact, I didn't get around to the business district until--yes. We went into the outer-edge of the downtown area to get to the post office, to pick up the letters.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. On the 23d you went to the post office box and picked up the 60-odd letters that you have at home in New York.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. And then we went directly back to the apartment, and opened these letters.
Mr. JENNER. That is all you did in the downtown area?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; so far as I can recollect.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately what time of the day was that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That was in the morning. That was early in the morning--- about 8 or 9 o'clock, I guess, in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any telephone calls at your apartment that day?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I received--Larrie called us, I know. I don't recall what was said. It was just like, "What is happeningeverything okay?"
On Monday I received a letter----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have we now accounted from the time you got up Saturday morning until the time you went to bed that evening?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall. Bill and I might have gone out for a hamburger a couple of blocks away. We didn't go anywhere near downtown. We might have gone to Larrie's apartment that night. I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d--we picked you up in your car with Mr. Burley around 12:30. Now, what happened that morning?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That morning?
Mr. JENNER. Yes--the 22d. Where were you the morning of the 22d, up to 12:30 o'clock in the afternoon?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Let's see. I left the apartment at about--I guess it was a little after 9. We had a 10 or 10:30 sales meeting scheduled, or 9:30. Anyway, I got there on time for the sales meeting.
Mr. JENNER. That was the carpet company by which you were employed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Name it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. AN. Carpet Engineers.
Mr. JENNER. And you had obtained that job when?
Mr. WEISSMAN. A.bout a week after arriving in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And that was located where?
Mr. WEISSMAN. 1002 South Beckley, in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In the Oak Cliff section?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. On Beckley?
Mr. WEISSMAN. On Beckley.
Mr. JENNER. What was the address?
Mr. WEISSMAN. 1002. I know what you are getting at. Oswald also had a room on Beckley, but he was on the opposite extreme. I think he was on North Beckley. I was on South Beckley.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the distance approximately between the location of the carpet company by which you were employed which is on South Beckley, and Oswald's address on North Beckley.
Mr. WEISSMAN. At least a few miles. I don't know. I had never been on North Beckley.
Mr. JENNER. At no time while you were in Dallas were you ever on North Beckley?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not as far as I know, unless I got lost and didn't know where I was. But as far as I know, I have never been there.
Mr. JENNER. And you were a salesman of carpeting?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever sell any carpeting?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not a one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I made a lot of effort. This is where most of my money went--for gas and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Your associate, Mr. Burley, was he a salesman for this company also?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He quit about 2 weeks--about several days before the 22d. And he was looking---of course, one of us had to make money. We both were blanking out with the carpets.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, he had been employed by the same carpet company?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You made application together, did you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you were both employed at approximately the same time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. But he left the carpet company before you did?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And I understand you attended a sales meeting at the carpet company the morning of the 22d.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When did that sales meeting break up?
Mr. WEISSMAN. 12:30 for me. It was still going when I left. I left at 12:30 because I had this afternoon appointment, and also this meeting with Larrie. I had talked to the sales manager after that. I had----
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Frank Demaria. And I had asked him if he had been questioned at all by the FBI. He said yes, they had been around. And I said, "What did you tell them?" And he mentioned at that time, he says, "We thought you had left about 12 o'clock." And I said, "What are you trying to do?"
And, anyway, this is the way it went. But I know I left at 12:30. They were embroiled in a big discussion, and they were not cognizant of the time. I was.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you tell us what you did on the 24th?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Went to pick up the mail in the morning, went back to the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. You picked up mail in the morning on Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right, the post office was open Sunday morning.
Mr. JENNER. You went to the post office on the 23d, which is Saturday, and you also returned----
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I didn't go to the post office on Saturday the 23d.
Mr. JENNER. I .misunderstood you, then.
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I am almost positive it was Sunday morning. I know it wasn't Saturday. I am positive almost. positive it was Sunday morning.
Mr. DULLES. That is when you picked up the 50-odd letters you referred to?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. It was the day that you heard that Ruby had shot Oswald, was it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am getting a little confused now. I think I might be 1 day----
Mr. JENNER. See if we can orient you. The assassination of the President occurred on the 22d of November 1963, which is a Friday.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Then .there was Saturday. Then on Sunday the 24th occurred the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with those events in mind, when did you go to the post office box?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, now, I knew it was not Monday. Now, I am back in perspective. I am almost definitely sure it was Sunday morning.
Mr. JENNER. You said earlier that it was Saturday. You said it was the day after the ad appeared, that night and you went the next day.
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; couldn't have.
Mr. JENNER. That was an error?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That was a.n error; yes. It was Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. All right. New, on further reflection, your recollection is reasonably firm now that you did go to the post office box on Sunday rather than Saturday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am almost positive it was Sunday morning.
Mr. JENNER. You are equally positive it was not Monday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It might either be---I remembered there was an awful lot of traffic. And I don't know if the traffic was because every was driving through downtown to go around the Houston viaduct to see the scene of the assassination or what. And this is what is confusing me now. That is why I am not sure if it was Sunday morning---it might have been Monday morning. I doubt it. But it might have been.
Mr. JENNER. But it was early?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Around 8 o'clock?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Eight, nine o'clock; yes.
Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to account for your comings and goings and your whereabouts on Sunday the 24th. And in the course of doing that, in referring to the morning, you mentioned that you had gone to the post office box. Now, what did you do thereafter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Went right back to the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Burley accompany you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and another, her fellow. Ken---Kenneth Glazbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is a fellow associated with CUSA, but never really. He came in, as a matter of fact--yes; I had forgotten about him. President Kennedy was assassinated on a Friday. Ken Glazbrook arrived in town by bus on Friday night. We went down to the bus station to pick him up.
Mr. JENNER. You knew he was coming?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. He----
Mr. JENNER. Please identify him.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Ken Glazbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; who was he?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Ken is what you might call a world traveler. This is a guy--he is a political science he has a masters in political science from UCLA, I believe. And we had hoped to bring him in as our political analyst.
Mr. JENNER. Had you met him in the service?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Germany; yes. Larrie met him at one time originally. Ken was passing through Munich, and he had stopped off at our favorite bar, and gotten into a discussion with Larrie. And he had been through Munich after that two or three times, at one occasion which I met him. And he had also said, "I will meet you in Dallas."
But he came and he went. He stayed with Bill and I for a couple of days at our apartment, because he was on his way home to California. From what I understand now, he is back in Europe. He could not take it here.
Mr. JENNER. I am still accounting for Sunday. You went to the post office box, you think. You went to the bus station to pick up----
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am not sure whether this was--I am pretty sure it was Friday night we picked him up at the bus station. It might have been Saturday night. But I am more sure in my mind-my inclination goes more toward Friday night.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him on Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Ken?
Mr. JENNER. Did you see this man on Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He was in the apartment with us.
Mr. JENNER. He came to stay with you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he brought a pitcher and a knapsack.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go down to the post office box with you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he returned to your apartment?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do then?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We went through the letters. We were going pro and con, and reading them. We were very pleased at first because a lot of it was favorable, and then we got to the later postmarks, and these were terrible. We just discussed the letters for a while. And a girl came over. What was her name? Lynn something--I don't know her last name. And she sat around and talked for a while. We discussed the letters with her. Then Larrie came over that afternoon also. He was wearing a turtle-neck sweater. And we stayed around for a few hours. Then Larrie and Lynn took off to the Ducharme Club. And thereafter I don't know what happened to them. I did not hear from them at all. And--that is about it for Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear about the Ruby-Oswald incident?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think Larrie called me up. Yes, he was watching television at the Ducharme Club, I believe. I believe this was the occasion. I think he was with Lynn. And he telephoned me at the apartment. And that was the story.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified you were never in the Carousel Club.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. What if any acquaintance did you have with Officer Tippit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None.
Mr. JENNER. What if any acquaintance did any of your associates have to your knowledge with Officer Tippit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever heard of the name Officer Tippit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Up to or any time during the day of November 22, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None at all. The first I ever heard of this name was after Oswald shot him, and it came over the TV, that a policeman had been shot near a movie theater. That was the first I had heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether any of your associates, Schmidt or Burley or Jones, or any persons you have mentioned, knew Officer Tippit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during all the time you were in Dallas to lead you to believe any of these people, including Mr. Grinnan, for example, had had any connection with or association or knowledge of or acquaintance with Tippit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not as far as I know. I don't know too much about Joe Grinnan.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at anytime while you were in Dallas ever have a meeting with or sit in the Carousel Club with Officer Tippit?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know or do you have any information as to whether any of the associates you have mentioned ever had a meeting with Officer Tippit in the Carousel Club?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Or whether or not, irrespective of whether it was a formal meeting or even an informal one, that they were with Officer Tippit at anytime in the Carousel Club.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Absolutely not.
Mr. JENNER. And you were never in the Carousel Club at all; and you never were with Officer Tippit.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Any place.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Any place.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Weissman, it has been asserted that a meeting took place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit and yourself--and I take it from your testimony that you vigorously deny that that ever took place.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Very definitely. May I say something in relation to this?
Mr. JENNER. Is it pertinent to this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe so. I believe that this is a statement made by Mark Lane, who claimed to be attorney for the deceased Oswald. It was originally made at the Town Hall in New York, and later that same evening, I do not recall the date exactly, on a radio program Contact WINS New York, at about midnight of that same day.
At that time I telephoned the radio station and spoke to Mark Lane. This is the first I had heard of the allegation at all.
Mr. JENNER. You telephoned the radio station?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And you asked for Mr. Lane.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did the man for whom you asked come to the phone?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known Mr. Lane prior to this time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never beard of him before.
Mr. JENNER. You had never spoken to him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask--when there was an answer on the phone, did ask who it was that was on the phone?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I did something to the effort of "Hello, Mr. Lane?"
Mr. JENNER. What did the voice on the other end of the phone say?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He said yes--yes something.
Mr. JENNER. Did you identify yourself?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you identify yourself before or after you asked whether voice was that of Mr. Lane?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I identified myself-I called the radio station and it was a telephone thing that was broadcast over the air, question and answers you telephone in a question and he answers. So I telephoned, and just by happened to get through on the first ring. And somebody said, "Who is cal I said, "I would like to speak with Mr. Lane. This is Bernard Weissman, chairman of the American Fact-Finding Committee." And so I got him on the phone, because they could not pass this up.
