Perry Russo was Jim Garrison's Conspiracy Witness in the Clay Shaw Trial

Perry Raymond Russo was a witness who was quite willing to give Garrison's investigators the testimony they wanted.

Perry Raymond Russo

"Second" Hypnosis Session

The following is taken from a transcript originally in the files of the Orleans Parish District Attorney — Jim Garrison's office. It is transcribed exactly, with only the correction of minor errors of spelling and punctuation.

To understand the reality of Perry Russo's testimony, one needs to see the progression of statements that led up to this. First were Russo's interviews with the press in Baton Rouge, where he lived. Then there is the interview he did with Andrew (Moo-Moo) Sciambra, a staffer from Garrison's office, in Baton Rouge. Then there is the statement he made in Mercy Hospital under the influence of "truth serum." Finally, there is the transcript of the first hypnosis session on March 1^st, 1967.

This is actually the third hypnosis session, not the second, however it is often referred to as the "second" because no transcript from the actual second hypnosis session (on March 9^th) exists. To further complicate matters, Jim Garrison switched the two extant transcripts when he turned his copies over to the House Select Committee. Some Garrison supporters accept his ordering of the transcripts, since it tends to conceal the degree to which Fatter led Russo into describing "Bertrand" at the "assassination party" participating in a plot to kill JFK.

In the following transcript, "Q." is Dr. Esmond Fatter, and "A." is Perry Russo.

You may wish to see an annotated version of this transcript with explanatory notes.