And I told him, I identified him that "You are the attorney for the assassin Oswald"-this is Just what I said to him.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. WEISSMAN. And he said--he murmured in agreement. He did not emphatically "Yes; I am." But he said, "Urn-hum," something to that effect. And I said, "I know what you are trying to do. I think you are hunting for headlines.. But you had been talking to some liar in Dallas who has been feeding you all this baloney about me. You are making all these allegations at the Town Hall and now on radio. And you have never taken the trouble to contact me. My name has been in the paper. It is very well known where I live. I am in the phone book. You could have at least tried to contact me." And I pinned him up against the wall verbally. And he agreed at that time----
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He said that he had no definite proof, that he would have to check on it.
Mr. JENNER. Proof of what?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Proof of the allegations.
Mr. JENNER. Did you mention what the allegation was when you talked with him on the telephone?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I said, "You are alleging that I had a meeting with Patrolman Tippit in Jack Ruby's bar with some unidentified third person about a week before the assassination." I said, "You are going strictly on the story of some liar in Dallas." I said, "If you had any courage or commonsense or really wanted to get at the facts, you would have called and asked me, too." And he agreed, yes, he should have talked to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say yes he should have talked to you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and that he would also recheck his facts in Dallas. And that ended the essence of the conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection as to that conversation?
Mr. WEISSMAN. As to that particular conversation; yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you adverted to his assertion in the Town Hall meeting, that you had been present in the Carousel Club in a meeting with Officer Tippit, did you say that you denied that you were ever in the Carousel Club?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I denied that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was what you said.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I said, "I did not know Lee Harvey Oswald. I did not know Jack Ruby. I have never been in the Carousel Club."
Mr. JENNER. And you said that to him over the telephone on that occasion----
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This is when he came up with he would have to recheck his facts and he would have to check into it. Subsequently, I had talked to him later that same evening--the show went off at 1 a.m. in the morning. And I had been given a private number to call at the radio station. I talked to him on the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get that number?
Mr. WEISSMAN. The announcer gave it over the air. And he said, "If you want to speak with Mr. Lane"--because I was getting pretty hot.
Mr. JENNER. You mean angry?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Angry; yes. And he said, "If you want to talk to Mr. Lane call him after the show is over, about 5 after 1," I forget the number of the station. And I telephoned him.
Mr. JENNER. You called the same number again.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You asked for Mr. Lane.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And somebody responded?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Mr. Lane got on the wire.
Mr. JENNER. Was it the same voice?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say in the way of acknowledging that it was Mr. Lane?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I went into it again.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say, "Mr. Lane"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the voice's response was what?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I said, "Hello, Mr. Lane." And he said--I said, "Hello, Mr. Lane." And he said, "Yes."
"This is Bernie Weissman" or Mr. Weissman. And he said "Yes." And then I reiterated what I had said, and that he had better check his facts--and "I am going to get a hold of some friends in Dallas to check on your witness and find out who he is."
Mr. JENNER. Please identify these people.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I was saying this to Mark Lane. And Mark Lane repeated again----
Mr. JENNER. Please say again what you said to Mr. Lane, and then what his response was, because with the rapidity with which you speak, it is difficult to sort out his words from your words.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well----
Mr. JENNER. It might be well if you started over again. You called the station. You asked for Mr. Lane and a voice responded.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You then said. "Mark Lane"? And he responded?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, carry on from there.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I told him that he had better check his facts, that he is off on a tangent, that there is absolutely no factual background.
Mr. JENNER. For what?
Mr. WEISSMAN. For him saying, his allegations, that I had had this meeting with Tippit in Ruby's bar.
Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that again? Did you repeat again that you had not been in the Carousel Club at anytime?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know if I repeated it at that time. I just made a point of saying that he had better check his facts and talk with me also, and get both sides of the story here, before he got himself in trouble. By trouble, I had assumed he knew what I meant--I meant a lawsuit. And I would have sued him, but I could not find a lawyer to handle the case. They said any publicity that comes out of it would be only bad. So I dropped it. Several days later----
Mr. JENNER. Have you finished the conversation?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I have finished the conversation with him. Several days later I got ahold of his office number.
Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the time of this Town Hall meeting broadcast, as best you can.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am pretty sure it was on the 28th or the morning of the 29th---on the Town Hall thing? That was the afternoon of the 28th of April, I believe. I believe it was April. It was prior to his coming to a hearing here at the Commission. And in any case, I telephoned him several days after our radio and telephone conversation--I telephoned him at his office in Manhattan and got him on the line again. And I said. "Well, what has happened?" I was very curious as to what he had done about this.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you reach him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. At his office in Manhattan. I do not know the address. I had first contacted a law firm he was associated with previously, and they gave me his office number in lower Manhattan. And I telephoned him at his office. The secretary answered, then he got on the line. And he said this time--I don't recall exactly what was said before or after this particular part of the conversation. But I said that I want to meet this guy in Dallas, the one who told him this story and call him a liar to his face, and that I wanted it to be a public meeting, and Mark Lane said he would arrange for a public meeting, he would pay my transportation to Dallas to see this guy as soon as he could arrange a meeting. And I have not heard from him since.
Mr. JENNER. To check that date you gave us again, Mr. Weissman--Mr. Lane appeared before the Commission on Wednesday, March 4, 1964.
Mr. WEISSMAN. March 4? March? I did not think it was that long ago. If he appeared March 4, then the conversation--well, I stand corrected. I am not positive of the month.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been February 28th?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It might have been. If it was March 4 he appeared here, it might have been February 28, because there seemed to be several weeks lapse between his coming here----
Mr. JENNER. Are you certain, however, that your telephone conversation with him the evening of the broadcast following the Town Hall meeting was before he appeared before the Commission?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Unless he appeared twice, I am a 100 percent positive.
Mr. JENNER. And from what source did your information come that he had appeared before the Commission?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Newspapers.
Mr. JENNER. I think we can close this. I show you Garner Exhibit No. 1. Did you ever see the person who is shown on that photograph?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 520 and direct your attention to the man in the white tee shirt between the two policemen. Did you ever see him before?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22, 1963, had you ever seen him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. And except for these photographs, and whatever newspaper clippings or photos you have seen since November 22, or television shows on or after November 22, have you ever seen that person in the flesh?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any contact with him of any kind?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Telephone calls, letters, memoranda of any kind or character?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there is correspondence that Mr. Weissman has, and I wonder if it would be convenient with the Commission if we could return at 2:30. In the meantime I will be able to look at some of the material he has to see if any of it is relevant and helpful to the Commission.
Mr. DULLES. I would like to adjourn at this time if we can, because I have a luncheon appointment.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I am suggesting, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Good.
We will adjourn until 2:30.

(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

(The Chairman and Mr. Dulles being present.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. You may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Whereupon, Bernard Weissman was recalled as a witness and having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, during the luncheon hour Mr. Weissman has afforded us an opportunity to examine some of this correspondence, to which he made reference this morning. I have selected a few of these pieces of correspondence as rounding out the genesis of CUSA and its affiliate, AMBUS, and the infiltration of the rightist organizations in Dallas that the witness described.
I will identify these without reading from them, as some of them are rather lengthy.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. First, Mr. Weissman, I have a letter on the letterhead of National Indignation Convention, the top of which has scrawled in ink longhand "Top Secret." It is a five-page longhand letter. At the bottom of each is written the word "Destroy." I have marked an envelope postmarked Dallas, Tex., on November 5, 1962, as Commission Exhibit No. 1048, the first exhibit being identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1047.

(The documents referred to were marked respectively Commission Exhibits Nos. 1047 and 1048 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The envelope is addressed to SP-4 Larry Jones, APO Station 407, New York, N.Y.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting on the envelope?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; that is Larrie's.
Mr. JENNER. And the Larry Jones is the man to whom you made reference in your testimony?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The document Commission Exhibit No. 1047, do you recognize that handwriting?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It appears to be Larrie's.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was document Commission Exhibit No. 1047. enclosed in the envelope marked Commission Exhibit No. 1048?
Mr. DULLES. Is there any signature on those documents?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This page should be last.
Mr. JENNER. On the page which is marked with a circle 7, there appears to be a signature L-a-r-r-l-e. Do you recognize that signature?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is Larrie Schmidt's signature.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come into possession of the documents now identified, one of which was addressed to Larry Jones rather than you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry Jones gave it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In Munich, Germany.
Mr. JENNER. And when he handed the document to you was Exhibit No. 1047 enclosed in Exhibit No. 1048?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Next is a three-page letter dated Dallas, Tex., January 4, 1963, typewritten, addressed to "Dear Bernie." Is that you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1040.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1040 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. It is signed in typing "Larrie."
A document of five pages marked Commission Exhibit No. 1041 on the first of which appears the signature Larrie H. Schmidt.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1041 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize that signature?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt's.
Mr. JENNER. The last of this series of letter-sized papers is a five-page document titled "A Code of Conduct for Members of Conservatism U.S.A." which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1042.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No, 1042 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. I understand that these three documents that I have now identified were enclosed in an envelope which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1043, in the upper left-hand corner, L. H. Schmidt, 5417b Lewis Street, Dallas 6, Tex., addressed to Private First Class Bernie Weissman. Is that you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is me.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1043 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. That is postmarked Dallas, January 4, 1963.
Did you receive the documents, now identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1040, 1041, 1042, and 1043?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Were the first of those three--were the first three of those exhibits I have named enclosed in the document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1043?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I have already identified the signature.
These documents relate to the development of and plans for CUSA, do they not?
Mr. WEISSMAN. They do.
Mr. JENNER. And the conduct of CUSA?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The next two documents, a three-page letter typed on the top "Headquarters Conservatism U.S.A.," dated February 2, 1963. at Dallas, Tex., 5417b Lewis Street, which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1049.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1049 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. This is addressed "To All Members." It is signed in typing "Sincerely, Larrie." Have you seen that document before?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And was it enclosed in an envelope?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was.