Q.	As you go down each step of this staircase let yourself go down deeper and deeper. And when you get to the bottom of that staircase lift up the index finger and go deeper and deeper as you go down each step slowly and when you hit the bottom landing you will be very deeply asleep. That's right deeper and deeper. That's right, now look up the hall, Perry, and about fifty feet up the hall I'd like for you to walk and in front of that door. When you get in front of that door, lift up your index finger. That's right now, Perry, this door is the entrance to a time tunnel. You needn't worry about it because we're all here and we'll take good care of you. I'm here, Andy's here, Al's here and we're all going to take good care of you. You are going into the time tunnel and you feel that spinning and you spin and spin and the time tunnel will throw you out September 1, 1963. September 1, 1963, it happens to be a Sunday and when the time tunnel throws you out Sunday, September 1, 1963, lift up the index finger of your right hand. Spinning and spinning and spinning, that's right now you are very comfortable in 1963.
Q.	What year is it now, Perry?
A.	1963
Q.	And what month is it, Perry?
A.	September
Q.	What day is it, Perry?
A.	1st
Q.	You will have all the experiences that you want to on September 1, 1963. And where are you, Perry?
A.	Home
Q.	And what are you doing?
A.	Reading
Q.	And what are you reading about, Perry?
A.	Plato
Q.	You continue to read Plato and enjoy it and now Perry as time goes on each day you relive to the fullest all of your experiences and when you have met and contacted and been with any of the following people, I'd like for you to describe it completely and thoroughly in detail as you re-live these experiences and the people that you may have met and contacted and been with is: LEFTY PETERSON SANDRA MOFFETT TIM KIRSCHINSTEIN GERALD KIRSCHINSTEIN KENNY CARTER AL SAISSON AL LANDRY DAVE FERRIE CLAY BERTRAND LEON OSWALD JULIAN BUZNEDO MANUEL DAVE FERRIE's roommate Any of these people that you contacted, tell us about and now in September the 2nd, what day is that?
A.	I don't know.
Q.	You go ahead and re-live all of the experiences in relationship to these people in September, 1963, and as you contact these people, lift the index finger of your right hand and tell us about it.
A.	I'm home and KENNY CARTER came over EDWARD KING and SPOON and JOE COOK, they had just finished working out.
Q.	Yes
A.	And we talked.
Q.	What are you talking about, Perry?
A.	Basketball, They're suppose to play St. Augustine. It's suppose to be a tournament.
Q.	That's right and time continues on now doesn't it. And what part of September are you in now, Perry?
A.	September 7
Q.	And what's going on?
A.	Timmy's over and Dave's over, we're just shooting the breeze.
Q.	And what is some of that breeze that's being shot?
A.	Timmy's talking about school and Dave's trying to help him to tell him what to do and Dave called me earlier on the phone and told me to come bring some stuff over and he brought over some stuff but he couldn't show it to me because Timmy was there.
Q.	What stuff did he bring?
A.	Some f___ [sic] films but we didn't have a projector.
Q.	And time continues to go on, what day is it now?
A.	September 11.
Q.	And what are you doing now?
A.	Going to Dave's house.
Q.	And where is this?
A.	Uptown, near Washington Avenue.
Q.	And what are you doing?
A.	Just dropping in, me and Lefty.
Q.	And what is Dave doing now?
A.	He's in the back.
Q.	And who else is there?
A.	Just us.
Q.	And time continues to go on and what day is it now, Perry?
A.	September 13.
Q.	And where are you now?
A.	Dave's house.
Q.	And what is Dave doing?
A.	Why he brought me here.
Q.	And who else is there?
A.	Roommate
Q.	And you can describe in detail the entire happening.
A.	His roommate was sitting down when we walked in and Dave told me not to worry about him, his roommate was funny and he said this wouldn't bother me though.
Q.	And I wonder what his roommate's name is.
A.	Leon.
Q.	Leon? Does Leon have a last name?
A.	Oswald.
Q.	And what's going on now?
A.	Dave went into the kitchen to get something to drink and the place was in a wreck. I'm sitting down.
Q.	Who else is there with you?
A.	Nobody.
Q.	And time continues to go on, what day is it now, Perry?
A.	September 16.
Q.	And where are you?
A.	Home.
Q.	What day is it?
A.	September 16.
Q.	Yes, what day of the week is it?
A.	I don't know.
Q.	And what are you doing now, Perry?
A.	I'm waiting for Lefty.
Q.	[illegible]
A.	Waiting for Lefty, I'm inside apartment. I'm pissed off at Lefty because he's not here. We are suppose to go up to Dave's and he never showed up yet but he has a car.
Q.	And?