Mr. JENNER. Was it sent to you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Is that document the envelope Commission Exhibit No. 1050?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1050 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. There is handwriting on the face of Exhibit No. 1050. Whose handwriting is that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is mine.
Mr. JENNER. Read it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. "Meeting with Bob Morris, Infiltration of YAF by CUSA."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, the three-page document relates to a meeting held in the home of Dr. Morris. Is that Dr. Robert Morris?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right, of Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Which recounts the plans for infiltration of conservative groups in Dallas, Tex. upon which the witness has somewhat expanded in his testimony this morning.
Mr. DULLES. Has the witness indicated who Mr. Bob Morris was? I don't recall that.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Bob Morris at that time was president of the Defenders of American Liberties in Dallas, Tex., and recently was a candidate for political office in Dallas.
Mr. DULLES. What office?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe he was running in the primary for Senator.
Mr. JENNER. U.S. Senate.
Mr. WEISSMAN. U.S. Senator.
Mr. JENNER. I just want to be sure I have covered this. You received both of the documents now marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 1050 and 1049 in due course through the U.S. mail at your station in Munich, Germany?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. The next series is--consists of a two-page letter which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1044, addressed to "Dear Bernie" at Dallas, Tex. on June 13. 1963, also signed in typing "Best, Larrie." That is again Larrie Schmidt, is it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1044 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. That document was enclosed in what?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In this envelope here.
Mr. JENNER. And the envelope is marked Commission Exhibit No. 1046?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1046 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. For the purposes of the record, Commission Exhibit No. 1046 is an envelope postmarked at Dallas, Tex., on June 14, 1963. The envelope is imprinted with "Young Americans for Freedom, Inc., Southwestern U.S. Regional Headquarters, P.O. Box 2364, Dallas 21, Texas," and addressed to Pfc. Bernie Weissman. That is you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything else enclosed in an envelope?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe it was this.
Mr. JENNER. A newspaper clipping from the Dallas Morning News which has been marked and identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1045. Is that right?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1045 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The caption of this reads "Panel Reports Birch Society Dedicated But Not Dangerous." Those three documents were received by you from Larrie Schmidt?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The third from the last of this series, a letter dated at Dallas, Tex., June 2, 1963, addressed to "Dear Bernie," Commission Exhibit No. 1037. Also in typing "Larrie." Who is that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. There is some handwriting at the bottom of that letter--do you recognize it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; that is Larrie Schmidt's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that document?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I did.
Mr. JENNER. And was the handwriting on the document when you received it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Was it enclosed in an envelope?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. You received the mail, then.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the envelope I now show you marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037-A?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037-A for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Addressed to you. Was there something further enclosed with those?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think this piece.
Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit No. 1037-B.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No 1037-B for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. This is a handbill of Young Americans For Freedom, Inc.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You received all three documents I have now identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1037, 1037-A, and 1037-B in due course through the U.S.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Next to the last of this series is a letter, single page marked Commission Exhibit No. 1038, dated June 26, 1963, at Dallas, Tex., addressed to "Dear Bernie" signed again in typewriting as "Larrie." Have you seen that document before?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. When I received it in the mail.
Mr. JENNER. I show you an envelope marked Commission Exhibit No. 1038-A.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1038-A for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Is that envelope the envelope in which Commission Exhibit 1038 was enclosed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and as a reference, the handwriting on the outside of these envelopes on this and the other exhibits that refer to the contents were put on by me about a week ago, so I could identify it.
Mr. JENNER. Please read what you have written on the face of Commission Exhibit No. 1038-A.
Mr. WEISSMAN. "Ready to take over YAF. Jones in Dallas. Ducharme Club."
Mr. JENNER. And that Ducharme Club is the club, the private club, semiprivate club in Dallas that you mentioned in your testimony this morning.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Lastly, a single-page exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 1039, dated at Munich, Germany, on July 31, 1963.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1039 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. This purports to be a copy of a letter apparently from you to Larrie Schmidt, is that correct, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And this is a carbon copy of the actual letter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you mail the original of this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I did.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. On or about the date this letter bears?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. DULLES. What date is that?
Mr. JENNER. July 21, 1963.
On Commission Exhibit No. 1043, which is the envelope which enclosed several other exhibits, there is some handwriting. It that yours?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. "Membership List 1962. Code of Conduct and Introduction to CUSA. Ultimatum."
Mr. JENNER. And that is a shorthand description or summary of the contents of the envelope?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On Commission Exhibit No. 1048, which is also an envelope, there appears to be written on the face "NIC Infiltration." Whose handwriting it that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's mine.
Mr. JENNER. And you put it on there under the circumstances you have now related?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Weissman, I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 996. Have you ever seen a counterpart of that exhibit which is entitled "Wanted for Treason"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never directly.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about your first acquaintance with that, with the circumstances, if you know, of how it came into existence, and who had anything to do with it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I can only go by hearsay on this--what I have seen and what I have heard from other individuals.
Mr. JENNER. Did this come to your attention before November 22, 1963, or after?
Mr. WEISSMAN. After.
Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know, please.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I had heard that these handbills were distributed somewhere in North Dallas, I believe, on the university campus I believe it was, the University of Dallas campus.