A.	He finally got there and then we left and we had to go pick up Sandra and she's always late. After we picked her up we went to Dave's house.
Q.	And who all else is there?
A.	Everybody.
Q.	Go on and name them for me.
A.	Dave and me and his roommate and some other people I never met.
Q.	Describe them for me, these other people that you've never met.
A.	Well, they had this young guy Indian American (?) [sic] that's the guy he's going with and a big guy and some Spanish guys.
Q.	And what's going on now, Perry?
A.	Everybody's just sitting around drinking, laughing and listening to the record player.
Q.	What's the name of this big guy?
A.	I didn't know his name when I got there.
Q.	Is he a brunette or a blonde?
A.	He has white hair.
Q.	White hair, what is the big white-haired guy's name?
A.	Dave told me his name was Clem.
Q.	Clem?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	Clem what?
A.	Bertrand.
Q.	Look around to see if Julian is there.
A.	That's one of Dave's friends.
Q.	Is he there?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	And how about Manuel?
A.	[illegible]
Q.	Is he there?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	And what are they doing?
A.	Sitting down and getting up going to the back, everybody is fooling around.
Q.	I wonder what they're drinking.
A.	Beer, not everybody.
Q.	Is it morning or evening?
A.	Oh, it's late at night.
Q.	About what time.
A.	Lefty didn't get off till 8:00, I guess about 10:30, they don't have a clock.
Q.	What is Bertrand saying?
A.	Everybody is just talking and listening to records, talking and drinking, laughing. He didn't say much.
Q.	Were any important people mentioned here in this conversation?
A.	President Kennedy.
Q.	I wonder what's being said about President Kennedy?
A.	Laughing and Dave has some clippings and pictures.
Q.	And what is Dave doing with those clippings and pictures?
A.	He has them in a folder.
Q.	And who is he showing them to?
A.	He's just talking and holding them up and laughs.
Q.	And what is he saying?
A.	"To hell with him" and laughs.
Q.	He's saying "to hell with him" and laughing?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	And what else is he saying?
A.	He's talking to everybody, everybody's talking.
Q.	What are some of the things that are being said? Anybody that you can hear.
A.	Lefty said that everybody's nuts and Sandra wants to go home.
Q.	Lefty said that everybody's was nuts and Sandra wants to go home?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	And?
A.	Julian speaks English but he's not speaking English, he's speaking Spanish or some other language but it has to be Spanish and Clem is irritated by them all.
Q.	Who is irritated by them all?
A.	Clem.
Q.	Clem is irritated by them all. What is Clem saying? How does Clem express his irritation?
A.	He's some important guy Dave told me and he's dressed good and the rest of them aren't dressed good. The rest of them are bums or nuts and he is the only one dressed good.
Q.	And what is Clem doing now?
A.	Sitting down.
Q.	I wonder how angry got?
A.	He got angry at all the noise. And every once in a while he would say something to Dave about it.
Q.	And what is he saying to Dave?
A.	Get the f______ [sic] people out of here.
Q.	I wonder why?
A.	He doesn't like noise.
Q.	And where is Dave's roommate?
A.	Ah, he's here.
Q.	And what is he saying?
A.	I don't know, I don't talk to him.
Q.	I wonder why you don't talk to Dave's roommate?
A.	He doesn't like me.
Q.	And what is Dave's roommate holding in his hand?
A.	He is in the back.
Q.	Is anybody saying anything about this important person?
A.	Dave.
Q.	What is Dave saying about this important person?
A.	Dave doesn't like this President Kennedy. Dave used to come over to my house and tell me. Now, he's telling everybody else the same thing.
Q.	What doesn't he like about President Kennedy?
A.	[illegible]
Q.	Dave must have had some feelings for Castro when he is saying that?
A.	Dave liked Castro.
Q.	What is he saying about Castro?
A.	He is saying Castro is the best thing that came into the Western Hemisphere, and he says one day, Castro will be in the United States and if we can get rid of everybody here, we will be a lot better off.
Q.	And what else?
A.	Dave says Kennedy is smart. He says he is dead or he will be dead.
Q.	Where did you see Bertrand before this party?
A.	Nashville.
Q.	How long ago?
A.	Two years.
Q.	What was he doing in Nashville?
A.	Just walking around.
Q.	And who is he talking to at the Nashville Street Wharf?
A.	A friend of his.
Q.	Would you describe this friend of his for me?
A.	He was big, but he wasn't as tall as Bertrand, he had brown or black hair, brown or so on his back.
Q.	And what else is being said in Dave's Apartment?
A.	Everybody is leaving.
Q.	Has Dave's roommate come back from the kitchen yet?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	And what is he doing now?
A.	He is sitting down.
Q.	What does he have in his hand?
A.	Nothing.
Q.	And what else is Dave saying about the President Kennedy?
A.	Dave says he is very smart.
Q.	And what else?
A.	He says smart people die, and he starts telling me all the history books and he tells me about all history and how all the smart people, like Alexander the Great, and everybody from this time die and he says Kennedy will die too.
Q.	How did he say Kennedy will die?
A.	He will be shot.
Q.	I wonder by whom?
A.	He didn't say.
Q.	Did he say when the President would be shot?
A.	He says it won't be long, and I joked and called him a Criswell.
Q.	What?
A.	I joked and said you thing you are a Criswell or something.
Q.	And?
A.	And he laughed and he said it won't be long. Mark my words.
Q.	Is Bertrand still there?
A.	He stayed after everybody left.
Q.	Did Bertrand hear this too?
A.	Uh huh. They got into a big argument.
Q.	And what were they saying in this argument?
A.	This was before, because Bertrand was pissed-off at everybody being there and I don't think he likes me either.
Q.	I wonder why Bertrand doesn't like you?
A.	Cause he kept telling Ferrie why all these people were here and I just figured he meant me and Sandra.
Q.	Are you leaving the apartment now?
A.	No.
Q.	Well, tell me what else is going on.
A.	Everybody is gone.
Q.	Who left?
A.	The young boys, all the Spanish guys, except Julian. He said he would be back, and Sandra left and me stayed.
Q.	And where are you?
A.	Sitting down.
Q.	And who else is in the apartment?
A.	Clem, Leon, Dave, Lefty, Sandra, and one of the guys is trying to put the make on Sandra.
Q.	What is he telling Sandra.
A.	He tried all during the party.
Q.	[illegible]
A.	Sitting over in the corner.
Q.	Describe him for me. Take a good look at him. Start at the top of his head and describe him.
A.	He is dirty. He has brown hair and he's got a beard on, old dirty clothes and rubber tennis shoes.
Q.	How tall would you say he was?
A.	He's shorter than Clem.
Q.	Shorter than who?
A.	Clem. Oh, 5'10'' or 11''.
Q.	5'10'' or 11''.
A.	Right.
Q.	I wonder how heavy is Dave's roommate's beard? Take a good look at it and tell me. Is it beard or hair?
A.	The guys at school call it a beard, but they just haven't shaved.
Q.	I wonder where Dave's roommate comes from?
A.	I don't know, Dave never told me.
Q.	Is the roommate married?
A.	He was.
Q.	Who was he married to?
A.	Margerite
Q.	I wonder how you come to find out how Dave's roommate was married and his wife's name was Margerite?
A.	Dave told me when we drove up.
Q.	Is there a rifle or a pistol in the room? Take a good look and see.
A.	The place is in a wreck. Everything is upside down and moved around.
Q.	Look around and see if there is a rifle or pistol present.
A.	There was one.
Q.	What was it, a pistol or a rifle?
A.	A rifle.
Q.	Take a look at the rifle and describe it.
A.	It's not here right now.
Q.	Where did you see it?
A.	When I first met the roommate.
Q.	And where are you now Perry?
A.	I am in school.
Q.	In school? And what day is it?
A.	September 26.
Q.	And who are you with?
A.	By myself.
Q.	Where did you see Dave's roommate last?
A.	He was leaving.
Q.	What day is that?
A.	October 7.
Q.	October 7?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	Where are you now? It is October 7.
A.	At Dave's.
Q.	Who's there?
A.	The roommate.
Q.	Who else?
A.	That's all.
Q.	And what's going on?
A.	The roommate's leaving.
Q.	The roommate's leaving?
A.	He has all his luggage packed up.
Q.	All of his luggage is packed up. I wonder where he is leaving?
A.	Houston.
Q.	Where is he going in Houston?
A.	He didn't say, he doesn't talk to me.
Q.	Who talked to him?
A.	Dave.
Q.	What did Dave tell him?
A.	They just talked, shook hands, and just shot the breeze.
Q.	What's the breeze that was shot?
A.	Dave asked if he had anybody to meet him?
Q.	[illegible]
A.	Dave said, is everything prepared for you in Houston and wants to know if you need any money? And Leon said, no. He don't need any money, I will write you if I need some, and Leon asked Dave if he was coming over, and Dave said he would later.
Q.	Yes, and continue with the breeze.
A.	And Dave asked (he yawned).
Q.	Continue relating some of this breeze.
A.	Dave does most of the talking.
Q.	And what is he saying?
A.	Dave says goodbye and picked up his luggage. Dave's holding his luggage and is going to give him a ride.
Q.	Describe the luggage to me.
A.	It's cheap, it's not leather, its heavy, it uh, uh, canvas, like a schoolbag.
Q.	What kind of ticket does he have, a train ticket?
A.	A bus.
Q.	A bus? I wonder what time of day it is?
A.	Afternoon, I had just ate.