Mr. JENNER. From what source did you hear this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Now, I think it was---I am not sure I think it might have been Larrie or his brother Bob. I am not sure. Larrie declaimed any knowledge of this. I know he had nothing to do with this particular handbill.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He would have told me.
Mr. JENNER. That's the basis for your supposition?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and I saw this handbill, or something similar to it, in the back of a station wagon used by Larrie's brother Bob in transporting----
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was several days after the assassination. There was one crumpled up in the back. And I happened to look through the window and see it. This was in front of the Ducharme Club, as a matter of fact. It was one night. And I saw this. And I saw something "Treason"--I had heard about the handbills.
Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?
Mr. JENNER. From whom, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think it was Larrie. I cannot be hundred percent sure. I did not take too much interest in it at the time. But in any case, I did see something resembling this, only it seemed to be a larger picture of President Kennedy. But in any case, it was in the back of a station wagon owned by General Walker, Edwin Walker, or by what---if incorporated, by the corporation he is with, chairman of.
Mr. JENNER. How did you know that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I know that Bob was General Walker's chauffeur, and by seeing this crumpled up in the back, behind the front seat on the floor of the car, I naturally assumed that it had something to do with General Walker. Exactly what or how, or if he had distributed it, I have no idea. I do not have the faintest idea. 1 did not go into it any further, because I felt that everything was past, and I was leaving Dallas anyway. I had made up my mind.

(At this point. Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. When you say you had heard about this matter, that is the handbill, or handbill similar to it, had you heard about that before November 22, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not to my recollection, no.
Mr. JENNER. Shortly after that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And before you left Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with the bringing into existence of this or similar handbills?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None; none whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the possibility of Bob Schmidt having something to do with them under the circumstances you have related, did any others of your group have anything to do with creating this type of literature and distribution of handbills?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None that I know of.
The CHAIRMAN. How about the names of those people who were in on it?
Mr. JENNER. On the handbill?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted at any time with Robert A. Surrey?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. With Robert G. Klause?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. With J. T. Monk?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted at any time with the Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any materials printed--and when I say you, I mean you or your group--while you were in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not that I know of. I personally have no knowledge of anything being printed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of the Lettercraft Printing Co.?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of Ashland Frederick Birchwell?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or have any contact with him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not that I know of. I guess I must have met two or three dozen people. For example, when we went up to Joe Grinnan's office at various times, we would come down and eat in the cafeteria, and there would be somebody sitting with him, and there would be introductions. I never remembered their names, because it was just in passing. I never had any personal contact, really.
Mr. JENNER. Did you meet General Walker at any time while you were in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you meet anybody or know anybody by the name of Mercer?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. While you were in Dallas--Mrs. Clifford or Dorothy Mercer?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Clifford Mercer?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely not.
Mr. JENNER. Among the exhibits we have identified this afternoon is a list of members. Those were the members of CUSA as of that particular time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the changes in membership you have recounted in your testimony this morning, is that correct, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am sorry--I knew I had left something out of one of those. I do not know which exhibit is. But it is the one that says----
Mr. JENNER. I will hand them back to you, and you can tell me. You now have in your hand a sheet of paper.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that sheet of paper came from one of the envelopes we have already marked?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This one here.
Mr. JENNER. The answer is yes?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will mark this sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 1051.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1051 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us in what envelope Commission Exhibit No. 1051 was enclosed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Commission Exhibit No. 1043.
Mr. JENNER. And what is Commission Exhibit No. 1051?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Commission Exhibit No. 1051 was a current membership list as of about January 4, 1963. If you like, I can go over this and tell you who was in no way really associated with it at the time or active.
Mr. DULLES. Membership in CUSA?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In CUSA, yes. It lists Larrie Schmidt, Larry C. Jones, Bernie Weissman, Norman Baker, James Moseley as partners. Members as Ken Glazbrook, Bob Weiss, who was not active after about--at about the time this was printed--these men dropped from the active list. Herb Starr was not active. Chuck McLain was not active. Richard Harsch was not active. Hank Tanaro was not active. Sheila McDonald was not active. And the rest of the list were active in one form or another--some to a much lesser degree than the others.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the 50-odd responses that you received to Commission Exhibit No. 1031, when you went to the post office box on the following Sunday, the 24th of November 1963, did you recognize the names of any of the persons who responded?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None--none at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any response from Jack Ruby?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not under his name.
Mr. JENNER. And you say about a third of those responses were favorable and two-thirds unfavorable.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Insofar as the questions asked on Exhibit--Commission Exhibit No. 1031 are concerned?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. When you said there was no letter in the box under the name of Jack Ruby does that infer that there was one by any other name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, to put it very exact, if I did receive a letter from Jack Ruby, I have no knowledge of it.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to know.
Mr. JENNER. And apart from--I asked you also the general question whether you recognized any names. I would like to add to that---did you recognize in reading over any of those letters or responses any persons, regardless of what name was signed to the document?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess I have had the witness read through an interview with him by the FBI on the 5th of December 1963. You have read that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Does that accurately reflect the interview which the FBI had with you on that day?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It does. The only variance you might find is that at the time I had the interview with the FBI, I did not develop the CUSA story with them. And they did not press the issue, and I did not go into it.
Mr. JENNER. But it does accurately reflect what took place during the course of that interview.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. What you said--it reports it accurately.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; very accurately.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I was using this method in order to shorten the balance of Mr. Weissman's testimony. There are many details here that I wanted to spare the Commission.
I will mark that with the next exhibit number, Commission Exhibit No. 1052.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1052 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence the exhibits which have been identified--I will read the exhibit numbers. Commission Exhibits Nos. 1031 through 1052, both inclusive, with some of the envelopes designated with subletters A, and one of the other documents designated with the subletter B. I ask that those exhibits be admitted in evidence with the exhibit numbers which appear on them, each of which has been recited in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1031 through 1052 inclusive, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. I have no further questions of the witness. Mr. Flannery, do you have anything?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions you would like to ask?
Mr. DULLES. Just one general question. From the questions which have been addressed to you, Mr. Weissman, you have a general idea of what the Commission, the area of search of the Commission is so far as you are concerned.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything occur to you of any significance which you could add or would like to add to the answers you have made to the questions you have already given?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me. please. There is just one thing but it is a question of--it is not a positive identification or anything like that. But on the day I went to the post office to pick up the mail there was a gentleman waiting, observing the box, the post office box in the Dallas post office. Now, Bill Burley was waiting in my car outside, driving around the block because the traffic was quite heavy. I went in with Ken Glazbrook, who had just come to Dallas about a day or so before by bus from the East Coast. He got off a freighter from Sweden. And this individual seemed to be about--I would put him at about 60 years old. And I thought about it since. And I said that might have been Jack Ruby, because he was short enough to be. But my recollection of the individual that followed me, when we subsequently lost in the crowd, and jumped into the car and took off, was that one time not more than 3 feet away from me--though I did not stare into his face, because I did not know if this fellow was going to shoot me or say something.
Mr. JENNER. You were then frightened; were you not?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir. And we went across through traffic and up a street and down a street and lost this individual and jumped into the car and took off back to the apartment. And to this day I do not know whether it was Ruby--because frankly my recollection of the individual on the pictures I have seen of Ruby in the newspapers, they do not seem to jibe--just the size. This fellow was about 5 foot 6 or so. He was wearing tan clothing with a Stetson hat, a tan Stetson hat.
Mr. JENNER. A typical Texas western hat, sometimes called a 10-gallon hat?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right. And this is about the only thing else I have to add.
Mr. JENNER. Did he follow you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He followed us from the box down the steps of the post office to the traffic light. We crossed the street, he walked up the other side of the street adjacent to the post office, directly opposite us. And we were going halfway up and he started to cross the corner. We quickly ran back to the corner, across which we came. At that time Bill had come around the corner in the car, he knew nothing about it, we jumped in, sat down low and went in a straight line, made the turn and went back to the apartment. And I have never seen the individual since.
Mr. DULLES. This post office box from which you were taking the mail, was that box the one that was advertised in the paper?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. So that the number of that box was known.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was. This individual was obviously waiting for me. I did not see him. Ken pointed him out to me. We expected possibly some sort of trouble there. And Ken was walking about 6 feet to the right of me, on another side of the post office tables that are in the middle of the aisle. So if I got in any difficulty he would be there to help. And he noticed this individual and pointed him out to me. And this fellow just followed us right out, and that was that.
Mr. DULLES. As I recall, you fixed the time when you went to the mail box as probably sometime Sunday morning.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Can you be any more definite as to the time Sunday morning when you were there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am almost 100 percent sure it was between 8 and 9 o'clock.
Mr. DULLES. In the morning?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?
Senator COOPER. What age did the man seem to be?
Mr. WEISSMAN. About 60.
Senator COOPER. I have two or three other questions.
Did your organization, CUSA, ever consider violence as a means to reaching its objectives?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This had been--I don't remember exactly. It had been hashed over in skull sessions, so many things come up, and you talk about it and throw it away. These things did come up over the year or so that I was involved in it in Munich, and thrown out. No. In schedules that we had made up, we figured probable political happenings over a period of years, and we took into account there might be a war for example in 1968 or 1970 or 1972, and what would happen before or after, or who would probably be President at that time, and the type of action America would take. But it had never gone any further than a lot of supposition.
Senator COOPER. Did you consider the advertisements in the paper there as possibly inciting to violence under the circumstances?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely not.
Senator COOPER. Was that considered at all?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely not. At least not by me. And nobody ever mentioned it.
Senator COOPER. This group of men that you have named, of which you were one, who formed this CUSA with objectives, both political and business you said?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Was there. any background of writings or theory of any kind upon which you depended? Where did it come from?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Let's see. You are putting me in sort of a box but I will answer you. We read, for example--for example, I did not know I was a conservative until I got to Germany. I just knew how I felt. But I never identified myself with any particular political leaning. I thought I was a Democrat, an independent voter and independent thinker. For example, I voted for Kennedy in 1960 and I would have voted against him in 1964. But this is neither here nor there.