Q.	I wonder who got Dave's roommate's bus ticket?
A.	Dave.
Q.	And I wonder what bus line he bought those tickets from?
A.	Greyhound.
Q.	I wonder when Dave bought those tickets?
A.	I don't know.
Q.	Is there anything of much importance in Dave's luggage?
A.	It's cheap. He's changed and he's clean now.
Q.	Did he put his rifle in there too?
A.	No.
Q.	Did he put his pistol in there?
A.	He put the pistol in.
Q.	I wonder what happened to the rifle.
A.	He has it in a case.
Q.	I wonder what kind of case it's in. Take a look at that case?
A.	[illegible]
Q.	Describe the case for me. Take a good look at the case and describe that case in detail, describe every mark that's on that case.
A.	It is made out of it looks like leather, but it's not. It's not as long as the gun and it's about two feet long and it looks like a pool case for a pool stick. It has a zipper and it was tied on.
Q.	It was what?
A.	It was tied on.
Q.	What was tied on?
A.	The small leather case.
Q.	Tied onto what?
A.	To the big one, on the outside.
Q.	Look at the case and tell me what stickers are on there.
A.	None, it's new.
Q.	I wonder where the roommate's wife it now.
A.	I guess she's in Houston.
Q.	Is there any talk about someone living on Magazine Street?
A.	No.
Q.	Did you see Dave's roommate between September 16 and October [illegible]. If you did lift the index finger of the right hand. You did see Dave's roommate between September 16 and October [illegible]. Let yourself go back to the exact time, what date is it?
A.	September 28.
Q.	Describe September 28, re-live September 28 and describe it to me in detail.
A.	It's about 11:00. I just came in from school where I was staying because Dave lives up at the school and has an argument. I should've gone home, I think.
Q.	You can go ahead, Perry.
A.	I was pissed off at Dave and when he came there he slapped his head and he said "F___ you" [sic].
Q.	Who did Dave say that to?
A.	Dave didn't say that.
Q.	Who said that?
A.	Leon.
Q.	And what, he told that to Dave?
A.	[illegible]
Q.	I wonder why he was mad.
A.	Something about his wife. He said he was going home.
Q.	I wonder where he was going.
A.	He didn't say. Dave wanted him to stay.
Q.	What was Dave saying about Leon's wife.
A.	Leon said it.
Q.	What did Leon say?
A.	Margurite [sic] was pissed off, mad. Dave said, I'll take care of it, now just calm down. She can't calm down, she's mad. I don't know what the f___ [sic] she's going to do. So Dave said just let it go, I'll handle it. And I walked in and I didn't know what was going on until this day.
Q.	Who else is in the room?
A.	Just us.
Q.	I wonder if anybody is talking about Ruth Baine?
A.	No.
Q.	Is anybody talking about Mexico?
A.	No.
Q.	No?
A.	No.
Q.	Inaudible
A.	Greyhound.
Q.	What's being said.....
A.	Nothing, I just said I'd go and come back alter.
Q.	It's the 28th of September is it not, Perry?
A.	I don't know.
Q.	Go deeper and deeper into sleep and time goes on until the next time you saw Dave's roommate, when you do lift up the index finger of your right hand. What date is it?
A.	October 7.
Q.	All right, go deeper into the sleep. I wonder if you ever saw Clem again after the 16th, if you have, lift up your index finger after the 16th of September if you saw Bertrand lift up the index finger and then the picture will come to you. What day is it?
A.	March [illegible]
Q.	[illegible]
A.	1964.
Q.	And what were you doing?
A.	I had car trouble.
Q.	And go deeper into the sleep deeper and deeper. We are going back again to September 16. We are going all the way back to September 16. We are going all the way back to September 16. If you were in Dave's apartment, lift up the index finger. If the conversation was about President Kennedy, I would like for you to listen to their conversation and tell us every word that was spoken. And who spoke the words?
A.	Dave did most of the talking. Dave and Clem and Leon they didn't do much talking. Dave did most of the talking.
Q.	Yes.
A.	Dave did most of the talking. All the stuff he said before and more of the same stuff. He said it was so easy to do it and said if we did it we would need three people at three different locations in a crossfire and I left in time before and you have to get out and you have to make sure you get out of the confusion and be able to leave and the easiest way to get out is to fly. He said he could fly. He could fly to Cuba or to fly to Mexico and then on to Brazil and then Clem got pissed off and he said you couldn't fly to Mexico and then on to Brazil because he said that if you had a big airplane with a lot of gasoline, the authorities in Texas would stop you.
Q.	Who is saying that?
A.	Clem. He said you have to fly to Cuba.
Q.	Is that Clem Bertrand?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	Yes.