We were asked--not asked--we had a list of required reading. In other words, if you are going to expound the conservative philosophy we figured you should know something about it, a little bit of the background, aside from your own personal feelings. So we read, for example I didn't--I never did find the time to do it-some of the fellows read "Conscience of a Conservative" by Barry Goldwater, one or two books that Barry Goldwater had written, and "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand, which I did not read.
Mr. JENNER. Did the others read them?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I guess Larrie read them, because he suggested these. There were many times when I said yes--I yessed him to death, and did as I pleased. And this is one of the cases.
Senator COOPER. That was about the extent of your reading background?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not completely. In other words, I cannot point to any specific volumes that I read for the specific purpose of giving me a certain background. In other words, I am motivated personally by my own feelings in the situation, and the particular dogma that you might read in a book does not interest me too much.
Senator COOPER. As one of your aims, did you have the purpose of money out of this movement?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Out of the movement itself, no. Out of the business, yes. Because I think it would be foolish to go on the premise that if we would devote ourselves a hundred percent to politics that we could make money at it, because there are laws against it, and in order to survive while you are in politics, you have to have a business interest, managed by yourself part time or by others full time, that can support you while you devote yourself to politics.
Senator COOPER. Was this business interest to be these organizations which you were going to infiltrate and whose treasuries you might capture?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Senator COOPER. Or was it to be--you hoped to develop businesses because of your political influence; is that it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; to put it straight on the record, we had discussed this and what we would do if we came into any of the treasuries of these organizations. We felt that you can incur a lot of legal problems if you are caught taking funds, tax-free funds, and using it for personal gain and so forth. I am sure there are laws against it. Exactly which ones, I do not know. I am sure there are laws against it.
And so we felt there is nothing wrong, and it is done occasionally in government, where occasionally you would use--you would meet someone politically--because generally these are more affluent individuals, people in politics. By dint of their drive they have acquired property or moneys, et cetera. "And these individuals might be willing to invest some of their capital in some up-and-coming young businessmen, young politicians. And we had hoped to get some money this way. Plus the fact, by using our heads, by setting up businesses on our own that would support us in the political goal.
Senator COOPER. Did you study methods of propaganda?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Study methods of propaganda? No; we had discussed ways of bringing about recruitment and so forth, in the way of pamphlets, or things of that nature, but this never got out of the talking stage itself. As a matter of fact----
Senator COOPER. You felt the way to move into political life quickly was to get into these extreme organizations which do use a great deal of propaganda, and are against things?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; in general, we thought these organizations because they grew so quickly, would be relatively unorganized and easy to infiltrate, and this proves to be quite true. They were more or less autonomous within their own regions, and they did not have a national director keeping tabs on everything they did.
I have something here that was made up. It is just a list. I just happened to remember. Publicity tactics, for example--rallies, hangings-these are effigies, I would imagine--demonstrations, picketing, sit-downs, stickers, billboards, boycotts, lectures, songfests, talkathons, telephone campaigns, door-to-door campaigns. Publicity--letters, brochures, pamphlets, booklets, stationery, flags, songs, emblems on blazers, stickers, match covers, billboards, radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, streetcars, taxicabs. Fund-raising would be personal solicitation, get firms to do things free for us, parties, teas, bridges, lectures, assessments, dues, sale of books, pins, buttons, stationery, flags, emblems, match covers, brochures, and pamphlets. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. That was your program?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was our advertising program; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Some of these activities are certainly activities carried on by political parties. But did it ever occur to you that some of the activities which you planned, in fact which you undertook, such as infiltration into an organization, to try to seize control of it, and these methods that you used---do you consider that as in the regular spirit of our system of government?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I would say this, sir.
Senator COOPER. Democratic system you spoke of?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a question of doing something like that or absolutely nothing at all, never getting off the ground. And while my belief would say no, of course not, this is not the way you do it, this is not the way it should be done, but it was expedient at the time to do this. And plus the fact that you certainly could not make these organizations any worse than they were. And as far as I felt, if we could bring them around to our way of thinking or my way of thinking, we could have brought them around to where they were more beneficial to the country rather than detrimental.
Senator COOPER. That is all I want to ask.
The CHAIRMAN. I noticed on the list that you had there of techniques was hanging. Now, you said--you added to that, I think, that that meant hanging in effigy, you assumed. Is that right?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am 100 percent sure, Your Honor, that that is what it meant. In other words, this was just ways to attract attention, and the college students are doing it all the time. It was just sort of tossing it all in a pot and then putting it down on paper.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that not provocative to violence?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No: I think in the context that we meant it, that it was just another way of getting possibly some publicity--like if students in a university do not like their professor, for example, or if they win a football game, they will hang the opposing team in effigy, or the captain, or what have you. And it attracts a certain amount of publicity and talk.
We had to gain recognition in order to accomplish some of the goals that I had stated previously. And this is just another way. In this case, you have to consider us as young men, and effigy hanging, you know, is just part of a young idea.
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you very much, Mr. Weissman. You may be excused. And Mr. Flannery, thank you very much for your cooperation.
If there are any questions you would like to ask, you may feel free to do so now.
Mr. FLANNERY. I have nothing.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

(At this point in the hearing, Chairman Warren left the hearing room and the witness Robert G. Klause entered.)