A.	And the roommate got pissed off and everybody is pissed off. I don't think he likes Clem. He didn't like anybody.
Q.	I wonder why he didn't like Clem?
A.	I think they were "mothers", Ferrie and the roommate, he used to make Ferrie feel good.
Q.	I wonder what was said of a diversionary shot?
A.	He had three men at the crossfire. One of them was the key, and two is diversionary or one is diversionary and one man to be sacrificed.
Q.	Who did they say had to be sacrificed?
A.	One man.
Q.	Was that man there?
A.	[illegible]
Q.	I wonder where they were going to get the money to do this with?
A.	Clem. He's got money.
Q.	Are you saying that Clem is going to finance this?
A.	No.
Q.	How do you know that Clem is going to finance this?
A.	I don't, but he was the only one there who had money because he dressed good.
Q.	And now, Perry, I'd like for you to go back and listen to Clem Bertrand talking and as you listen to Clem Bertrand talking, relay to me what Clem Bertrand says.
A.	He's arguing with Ferrie. He's mad. And he asked Ferrie, do you want this to be successful or you don't. I am going to leave it up to you or I'll pull out of this altogether and Ferrie says he knows what he is doing. He will handle this and he will do the flying. He said he was talking up the wrong street because you don't know what you are talking about anyway and the roommate told Clem to shut up. He said he didn't know what he was talking about. He said let him handle it. Clem says he's a washed-out pot and Ferrie got real mad cause Ferrie really shows it when he is mad.
Q.	Yes. And then?
A.	And Ferrie said whoever is elected, the rest will either have to disappear or move out and establish alibis. They have to be seen and they have to be in public. And Clem says I know where I'll be.
Q.	Yes.
A.	Ferrie says I will be making a speech on the day of the assassination. I plan to make a speech or something.
Q.	Yes. I wonder where Leon said he would make a speech that day?
A.	No, Ferrie.
Q.	Ferrie was going to make a speech? I wonder where?
A.	College, at Southeastern.
Q.	At Southeastern?
A.	A speech or something.
Q.	Did Clem say where he was going to be on the day of the assassination?
A.	He said he would be traveling. Clem's going to go to the coast.
Q.	Yes. You can go ahead. And Clem was going to be where?
A.	He was going to go to the coast.
Q.	[illegible]
A.	On business.
Q.	What kind of business?
A.	Just company, I guess.
Q.	That's right, go deeper and deeper relaxed. We're going back now to September 28. When you get to September 28, the index finger on your right hand will lift. Now where are you?
A.	At Dave's.
Q.	Who's there? What's his roommate's name? Who?
A.	Leon.
Q.	You are very deeply relaxed. Was Leon supposed to leave that day?
A.	What day?
Q.	The 28th of September.
A.	He said he was going home.
Q.	Where is his home?
A.	I don't know.
Q.	He was going home on the [illegible]?
A.	Uh huh.
Q.	Deeper relaxed. And [illegible]re going in time until we get to October 7, 1963. When you get to October 7, lift up your index finger. Had Dave's roommate been out of the country?
A.	That's what Dave said.
Q.	Where was he?
A.	Mexico.
Q.	What day did Dave say he went down to Mexico?
A.	End of September.
Q.	And when did he return?
A.	He didn't say.
Q.	I wonder what he went to Mexico for?
A.	He didn't say.
Q.	That's right. Go back deeper relaxed. Any time you want to, you can permit yourself to become calm, cool, and collected. I want you to know that you have a task that you have voluntarily gone into. You can let yourself do this task well, you can let yourself and you will be amazed as how acute your memory will be in the next few weeks. Days will seem to pop into your mind and it will be only the truth as you saw it. And it will be nothing more or nothing less. And you can permit these starts to come into your mind exactly as you have seen them without fear, without remorsefulness. That's right, cause all you will be doing is telling the truth, Perry, as you see it, nothing more or nothing less. Now when you get ready, Perry, I'd like for you to count to five out loud. There's no rush about it. When you count to five, let your eyes spring wide open becoming wide awake and I'd like you to open your eyes with a smile on your face. Remember, now that you have a task that you, yourself, have elected to perform. You can do it well and you will do it well. And remember, Perry, the truth always wins out. There is no question about that in my mind and you may also find that to be true also. Whenever you are ready, count to five, let your eyes spring wide open and you will be wide awake.

You may wish to see:

Return to Kennedy Assassination Home Page